Mike Keiser to buy World Woods?

[Rob Marshall]

Just read a post on another site that the rumor in Tampa is that Keiser is going to buy World Woods. I haven't been there in years but I always enjoyed playing there with my father. It true that would be great news. I've heard conditions there recently have been less that ideal.

[Tom_Doak]

Not quite true.  He might be a partner in the deal, but he’s not the main protagonist.

[Rob Marshall]

Not quite true.  He might be a partner in the deal, but he’s not the main protagonist.

Thanks for the clarification Tom.

[Mike Feeney]

As a fan of WW and it's potential, TD handiwork there would be fantastic.  Tom?

[Rob Marshall]

As a fan of WW and it's potential, TD handiwork there would be fantastic.  Tom?

LOL, I was going to ask that..............

[M. Shea Sweeney]

Ironically potentially a bit sad for some..a raw place that is a great spot to get lost and play. will likely become amazing and great folks will do great work.


lots of jobs in the cooker, interesting to see how it all plays out this time around.

[Ronald Montesano]

Why does work need to be done at World Woods?


Asking for a friend.

[Tim_Weiman]

Would be interesting to know what they plan to do with the place. I played both courses when they first opened. Didn’t think they were bad, but for some reason I was never compelled to return.

[Mike Feeney]

Ron's implied point is well-taken. 

Probably not extensive restoration/renovation work needed.  My understanding is both WW courses have decayed over the years -- which has kept me away. Always wondered why routing, of both PB & RO, were not more walker-friendly.   

Keiser's destination business model would be impactful - the remoteness/lack of lodging/F&B has been the biggest inhibitor to WW economic success.

[Joe Hancock]

Would be interesting to know what they plan to do with the place. I played both courses when they first opened. Didn’t think they were bad, but for some reason I was never compelled to return.

This point is also well taken.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I've played WW half a dozen times over the years and watched steady decline in conditioning on the golf courses and in the little clubhouse. It could use a face lift. I have always enjoyed the courses. It has a wonderful practice facility and when it first opened a lot of tour players practiced there.

[Tom_Doak]

As a fan of WW and it's potential, TD handiwork there would be fantastic.  Tom?

No, I turned down the job to redesign Rolling Oaks; the land just didn’t speak to me.  And I’ve got a bunch of other projects I’m committed to, including one for that same client.

[Bryan Izatt]

As a fan of WW and it's potential, TD handiwork there would be fantastic.  Tom?

No, I turned down the job to redesign Rolling Oaks; the land just didn’t speak to me.  And I’ve got a bunch of other projects I’m committed to, including one for that same client.

I've been going to WW for years on my way to and back from south west FL.  I've always found it to be good courses in decent conditions while not being Florida flat pond country.  I even enjoy the rustic nature of the place and the neighbourhood.  The decline over the years has had more to do with the cart paths, the carts themselves and the clubhouse rather than the condition of the courses themselves.  In December, after the overseed they're OK and then better in March as it warms up.  I've always gravitated to Pine Barrens over Rolling Oak for reasons I can't really articulate - maybe to do with a course that feels different in style and setting than what I play here in the great white north.  It'd be a shame if it gets turned into another destination resort with eye-watering fees like Streamsong.  There is room for both types of places and the green fees as WW at about 20% of those at Streamsong is certainly attractive if you want to do multiple plays.


Re the bolded quote from above, I'd be interested in what went into that thought.  Rolling Oak is a pretty sandy site with some reasonable elevation change and some old growth trees.  What more (other than an ocean bordering the land) would be required for the land to speak to you.  I guess I always found the site to be attractive for golfing as it is quite different from our northern climes and way better than the flat palm tree and pond south Florida.  I get the too busy part of the quote as a reason to turn down the job, but not the part that the land is somehow lacking to do good work.

[Anthony Gray]

 Is it 18 that kills a left to right hitter or 17 and 18. I hated the finish.

[jeffwarne]

As a fan of WW and it's potential, TD handiwork there would be fantastic.  Tom?

No, I turned down the job to redesign Rolling Oaks; the land just didn’t speak to me.  And I’ve got a bunch of other projects I’m committed to, including one for that same client.

I've been going to WW for years on my way to and back from south west FL.  I've always found it to be good courses in decent conditions while not being Florida flat pond country.  I even enjoy the rustic nature of the place and the neighbourhood.  The decline over the years has had more to do with the cart paths, the carts themselves and the clubhouse rather than the condition of the courses themselves.  In December, after the overseed they're OK and then better in March as it warms up.  I've always gravitated to Pine Barrens over Rolling Oak for reasons I can't really articulate - maybe to do with a course that feels different in style and setting than what I play here in the great white north.  It'd be a shame if it gets turned into another destination resort with eye-watering fees like Streamsong.  There is room for both types of places and the green fees as WW at about 20% of those at Streamsong is certainly attractive if you want to do multiple plays.

I agree with Bryan.
I've always enjoyed my time at World Woods. Fun, sandy soil and sandily adorned,strategic enough courses in decent enough condition in a cool rustic setting.
 Do we really care if a trailer(clubhouse) has deteriorated a bit? I've always been able to get a good sandwich, a cold beer and usually an attractive friendly smile in a comfortable setting
The courses are definitely cartball, so unless they are going to blow them up and start over,they'll stay cartball.
A fancy clubhouse and accompanying fancy green fee after a blowup redo have minimal appeal to me, but I understand the attraction of a developer doing so.
I know it's now not what the original developers envisioned but I've always enjoyed my time there, certainly far more(especially for the $$$) than its upscale weirdly modern hoteled inland semi neigbor, despite their architecturally excellent two(now three-the third I have not seen) courses.
Mike Shea Sweeney kind've summed it up.
It serves a niche, and has its fans.
That said, based on his track record,I'm sure the developer(amazed it's still a secret around here) will improve the courses tremendously in both architecture and conditioning, so that will serve another niche.

[Adam G]

I have heard that it is not Keiser but instead Ben Cowan-Dewar, his partner at Cabot.

[Tom_Doak]

Re the bolded quote from above, I'd be interested in what went into that thought.  Rolling Oak is a pretty sandy site with some reasonable elevation change and some old growth trees.  What more (other than an ocean bordering the land) would be required for the land to speak to you.  I guess I always found the site to be attractive for golfing as it is quite different from our northern climes and way better than the flat palm tree and pond south Florida.  I get the too busy part of the quote as a reason to turn down the job, but not the part that the land is somehow lacking to do good work.

Well I didn’t say the last bit you assumed, or anything like it.  I just said it didn’t speak to ME.


In general, I’d rather do new work than renovations.  I spent a couple of days trying to find a different routing for Rolling Oaks I liked better, but the trees have grown so much in thirty years’ time that I couldn’t see better alternatives that didn’t involve a ton of clearing.  That’s not as appealing as something like The National in Australia, where there were perfect green sites lying in the open, and the existing routing was obviously bad.


Actually I don’t think the routing of Rolling Oaks is bad at all.  That was the problem.  I’m just not into doing a makeover when there are so many new jobs on offer.

[Ryan Farrow]

Why does work need to be done at World Woods?


Asking for a friend.

Because it's a pretty lousy golf course. The greens make no sense to me, the strategy is poor, the obvious cuts made to build the course reminded me of the 60' - 70's.  It was overhyped, the Pine Valley of the south, I don't think so.

[Bryan Izatt]

Re the bolded quote from above, I'd be interested in what went into that thought.  Rolling Oak is a pretty sandy site with some reasonable elevation change and some old growth trees.  What more (other than an ocean bordering the land) would be required for the land to speak to you.  I guess I always found the site to be attractive for golfing as it is quite different from our northern climes and way better than the flat palm tree and pond south Florida.  I get the too busy part of the quote as a reason to turn down the job, but not the part that the land is somehow lacking to do good work.

Well I didn’t say the last bit you assumed, or anything like it.  I just said it didn’t speak to ME.


In general, I’d rather do new work than renovations.  I spent a couple of days trying to find a different routing for Rolling Oaks I liked better, but the trees have grown so much in thirty years’ time that I couldn’t see better alternatives that didn’t involve a ton of clearing.  That’s not as appealing as something like The National in Australia, where there were perfect green sites lying in the open, and the existing routing was obviously bad.


Actually I don’t think the routing of Rolling Oaks is bad at all.  That was the problem.  I’m just not into doing a makeover when there are so many new jobs on offer.

Thanks for the further insights.  Sorry for the inference/assumption - it's easy to read things wrong in short posts.  It did occur to me that rerouting it would be a big job given the many mature trees.

[Bryan Izatt]

Why does work need to be done at World Woods?


Asking for a friend.

Because it's a pretty lousy golf course. The greens make no sense to me, the strategy is poor, the obvious cuts made to build the course reminded me of the 60' - 70's.  It was overhyped, the Pine Valley of the south, I don't think so.

Wow, Ryan, that's pretty harsh!  Who knew Fazio so missed the boat as to design two lousy courses on one property.  Are you speaking of Pine Barrens or Rolling Oak or both. Rolling Oak was supposedly in honour of Augusta and hence the somewhat wilder greens.  Anyway, different strokes for different folks.

[Ronald Montesano]

Ryan Farrow...your opinion of "it's a pretty lousy golf course" is interesting to me. First, "it" is two golf courses, so I'd love to know which one you reference. Second, the others on this thread have yet to utter a word similar to "lousy." I'm not discounting your opinion; I love a rogue opinion that turns out to be the correct one, so...


Can you elaborate on both points? Thanks in advance...rm

[Rob Marshall]

It’s been at least 15 years since I’ve been there but Pine Barron’s is far from a lousy golf course. I think TD had it a 6 or 7 if I remember.

[Kyle Harris]

I played golf with Ryan that day. We only played Pine Barrens and his critiques of the golf course are similar to mine. The routing is just plain bad. The greens are often divorced from anything going on from the tee (the 6th hole is among the more egregious examples).


The much spoke of Strategy of the 4th hole lays down if you can carry a tee shot 250 yards. A hole where the best play is 250 down the middle is hardly strategic. The more strategic Par 5 is the 14th… by far.


PB has the best Par 3 (10), Par 4 (8th), and Par 5 (14) on the property yet fails to remain cohesive enough to capitalize on that.


Pine Barrens does not pass the “walk in the park” test. Rolling Oaks does. The back nine of Rolling Oaks is as good of a routing that can exist on a golf course. I’ll often play Rolling Oaks back to back on visits. I’ll never play Pine Barrens twice in a row.

[jeffwarne]

I played golf with Ryan that day. We only played Pine Barrens and his critiques of the golf course are similar to mine. The routing is just plain bad. The greens are often divorced from anything going on from the tee (the 6th hole is among the more egregious examples).


The much spoke of Strategy of the 4th hole lays down if you can carry a tee shot 250 yards. A hole where the best play is 250 down the middle is hardly strategic. The more strategic Par 5 is the 14th… by far.


PB has the best Par 3 (10), Par 4 (8th), and Par 5 (14) on the property yet fails to remain cohesive enough to capitalize on that.


Pine Barrens does not pass the “walk in the park” test. Rolling Oaks does. The back nine of Rolling Oaks is as good of a routing that can exist on a golf course. I’ll often play Rolling Oaks back to back on visits. I’ll never play Pine Barrens twice in a row.

Funny, I always preferred Rolling Oaks as well.
Not sure if "the land spoke to me" or it was just less crowded, but I really liked the feel of the place(maybe it's because I'm from Augusta )
World Woods was a big step in the right direction, it's just that architecture. architectural taste and golf itself have evolved quite a bit since the 80's.
I am confident the new finished product will be far better(when judged by today's standards) but let's not discount that WW was a prety good place for its time, especially given the destination resort/daily fee choices, and new build architecture/developments of the era.

[SB]

Interesting.


For a group of people who consider it sacrilege to modify Golden Age courses, everyone is sure eager to take out the scalpel (or bulldozer) to something a little more recent.  Since WW was ranked in the top 100 for many years, it's not because of the quality of the course, but because of changing tastes. 


Will all of you be so eager to hack up the current favorites in 20 years when rugged bunkers are no longer in style and trees regain their popularity?