What is wrong with Sandpiper (California)?

[Jordan Standefer]

It always bothered me that 14 had the cart path down the right side. Is there an environmental or safety reason for it? And if that's the case, why don't 6 and 13 have that issue? Seems odd to not take full advantage of the cliff.

[Tim_Weiman]

Sandpiper will be in great hands with Tom, hopefully with little interference from Ty Webb and his Golf overseer. From my viewpoint, I think those two are complete fruit kückens…


Regarding the original routing and William F. Bell, count me as one that can see the differences between him and his more creative father.


When joining his father, the differences in the architecture changed quickly.  Ojai & La Cumbre are examples.  While both courses went to seed during the Depression, Ojai becoming a Army Air Corps base and La Cumbre becoming a field, little effort was made in recovering the original routings. (Brilliant routings at that!). La Cumbre needed a housing plan to drive it, despite plenty of area in Hope Ranch which to build on; Ojai had many corridors changed or vacated or even temporary structures built upon it, for instance the famed par 3 lost hole’s green became a horse corral.  The lost hole par 4 went completely to seed; a new par 3 hole was pinched in between the old 5th & 6th.  Every decision after the war that’s ever been made there has been a detriment to the once brilliant design.


A lot of these changes were WF Bell after his Dad became less active for health reasons when he joined the firm.


Back to Sandpiper…


I’ve played many rounds there like many here, I’ve studied the course numerous times.  It had one good hole for every two or three mediocre holes and the 18th is just a complete mystery why it was even built but I’ll more then bet it was someone from the owner/developer side of things wanting/demanding a par 3 water hole..

Tommy,


I don’t want to hijack the thread, but while we are kind of in your neck of the woods - Southern California - I wonder how you think Sandpiper compares to the Los Verdes golf course in Palos Verdes.


Part of me wants to say Los Verdes is a better property and better golf course, but I recall the maintenance and pace of play as being so bad I hesitate to recommend anyone check it out.


Any thoughts on Los Verdes?

[Tommy Naccarato]

Tim, I’d gladly play Los Verdes every day over Sandpiper if the rounds didn’t take so long!  That course would be incredible view and deal if they did some restorative work to it! I would go so far to say, it could be the best Billy Bell Jr./W.F. Bell Course ever built! Torrey Pines-North being a close second!


BTW, anyone claiming that both Torrey courses having William Park Bell involvement is simply wrong.

[Tim_Weiman]

Tim, I’d gladly play Los Verdes every day over Sandpiper if the rounds didn’t take so long!  That course would be incredible view and deal if they did some restorative work to it! I would go so far to say, it could be the best Billy Bell Jr./W.F. Bell Course ever built! Torrey Pines-North being a close second!


BTW, anyone claiming that both Torrey courses having William Park Bell involvement is simply wrong.

Tommy,


Thanks for your thoughts on Los Verdes. Too bad the pace of play is an unsolvable problem at that facility.


But let me add some color. Years ago when I was transferred to LA within an hour of being there I got a call from a well known West Coast oil trader and USC grad who asked me what I was doing Saturday night.


Seemed like a silly question. I just made it to my desk!


Then, he closed the deal: he invited me to a party at the Playboy Mansion.


So, of course I went and even got a date from the party. No she wasn’t a Playmate but she was very attractive and a fellow oil industry person - an engineer at the Mobil Torrance refinery.


More to the point, she recommended that I check out Los Verdes and she was right save the pace of play issue.

[Mark Kiely]

Tim, I’d gladly play Los Verdes every day over Sandpiper if the rounds didn’t take so long!  That course would be incredible view and deal if they did some restorative work to it! I would go so far to say, it could be the best Billy Bell Jr./W.F. Bell Course ever built! Torrey Pines-North being a close second!


BTW, anyone claiming that both Torrey courses having William Park Bell involvement is simply wrong.

Tommy,


Thanks for your thoughts on Los Verdes. Too bad the pace of play is an unsolvable problem at that facility.

You sure it's unsolvable? Seems like they eliminated fivesomes when the pandemic started and pretty much every review on Greenskeeper.org for the last 18 months is reporting POP of 3:45-4:30. I haven't played it recently myself, but I know and trust many of the people who posted those experiences.

[Tim_Weiman]

Mark,


That is good to hear. The fivesomes were ridiculous. I’d love to play Los Verdes in four hours. It just wasn’t possible when I lived out there (late 80s/early 90s).

[Jeff Schley]

Played Los Verdes many Saturday mornings as a "wild card" twosome to mix with another 3 guys. A coach knew a guy who ran American Golf for So Cal back then. It was free, but man I would have paid to play in 4 hours. There are so many better ways to get more golfers around. Fivesomes are not an answer, always thought 2 shotguns on Sat/Sun were a possibility as you have one at 7 let's say and 12. Don't load the course up with 3 groups on each hole obviously, it is done well at charity events and if someone could get a cherry 7 am Saturday morning tee time that would be great.

Sandpiper's proximity to the ocean creates the expectation of it being a better course and you leave there wishing it was better. Put it inland and probably just accept it. However it isn't a dog track by any means, many here have high standards and want to optimize the course. But I'd play there happily as a nice public course.

[Kalen Braley]

Jeff,

I don't think anyone is claiming Sand Pines is a dog track....its just a very poor value proposition.

Green fees are near $200 for weekend play, and $150+ for a weekday go-around.  I know for many playing next to the ocean is alluring to fork over the extra dosh, but from where I sit its a bit like paying for a fine steak and getting ground beef.  And its not the only location that cashes in on this concept, Torrey Pines, Half Moon Bay, Spanish Bay, do same.

[David Ober]

10-11-12 will stay in place.  We are not allowed to change the 11th at all, because it's so close to the creek at the boundary of the course; so that kinda locks in the 10th, and the tee shot on the 12th.  I might do something different with the 12th green if we are allowed to.

12 is problematic currently because of the nature of the fairway: It's a valley where most balls end up in the same, destroyed turf over and over and over. No bueno.

[David Ober]

Also agree with some here about the greens: Mostly uninspired back-to-front jobbers. Meh. I do love putting the greens, though, as they are usually exceptionally pure -- especially for a public course.

[Ronald Montesano]

Anonymous Jackers, et al...start your own thread on The Greens if you like. One of our problems on GCA is that people thread-jack without even a thought. This has been a neat thread, and I'd like it to remain that way. Not a personal assault; simply a point of order as we try to make GCA better in 2022.


Why do I say this? I know a lot of golf course industry people who aren't ON GCA, but do a fair bit of stalking. They follow coherent threads with great interest, so the point of this one is to give Sandpiper a chance at its rehabilitation, in our own little way.


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David...I did not know that bit about the 12th fairway valley, as I only had the one go-round in 2015. That would seem to be something that could be easily rectified in a restoration/rehabilitation.


Kalen...I imagine that Sandpiper was a really good value proposition, prior to 1997. I imagine that, in the proper hands, it can return to a really good value proposition and a darling of this discussion group.

[Tom_Doak]

David...I did not know that bit about the 12th fairway valley, as I only had the one go-round in 2015. That would seem to be something that could be easily rectified in a restoration/rehabilitation.

Well, maybe, if they will let us.  But once you come in 100 feet from the cliff edge and 100 feet from the frog pond on 18, there isn't a lot of room left to make changes, because the tie-in points "are where they are".  It's kind of ridiculous the way the regulations are written -- the frogs wouldn't care if what's now the tee on #18 was a few feet lower -- but, rules are rules and you can't be granted an exception because of the slippery slope.