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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: If TOC was built today
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2021, 02:50:09 PM »
Isn't there already a "replica" of TOC in Orlando, FL?

https://www.visitflorida.com/travel-ideas/articles/grand-cypress-golf-club/


Sure . . . if you like a Jack Nicklaus version of The Old Course that can only be played through the air, and favors a fade.*


* His version of the Road Hole has a left-to-right green.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: If TOC was built today
« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2021, 02:57:40 PM »

Interesting that even Tom D can only 'hope' that he'd be able to 'see' what he hadn't ever before.

(My sense is that TD thinks more highly of The Loop than even many of his loyal/devoted fans do, what with their 6s and 7s: good scores, yes, but not the extravagant and lavish praise that many of the best new courses get. And yet, has he ever built anything closer to the ethos and aesthetics and specific-kind-of-strategic-yet-random-playability of The Old Course?)


Peter:


I'm just being honest.  Any new course is, and should be, received with a healthy dose of skepticism as to whether it will continue to impress once all the hype is gone.  [And there is plenty of hype for any new course built by any well-known architect today; that's why I used Richard's name in my example.]


I do think The Loop is better than most people think it is.  Honestly, we were too busy working on the reversible parts to even think about features as wild as The Old Course has.  Our client Lew Thompson was never going to go for the deep sod-wall bunkers that enforce the strategic imperatives of The Old Course, or the half-acre-sized greens that soften them for day to day play.  Honestly, I'm not sure I have ever had a client who would sign off on such things; Mike Keiser, to name one, certainly would not.

Brent Carlson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If TOC was built today
« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2021, 03:45:36 PM »



 Is there OB right on the front 9?


Anthony,


There is OB on #1 if you hit it far enough right.  Don't ask me how I know.

Peter Pallotta

Re: If TOC was built today
« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2021, 03:51:54 PM »
"...the deep sod-wall bunkers that enforce the strategic imperatives of The Old Course, or the half-acre-sized greens that soften them for day to day play..."

I am going to steal that, rewrite it to somehow make it seem like my own, and then use it every chance I get in both print and in casual conversation -- so that no one can ever doubt my architectural bona-fides again!!

And just to be clear: what I meant about even you merely hoping you could see what's there in a TOC built for the first time is that it was a much needed check to my own ego and foolishness, i.e. I was quite ready to assume that, just seeing it for the first time, I'd be able appreciate everything about a new TOC, especially the many Par 4s



Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If TOC was built today
« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2021, 05:56:12 PM »
Anytime a course is created that seems to push the golfer to thinking about trajectory and bounces vs yardages, that gives true options with center hazards, is challenging without over use of hazards,  provides abundant variety in the short game, and feels under foot like TOC, golfers will like it no matter where it is and no matter who designs it.


Make the golf compelling with abundant variety, and they'll love it.


But lets just call it like it is.  Aesthetics is how courses are mostly judged, with a little extra credit if the golf is interesting.  Courses like TOC start with the golf, how they look comes second.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2021, 06:30:01 PM by Don Mahaffey »

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If TOC was built today
« Reply #30 on: December 17, 2021, 09:47:46 PM »
Don,

In terms of just the golf,  seems like Wolf Point may be the closest thing to a TOC in the states...

Gib_Papazian

Re: If TOC was built today
« Reply #31 on: December 18, 2021, 01:10:20 AM »
I've always looked at TOC like Fritz Lang's 1927 Metropolis.


Both have stood the test of time despite wild changes to the game and genres.


Metropolis was made before sync dialogue sound.


TOC was built for hickory bats and gutty balls.


Both are seminal in their world - and believe me, modern filmmakers swipe just as many ideas from films like Metropolis (actual visual communication) as architects strongly emulate features and strategies from the headwaters of golf.   

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If TOC was built today
« Reply #32 on: December 18, 2021, 03:36:28 AM »
Perhaps a quality/accurate replica (per the original thread premiss) would spur the development of more reversible courses!? :)
atb

Gib_Papazian

Re: If TOC was built today
« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2021, 10:54:06 AM »
Since I've never played TOC in reverse - and still trying to wrap my skull around it played in traditional order - are there any holes going backwards that are particularly superior or have unique strategic content?


Designing a reversible course looks to me more an academic exercise than designing the best layout all in one routing direction - but a sudden about-face at the end of a round might also encourage some interesting quirk on the rebound.


Have not played TD's creation, but the photos and cards he sent fascinated me, gotta admit.




Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: If TOC was built today
« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2021, 01:09:43 PM »
Since I've never played TOC in reverse - and still trying to wrap my skull around it played in traditional order - are there any holes going backwards that are particularly superior or have unique strategic content?

Designing a reversible course looks to me more an academic exercise than designing the best layout all in one routing direction - but a sudden about-face at the end of a round might also encourage some interesting quirk on the rebound.

Have not played TD's creation, but the photos and cards he sent fascinated me, gotta admit.


Gib:  One big advantage of a reversible course is that a lot of courses would be in better shape if half the divots were in places you weren't likely to hit your drive on a given day.  Another is, if all of the customers stay to play the course the other way around, you only need to find half as many customers who like it.  You should really come and see The Loop one day er, two days.


To answer your question about The Old Course in reverse, personally, I did not find any of those holes to be as compelling as the present direction.  There were a few holes where you were better off playing over into the adjacent fairway to approach a green from the more traditional angle, and a couple more where you almost had to do that -- I suspect that there are some areas like the back of the 1st or 14th greens that would have mowed tight [or grazed tight] if people approached them in that direction more than a couple of days per year.  The backwards 18th [to the Road green] is a tough start and makes you want to play close to the road on the left, but the green is more straightforward from that angle.  The backwards 17th [to 16 green] is also a real bear, but you really have no choice but to play over into #2 fairway and go from there.  Playing over Hill bunker to the 11th green after going up 12 fairway is a scary shot, too.  But there is little of the strategy that makes The Old Course so great when you play it in that direction.

Gib_Papazian

Re: If TOC was built today
« Reply #35 on: December 18, 2021, 01:30:20 PM »
TD,


Interesting, it was the 12th fairway specifically that I was particularly curious about. I guess as a perverse one-off, it might be interesting to play the TOC backwards, but to quote an old friend who also writes books on golf design, "Is it worth crossing an ocean to see?"   ;)   If I'm reasonably upright this summer, I'm in.


My resume (believe it or not) in your neck of the woods is crap - I've never set foot in the State of Michigan, so teeing it up with you at The Loop and the Downs would be quite a memorable thrill.



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Anthony Gray

Re: If TOC was built today
« Reply #36 on: December 18, 2021, 02:11:24 PM »
TD,


Interesting, it was the 12th fairway specifically that I was particularly curious about. I guess as a perverse one-off, it might be interesting to play the TOC backwards, but to quote an old friend who also writes books on golf design, "Is it worth crossing an ocean to see?"   ;)   If I'm reasonably upright this summer, I'm in.


My resume (believe it or not) in your neck of the woods is crap - I've never set foot in the State of Michigan, so teeing it up with you at The Loop and the Downs would be quite a memorable thrill.






 The 12th is mesmerizing. I didn’t understand it until I was told it played in reverse. Which messed me up even more. It’s the hole I want to watch the most during the open. A two or a six can happen with all the pros. It demands skill and luck. Which is good architecture in my opinion. Is it fair? Who cares, it’s fun. It’s pot luck and talent.

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If TOC was built today
« Reply #37 on: December 19, 2021, 06:32:23 AM »
The old course is like the Monaco circuit in formula 1...


It doesn't make any sense considering today's technology... and it the exact reason why it's cool

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If TOC was built today
« Reply #38 on: December 19, 2021, 07:20:16 AM »
The old course is like the Monaco circuit in formula 1...
It doesn't make any sense considering today's technology... and it the exact reason why it's cool
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Oio1zf5NG60 ………. I can sense the yee olde day smell of burnt caster oil as I type, bit like I can sense the sound and feel of a balata ball struck by a persimmon head.
Atb
« Last Edit: December 19, 2021, 07:47:55 AM by Thomas Dai »

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If TOC was built today
« Reply #39 on: December 19, 2021, 09:04:09 AM »
TD,


Interesting, it was the 12th fairway specifically that I was particularly curious about. I guess as a perverse one-off, it might be interesting to play the TOC backwards, but to quote an old friend who also writes books on golf design, "Is it worth crossing an ocean to see?"   ;)   If I'm reasonably upright this summer, I'm in.


My resume (believe it or not) in your neck of the woods is crap - I've never set foot in the State of Michigan, so teeing it up with you at The Loop and the Downs would be quite a memorable thrill.






 The 12th is mesmerizing. I didn’t understand it until I was told it played in reverse. Which messed me up even more. It’s the hole I want to watch the most during the open. A two or a six can happen with all the pros. It demands skill and luck. Which is good architecture in my opinion. Is it fair? Who cares, it’s fun. It’s pot luck and talent.
To me the 12th is what is bad about TOC. The green is too narrow with its shelves to be able to play a good shot that will stay in/on the right place...you have to be lucky. Tee shot to some degree is the same, you need to be lucky not be in a bunker. I almost saw a 1 on this hole, I was by the green a ball from the tee hit the stick hard and stayed about six inches away.


The problem with the reverse course they play today is it is not the one they played 150 years ago. I used to love the thought of the reverse course but I realise now I have studied it more..it is pants. None of the holes are better, there are few equal or not bad and quite a few howlers. The problem with any hole that can be played in multiple direction is there will always be a preferred direction so by default the other is inferior...who wants inferior...the idea is therefore rubbish to try and replicate.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: If TOC was built today
« Reply #40 on: December 19, 2021, 09:51:11 AM »


The problem with any hole that can be played in multiple direction is there will always be a preferred direction so by default the other is inferior...who wants inferior...the idea is therefore rubbish to try and replicate.


Maybe you should come and play The Loop, too.


If you had to pick the ten best holes out of 36, my guess is you’d pick two or three pairs that used the same green from different directions.  Maybe one of those holes is “better” than the other but by nothing like unanimous opinion.  And, obviously, you would not get to experience both holes if I hadn’t made the course reversible.


I thought most people here agreed that you shouldn’t opine on a course (or concept) you hadn’t seen.  Just because you can’t figure it out doesn’t mean it can’t be done well.  In fact, both versions of The Loop are separately rated among the best public courses in America.

V_Halyard

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If TOC was built today
« Reply #41 on: December 19, 2021, 09:43:44 PM »
Too short to be taken seriously. Too many blind shots. Can’t get liability insurance.


All of you, you on the bulldozer, come with me, you're going to jail.
"It's a tiny little ball that doesn't even move... how hard could it be?"  I will walk and carry 'til I can't... or look (really) stupid.