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Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold closing
« Reply #50 on: February 16, 2009, 10:57:39 AM »

Apache Stronghold was one of the first courses I recall reading about when I started following this site extensively in 2000. At that time there was less discussion about conditions just about the excellent design and routing of the golf course. Tommy Naccarato was its biggest fan. Here is the GCA Course Description from back then:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/apache1.html

So Apache Stronghold became a "must see" for me. I got there in 2002 and the course did not disappoint. There are some really excellent holes. The second through the sixth are terrific, and the stretch between 13 and 17 is pretty darn good too. I returned in 2006. The conditions were spotty (the departure of Don Mahaffey's brother Ron as superintendent started the downward spiral IMO) but the golf course still stood out. Sounds like larger forces than the economy may be at play, and this may have been the case for many years. It will be really disappointing if it doesn't reopen.

PS The drive from Phoenix to Globe is one of the prettiest there is too. 
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold closing
« Reply #51 on: February 16, 2009, 01:42:21 PM »
Very cool routing and property.

Not everyone wanted the course there however....



And they did try to fix stuff....
Not sure if you really needed four basins within 6 feet of a green.



Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Jim Johnson

Re: Apache Stronghold closing
« Reply #52 on: February 16, 2009, 06:06:28 PM »


If there was ever a candidate for a GCA group owned course, my vote is with High Pointe.

JC,
Funny I was just thinking about those old GCA group owned threads this morning.  IMO, none of those "hey lets all build a golf course" ideas had a chance of working but they might now that the whole world has turned upside down.  There are many many MANY courses available for very little money.  The trick right now is sifting through all of them and finding an operational business plan that will breakeven.

So nine months ago I would have said a GCA group thing had no chance... but now?  Maybe.

High Pointe's website shows a playing season from May 15th to August 30th.  About 100 days to pay for 365 days of overhead.  That scares me a bit.


Being from Canada, I admittedly don't know much about "the system" in the U.S.
Is it possible for a group to go in and either lease to operate, or purchase a golf course, on tribal land?


JJ


Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold closing
« Reply #53 on: February 16, 2009, 06:10:47 PM »


It looks like that green was Nuzzoed!

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Richard Hetzel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold closing
« Reply #54 on: February 16, 2009, 08:17:14 PM »

I'm on a roll; there are rumors floating around Traverse City that High Pointe won't open this year, either.

If there was ever a candidate for a GCA group owned course, my vote is with High Pointe.

JC,
Funny I was just thinking about those old GCA group owned threads this morning.  IMO, none of those "hey lets all build a golf course" ideas had a chance of working but they might now that the whole world has turned upside down.  There are many many MANY courses available for very little money.  The trick right now is sifting through all of them and finding an operational business plan that will breakeven.

So nine months ago I would have said a GCA group thing had no chance... but now?  Maybe.

High Pointe's website shows a playing season from May 15th to August 30th.  About 100 days to pay for 365 days of overhead.  That scares me a bit.

We'd have to re-do HP's 18th though... ;)

This one? I actually LIKED IT. Birdies do help though!

Best Played So Far This Season:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI)

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold closing
« Reply #55 on: February 16, 2009, 09:07:02 PM »
I was sorry to hear about this. Coincidentally, I had a meeting set up with new management about three weeks ago. That meeting is tomorrow and it centers around cost savings and management options. Apparently the tribal leadership had the idea to close the course several months ago, but did not act until recently. Our firm was asked to consult on agronomic and any cost-savings measures that might be warranted. I wish I could shed more light...after tomorrow I may be able to do so.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold closing
« Reply #56 on: February 17, 2009, 08:34:56 AM »
You might want to suggest they just maintain the green complexes and turn off the water everywhere else.

Equip the cart with ultra light weight astro turf removeable mats that can be taken out and hit from.

Seems that would be keeping with their past performance.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Apache Stronghold closing
« Reply #57 on: February 17, 2009, 10:18:24 AM »
Interesting ...

Coincidentally, we have been trying to advise them behind the scenes.  I did not realize they were also talking to other architects about our work.

Sounds like the two different factions within the tribe are each pursuing separate agendas.

Mike Sweeney

Re: Apache Stronghold closing
« Reply #58 on: February 17, 2009, 10:58:13 AM »
Interesting ...

Coincidentally, we have been trying to advise them behind the scenes.  I did not realize they were also talking to other architects about our work.

Sounds like the two different factions within the tribe are each pursuing separate agendas.

Tom,

With Kavanaugh gone, someone with experience in getting rejection needs to help you out here. Believe it or not, not everything in life is some complicated conspiracy theory. There is a chance, just a chance that "They're Just Not That Into You" !

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold closing
« Reply #59 on: February 17, 2009, 07:47:43 PM »
Firstly, to clarify my involvement — Our office was asked to look at the agronomics and to suggest some remedies. The request came through a contact who has been working with the tribal community on other (non golf) matters. My tendency was to pass the request onto a group I work with here in the West, and to avoid the two hour drive. But, having not seen the course in a few years, I figured it would be enlightening and interesting. It was.

It was late last week that we heard it closed, yet a few weeks ago that the appointment had been made. So, it was a surprise when I got the news about the shut-down.

My take is that the tribal leaders simply want to start fresh — to get the right employees and budgets in place so they do not endure the bad conditions and reputation that had plagued the course over the past several years. This is coming from new management — and I found it quite refreshing.

Tom D. — Your reputation is intact. There was a general like of all you did there. The complaints seemed to be aimed at lack of civil engineering ("none" as I heard it explained) and the trouble with turf varieties that were apparently specified by third party consultants. Everyone loves the design, routing and strategy. I made it clear that I was there only to make introductions.

My sole suggestion was that they sell all of the out-of-place palm trees that form the backdrop to the 18th hole — this seemed to get some traction and I am trying to find a buyer for them!  :)

To my knowledge their only focus is to figure out how to move forward — and stop losing money on the golf operation. I could go into the reasons it has lost money, but I think one could form their own guesses based on the discussions here. I am very encouraged. It would be great to see the course re-opened to great fanfare and — finally — as good of condition as the design deserves.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Tom Yost

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold closing
« Reply #60 on: February 18, 2009, 12:01:32 PM »

Forrest - this is encouraging news!






Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold closing
« Reply #61 on: February 18, 2009, 01:07:22 PM »
The way things are going in the gambling industry, they might be forced to consider how to stop losing money on the casino.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold closing
« Reply #62 on: April 22, 2009, 11:51:34 AM »
On a happier note than the news regarding Wigwam/Biltmore, I read that Apache Stronghold has reopened.
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold closing
« Reply #63 on: April 22, 2009, 12:10:56 PM »
Here's the link detailing the re-opening:

http://www.indiancountrytoday.com/living/sports/43360387.html
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold closing
« Reply #64 on: December 21, 2021, 02:28:16 PM »
Apparently the course has closed again. I fear this time for good.


https://apache-gold-casino.com/golf/

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold closing
« Reply #65 on: December 22, 2021, 01:02:59 AM »



It was the first Doak course I ever played.  I played it shortly after it opened and probably 5 times after that.  Each time the conditioning got worse and worse. 


May it RIP. 


MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold closing
« Reply #66 on: December 22, 2021, 08:59:58 AM »
Really unfortunate and sad.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Tom Yost

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold closing
« Reply #67 on: December 22, 2021, 10:21:34 AM »
Too bad really.

I didn't re-read the older posts, but I think it was discussed that the location may have contributed. Just a bit too far of a drive from metro PHX for a daytrip, and not any sort of desirable destination for an overnight or multi-day trip (the casino/hotel is just dismal).  As well, the in-between climate - not significantly cooler in the summer but colder in the winter. 

Couple that with a total lack of commitment from tribal leadership that allowed a slow deterioration of conditions to the point that any attraction to visit disappeared years ago.  Self-fulfilling proposition.

I regret I didn't take the opportunity to visit a last time.  It was a wonderful course.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2021, 10:23:55 AM by Tom Yost »

JohnVDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold closing
« Reply #68 on: December 22, 2021, 10:49:25 AM »
Very sorry to read this, it was my first Doak course and I remember being very impressed.


My first trip to Apache Stronghold was for Tom’s Renaissance Cup.  It ended up being a very important trip for me.


The Emperor arranged for Redanman and I to be partners.  We had never met so as we were meeting in Phoenix airport, I sent him a description of me as a 6’5” heavier set man in my mid-40s. All I got back was “Ditto”.  We found each other easily and hit the road. During a round at Talking Stick and a good dinner in Scottsdale, we found that out birthdays were one year and 3 days apart, our wives were two years and 1 day apart, we both drove BMWs (he’s gone over to the dark since (Mercedes)). Finally, my name is John and my father was Bill while his name is Bill and his father John.


We decided we were long-lost brothers and still refer to each other than way to this day.


I made it back there in 2001 and the decline had already started.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold closing
« Reply #69 on: December 22, 2021, 01:17:05 PM »
The legend it once was is better than the monument it had become.

Dan Grossman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold closing
« Reply #70 on: December 23, 2021, 12:30:27 AM »
Very sorry to read this, it was my first Doak course and I remember being very impressed.


My first trip to Apache Stronghold was for Tom’s Renaissance Cup.  It ended up being a very important trip for me.


The Emperor arranged for Redanman and I to be partners.  We had never met so as we were meeting in Phoenix airport, I sent him a description of me as a 6’5” heavier set man in my mid-40s. All I got back was “Ditto”.  We found each other easily and hit the road. During a round at Talking Stick and a good dinner in Scottsdale, we found that out birthdays were one year and 3 days apart, our wives were two years and 1 day apart, we both drove BMWs (he’s gone over to the dark since (Mercedes)). Finally, my name is John and my father was Bill while his name is Bill and his father John.


We decided we were long-lost brothers and still refer to each other than way to this day.


I made it back there in 2001 and the decline had already started.


Fun Post John.  I remember a few early Kings Putters with the crew and having BillV (aka Redanman) engaged at least in posting.  Not sure if he made it to the Pasatiempo, Barona or Rustic soirees.  I had the chance to play High Pointe several times before it closed, but not Apache.  I'm bummed that this has happened, it feels a bit like we are losing important history...

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Apache Stronghold closing
« Reply #71 on: December 23, 2021, 09:09:08 AM »
The legend it once was is better than the monument it had become.


Totally agree.  The last 15 years have been nothing but, "I went to see it, terrible condition, such a shame they don't fix it up."


If they wanted to fix it up, they would have by now.

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold closing
« Reply #72 on: December 26, 2021, 01:33:07 AM »
I don’t build golf courses - I’m a cabinet maker.


I’ll never forget the day I drove past a house where some years earlier I’d spent several weeks installing the hand made kitchen I’d designed and built in my workshop.


The house had new owners and my kitchen was being ripped out and flung in a skip (dumpster).


I kinda know how Tom must feel…
« Last Edit: December 26, 2021, 01:51:05 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

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