The best par 4s no one talks about

[JohnVDB]

12th hole 505 yds for the pros Torrey Pines South. 3rd hardest hole on PGA tour in 2021. Great challenge for all, uphill usually into a wind with a well placed trap on the right, Kikuyu rough and a difficult green with hang gliders floating by behind the green.

I’m not sure it’s great or one of the best, but it is definitely one of the hardest


That hole has always been a beast.  When I played it a lot in the early 70s it was really hard.  In those days the tour played three holes off the North course to avoid 11, 12 and 13 on the South.
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[Anthony Gray]

 
Going with the second at Cruden Bay. Shorter par 4 with a green on top of a volcano. Seems like it’s Pete Dye but it is not. If you hit the green with a short iron it’s a birdie put, but if you miss you are staring at a difficult up and down. This hole can swing either way and it’s early in the round. And of course the eye candy of the Scottish links and town. It’s a gem.

[MCirba]

13 at TOC. 


8th at Prairie Club Dunes.



Today's 12th at Cobb's Creek.  Soon to be the 7th again (finger crossed, breath held).

[Anthony Gray]

I have to chuckle when the thread asks for holes no one talks about and the courses mentioned are:
North Berwick
TOC
Tobacco Road
Spanish Bay
Portmarnock
Torrey Pines
Pine Valley
Sand Hills
Sunningdale
Barnbougle
Diamante
Palmetto
Golspie
Shinnecock
Shoreacres
Elie
Maidstone
Brora

Maybe as Steve says the thread should be overlooked holes on great courses.
I do appreciate the Belvedere reference.

 Holes not courses.

[Joe Zucker]

One of my favorite par 4s I’ve played recently that no one talks about is #6 at Roy Kizer Golf Course in Austin, TX.  The hole isn’t world class because the green is pretty average, but it does provide interesting strategy in a really simple way. 

It’s a 380 yard dead straight hole with water down the left.  In the picture below, you can see the left side of the fairway near the water is flat and provides an angle right up the throat of the green.  The right side of the fairway has all kinds of mounding and moguls that can put you 10 or so feet below the left side of the fairway. This creates semi blind shots into the green and a lot of really awkward lies.  The fairway has to be 50 yards wide and there are no bunkers to find off the tee, but if you aim away from the water, the approach is significantly harder.  In my opinion, it’s a great example of a simple hole that can provide challenging shots. 

As a “good” player, I always aim right center of the fairway to keep the ball out of the hazard and if I hit the shot I want, I’m always kicking myself for not being more aggressive because of the difficult approach I’ve left myself.  I wish I had some pictures on the ground to show what the approach looks like at eye level. It certainly won't qualify as "best' by any definition, but it is different.

[Rob Marshall]

12th hole 505 yds for the pros Torrey Pines South. 3rd hardest hole on PGA tour in 2021. Great challenge for all, uphill usually into a wind with a well placed trap on the right, Kikuyu rough and a difficult green with hang gliders floating by behind the green.

Is it really uphil?, I’ve played the course 4 or 5 times and don’t remeber it being uphill.

[Tim Leahy]

12th hole 505 yds for the pros Torrey Pines South. 3rd hardest hole on PGA tour in 2021. Great challenge for all, uphill usually into a wind with a well placed trap on the right, Kikuyu rough and a difficult green with hang gliders floating by behind the green.

Is it really uphil?, I’ve played the course 4 or 5 times and don’t remeber it being uphill.

Sorry whenever I try to cut & paste here it comes out miniature, but if you expand it you will see the link with Phil describing the hole as slightly uphill.

https://youtu.be/KxJ-RpF8yU0
Phil describes #12 as slightly uphill and if you watch the flyover for #11 you can see the 12th going uphill.

[Sean_A]

Cleeve Hill is garnering more attention these past few years and rightfully so. Usually the holes people rave over are 15 and 16, the back to back par 3s. There are several other highlights of the course, but the hole which impresses me most is the 5th. It's about a perfect natural hole as it comes. A seemingly wide open drive, but gorse lurks left beyond the 150 marker. The further right the drive the more blind the approach toward a quarry left of the green with a bunker right of the green. The fairway and green lay wonderfully over the land,but at cross purposes. The fairway flows right, but there are few little shelves that will hold a drive. The green too is stepped in this natural way, but flowing back to front and narrow to wider. The 5th is a sublime hole, one of Cleeve Cloud's more quiet types. It's a hole I think shapers could learn from.

Ciao

[Brett Meyer]

I agree with Sean on Cleeve Hill's 5th, which is excellent for all the reasons that he mentions. I'm partial to the 7th, which is one of the best long par 4s that I've played. It's a blind drive but you can get a sneak peak at the hole because you walk back to the tee from a direction where you can see more of the hole. If you do that, you can see that the hole doglegs slightly right. But you have to be very careful about cutting down the right side because there's also a quarry ~240-270 off the tee on the right. You can bail out to the left, but then the uphill approach becomes much longer. The green sits beautifully at the base of a hill and you have to carry a hiking path to run the ball onto the green.

Two great par 4s that no one talks about are the 14th and the 18th at Keilir in Iceland. The former has one of the most dramatic drives that I've ever seen: a minimum 230 yard diagonal carry over a cove. The 18th has one of the best approaches that I've seen over a service road and stone wall about 50 yards short of the green. The green is deep and narrow and you can use the slope short and left of the green to run the ball on.

The approach to Cleeve Hill's 7th:



The drive on Keilir's 14th:



The approach on Keilir's 18th:

[Dave Duevel]

Two good ones not on "Top 100" courses:


#8 at Bluejack National


#11 at Sutton Bay

[Garland Bayley]

I think my favorite par 4 that flies under the radar (and might even have some haters) is the 12th at Enniscrone. I stood on that tee and had no idea what the hell was going on. Got out to my ball and laughed at just how spectacular the greensite was.

Good one Dan! I had someone to tell me what was going on and still didn't know what was going on.

[Garland Bayley]

8 at Tarbat.
Most par 4s at Perranporth. 7, 8, 12. 13, 14, 18, etc.
4 at Tenby
14, 16 at Portsalon
10 at Craighead

[Anthony Gray]

 Pacific Dunes Has many picturesque holes that get photographed but my favorite par 4 is number 16. Its sneaky. The play is to the high left and short. But it’s too tempting to just to bomb it which puts you in The Valley of Como if you stray right. Kinda suckers you in. The green is like a ramp which is cool. Really tuff lies in the green side bunker. It looks easy from the tee but packs some poison. I found myself in the valley of como way below the hole about 60 yards out. Give me the putter I told Pac-Man and proceeded to lip the cup from 60 yards. I shook a few hands and walked in. My day was done after that putt. Necesito ir. It’s time to go find Gib.

[Garland Bayley]

 Pacific Dunes Has many picturesque holes that get photographed but my favorite par 4 is number 16. Its sneaky. The play is to the high left and short. But it’s too tempting to just to bomb it which puts you in The Valley of Como if you stray right. Kinda suckers you in. The green is like a ramp which is cool. Really tuff lies in the green side bunker. It looks easy from the tee but packs some poison. I found myself in the valley of como way below the hole about 60 yards out. Give me the putter I told Pac-Man and proceeded to lip the cup from 60 yards. I shook a few hands and walked in. My day was done after that putt. Necesito ir. It’s time to go find Gib.

Translation. Anthony was closed out in his match when he didn't win the 16th hole.

[Sean_A]

I agree with Sean on Cleeve Hill's 5th, which is excellent for all the reasons that he mentions. I'm partial to the 7th, which is one of the best long par 4s that I've played. It's a blind drive but you can get a sneak peak at the hole because you walk back to the tee from a direction where you can see more of the hole. If you do that, you can see that the hole doglegs slightly right. But you have to be very careful about cutting down the right side because there's also a quarry ~240-270 off the tee on the right. You can bail out to the left, but then the uphill approach becomes much longer. The green sits beautifully at the base of a hill and you have to carry a hiking path to run the ball onto the green.

The approach to Cleeve Hill's 7th:

Brett

I agree about the 7th. That green is a great reason why double digit green speeds are necessarily desirable. I didn't choose the hole because of the walk to other side of the quarry to the tee. I don't understand walking to a blind tee shot when a good tee is next to the green. Plus, unless you are very long, it's better to be left, away from the quarry for a much better angle into the green.

Ciao

[Peter Pallotta]

My goodness, what a magnificent golf hole.


For something a bit different, I'd take just about any little known Par 4 from Camberley Heath, and be a happy fellow.

[Tim_Weiman]

Tobacco Road hole 18.

Wasn’t impressed with 18 at Tobacco Road. Not fun at all playing it into the sun.

[Tim_Weiman]

I have to chuckle when the thread asks for holes no one talks about and the courses mentioned are:
North Berwick
TOC
Tobacco Road
Spanish Bay
Portmarnock
Torrey Pines
Pine Valley
Sand Hills
Sunningdale
Barnbougle
Diamante
Palmetto
Golspie
Shinnecock
Shoreacres
Elie
Maidstone
Brora

Maybe as Steve says the thread should be overlooked holes on great courses.
I do appreciate the Belvedere reference.

Joe,


Your point is well taken. So let me offer an example from a muni I doubt anyone has discussed here:


#11, Rec Park, Long Beach, CA


This par 4 plays about 370-380 yards with the tee shot uphill and the approach shot downhill. The tee shot is semi blind, though a first time player wouldn’t realize it. The fairway up the hill appears to be in plain site, but the ideal line and landing area on this dogleg right is not in view.


The tendency for both first time and experienced players is to aim for what appears to be the middle of the fairway. The first time player doesn’t know better while the golfer familiar with the hole is wary of the risk-reward due to the fall off, rough and trees to the right of the right (hidden) side of the fairway.


If memory serves, the green with no bunkers protecting it, appears pretty straight forward.


In reality, it is not. The challenge is a deceptively left to right slope that makes pins on the right side of the green perilous for two reasons: the downhill nature of the putt from the left side of the green and the fall off from the right side of the green that comes into play with a putt struck too hard.


Despite the often frustrating muni pace of play, I loved playing Rec Park during my years living in Long Beach. #11 was my favorite hole. I could play it 18 times and enjoy it each time. I don’t know many holes like that even on famous courses.

[Brett Meyer]

I agree with Sean on Cleeve Hill's 5th, which is excellent for all the reasons that he mentions. I'm partial to the 7th, which is one of the best long par 4s that I've played. It's a blind drive but you can get a sneak peak at the hole because you walk back to the tee from a direction where you can see more of the hole. If you do that, you can see that the hole doglegs slightly right. But you have to be very careful about cutting down the right side because there's also a quarry ~240-270 off the tee on the right. You can bail out to the left, but then the uphill approach becomes much longer. The green sits beautifully at the base of a hill and you have to carry a hiking path to run the ball onto the green.

The approach to Cleeve Hill's 7th:

Brett

I agree about the 7th. That green is a great reason why double digit green speeds are necessarily desirable. I didn't choose the hole because of the walk to other side of the quarry to the tee. I don't understand walking to a blind tee shot when a good tee is next to the green. Plus, unless you are very long, it's better to be left, away from the quarry for a much better angle into the green.

Ciao

Sean,

All else equal, I agree that a long walk from a green to the next tee isn't desirable. But this is definitely one of those cases where all else isn't equal. It's one of the best blind driving holes that I've played. I think the combination of being able to see part of the hole before you play it and the blind drive is what makes this hole so great and so original. If you're paying attention, you can see that there's trouble up the right but endless room to the left. But the hole is also long, turns to the right, and has an uphill approach. So it's going to be difficult to have a decent shot at the green unless you're up the right...near the quarry.

And when you're standing on the tee you may know that the quarry is there, but it's still hard to tell exactly where it is. This uncertainty plus the total lack of trouble on the left makes it easy to bail well left. These factors also make it the rare blind shot that's as interesting on repeat plays as the first. So it's one of the greatest driving holes that I've played. And the approach is stunning. All of that adds up to this being, I think, the best hole on the course and one of the best par 4s that I played in England.

[Kyle Harris]

The 2nd hole at Brooksville Country Club.

Steadily uphill. Bunker-less. Green that falls away. 390 playing +30 yards up. All golf. Good animal spirit.

[Jim Sherma]

Ennicrone's 12th - Best of the big-dune holes at Enniscrone IMO. I believe that it is a Hackett hole as well. I tend to think that the big-dune holes, at Enniscrone and other courses as well, get very overrated based on wow factor alone. The golf factor becomes very one dimensional on many of them due to the lost ball gunch on either side of the saddles that they tend to be routed through. This is one that has both big wow factor and excellent golf factor along with decisions that have to be made. Would love to play the hole a bunch of times in different conditions to see what strategies I lock into.

I think my favorite par 4 that flies under the radar (and might even have some haters) is the 12th at Enniscrone. I stood on that tee and had no idea what the hell was going on. Got out to my ball and laughed at just how spectacular the greensite was.

Good one Dan! I had someone to tell me what was going on and still didn't know what was going on.

[Britt Rife]

Going with the second at Cruden Bay. Shorter par 4 with a green on top of a volcano. Seems like it’s Pete Dye but it is not. If you hit the green with a short iron it’s a birdie put, but if you miss you are staring at a difficult up and down. This hole can swing either way and it’s early in the round. And of course the eye candy of the Scottish links and town. It’s a gem.

This absolutely gets my vote.  It was the hole that immediately sprang to mind when I read the thread title.


Another one I'd mention is what I believe to be the second hole at Leven.  This par four has a split fairway.  The right side runs low, near the trailer park and the whole is clearly visible from the tee.  A bit narrow down there, but still inviting.  There is an upper fairway over the ridge on the left, partially obscured by the ridge and containing centerline fairway bunkers.  The left fairway affords an open shot to the green, while the right offers an open drive with a blind over-the-ridge shot to the green.  Nice and strategic, and while this formula is seen elsewhere, surely this is a good, early example.  And fun to play.

[David Amarnek]

Count me as one who also considers #12 at Sunningdale Old a favorite.
For this discussion, I would suggest putting #3 and #8 at Gulph Mills into the mix (see Joe Bausch’s photo tour from several years’ back).  A very difficult long par 4 with strategy abound and a challenging short par 4 with an awesome green site.

[Rory Connaughton]

Ally - Agree re: 10 at Portmarnock and suggest 14 is also fantastic


Dan and Jim- Agree re: 12 at Enniscrone - I think 5 is also a fantastic par 4 with the dyke and small dune blocking the view of the green on the right and the ridge forcing you in that direction. It is one of those driving holes where getting a view of the green feels like a victory.


Also offer 13. Play the chute with 5 iron and a nice view of the dell for your second or go up and over everything and hope to find your ball in the dell

[Mike Hendren]

Welcome back Anthony.  If a contrarian was sitting at his desk on a boring Thursday afternoon, just for sport he might challenge your choice of the 8th at Pebble Beach as being among the best.  He would likely avoid signing off with his full name to protect himself from the disdain of the cognoscenti, the junior-varsity cognoscenti and the cognoscenti-wannabees.  His sophomoric rebuttal could be along these lines:


Blind tee shot
Blind lay-up tee shot.
Death-or-glory requirement of the approach with the ostensible lay-up fairway no more reachable than the green.
The smallest green on the course, disproportionately so to the approach called for.
No short game interest around the green with green side bunkers set back from the putting surface.
An absurdly small back right green section that wouldn't hold a dropped cat.


BTW, the 3rd a National Golf Links of America called and said "hold my beer."


Bogey