Can a Great Hole - Part Deux

[Peter Pallotta]

Can a great golf hole be merely a good one for half the year, and maybe even less than that a quarter of the time?

If you answer, 'no, a great golf hole is always great' might you be focusing too much on the architecture and not enough on the actual playing?

[Andrew Harvie]

Almost everything in the northern part of the States and all of Canada is covered in snow for at least 5 months of the year, so I think yes.


I assume this is about Bandon Dunes and the summer/winter winds. I don't have an answer, but I've always assumed the switch in winds is why Bandon's rankings vary so much.

[Sven Nilsen]

Peter:


Can you give us a couple of examples?


Sven

[Peter Pallotta]

I didn't have any examples in mind, Sven, and certainly no famous ones. (Drew's assumption is incorrect, as I've never been to Bandon).

I wanted to ask more about the nature & qualities of greatness -- a general question, with well-travelled folks providing examples of great golf holes that support a 'yes' or a 'no' 'for' answer.

I've played many a decent golf hole that 'changes' -- in the playing at least --  over the course of the season, e.g. from wet and slow early to drier and faster later on, with the wind helping for much of the season to the wind hurting for the last two months.

The 'architecture' remains the same, but in the playing that decent golf hole seems to go from multi-faceted and 'strategic' to one dimensional and 'penal', and from a lot of fun to a kind of dull slog.

I'm asking: Is that because the hole is only a decent one and not a great one? Or can 'great golf holes' too play great only some of the time?

A general theory would be nice, but I'd be happy with the views of many individual posters, i.e. "if a golf hole you're familiar with and fond of plays much differently -- for whatever reason(s) -- from one part of the year to another, do you (still) consider it a great one?" 

[Tom_Doak]

All of the Bandon courses have the issue that the north wind and the south wind are very strong and they blow from each direction s good number of days.  Some of the holes stand up better than others to what’s effectively a 75 or even 100 yard difference in effective length from one season to the next.  The ones that are interesting both ways are the truly great holes.


Another element of this:  when I had lunch with Herbert Warren Wind ages ago, he said he disliked all of the modern emphasis on hole locations being a key facet of design, because if you didn’t see those hole locations the day you played the course you might be shortchanged.  His feeling was that a great hole should not fall apart when the pin was right in the middle of the green.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Peter,


Not really answering your question in the way it was intended. But we do know that some great holes have been nullified by modern equipment. And therefore are not really great holes any more for long hitting, high spin players… but they are still great for shorter hitting, low spin players.


The same could be said for ground conditions. But I can’t think off the top of my head of any specific examples.

[Sean_A]

I have always taken the view that a hole changing how it plays depending on the season and weather is a positive thing. But yes, I can see a hole being great on some days and not others.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

I have always taken the view that a hole changing how it plays depending on the season and weather is a positive thing. But yes, I can see a hole being great on some days and not others.

Ciao

I agree with regards to wind and temperature. But when softer ground conditions remove run and strategy, I think this can very negatively affect how a hole plays.

[Sean_A]

I have always taken the view that a hole changing how it plays depending on the season and weather is a positive thing. But yes, I can see a hole being great on some days and not others.

Ciao

I agree with regards to wind and temperature. But when softer ground conditions remove run and strategy, I think this can very negatively affect how a hole plays.

Into one's life a little rain must fall. I don't mind softer conditions as a changeup so long as my troozers don't collect mud...that is a step too far.

Ciao

[Niall C]

All of the Bandon courses have the issue that the north wind and the south wind are very strong and they blow from each direction s good number of days.  Some of the holes stand up better than others to what’s effectively a 75 or even 100 yard difference in effective length from one season to the next.  The ones that are interesting both ways are the truly great holes.


Another element of this:  when I had lunch with Herbert Warren Wind ages ago, he said he disliked all of the modern emphasis on hole locations being a key facet of design, because if you didn’t see those hole locations the day you played the course you might be shortchanged.  His feeling was that a great hole should not fall apart when the pin was right in the middle of the green.

Tom


In that first paragraph I think you have just summed up the issue of what I call the paint by numbers approach to design that a lot of architects and indeed raters take, particularly in relation to links courses. Designing and even judging a hole or a course for only one set of conditions is a fools errand IMO. Trying to get round the issue with a multitude of tees is just a crutch for shite architecture, again IMO.


Niall

[Ally Mcintosh]

All of the Bandon courses have the issue that the north wind and the south wind are very strong and they blow from each direction s good number of days.  Some of the holes stand up better than others to what’s effectively a 75 or even 100 yard difference in effective length from one season to the next.  The ones that are interesting both ways are the truly great holes.


Another element of this:  when I had lunch with Herbert Warren Wind ages ago, he said he disliked all of the modern emphasis on hole locations being a key facet of design, because if you didn’t see those hole locations the day you played the course you might be shortchanged.  His feeling was that a great hole should not fall apart when the pin was right in the middle of the green.

Tom


In that first paragraph I think you have just summed up the issue of what I call the paint by numbers approach to design that a lot of architects and indeed raters take, particularly in relation to links courses. Designing and even judging a hole or a course for only one set of conditions is a fools errand IMO. Trying to get round the issue with a multitude of tees is just a crutch for shite architecture, again IMO.


Niall

Niall, regards links courses, you get to the crux of one of my major issues with much of the work being carried out presently. Fairway bunkers are being placed consistently at 250-300 by architects who have visited a course no more than a handful of times… I know - from experience - that the ones they are suggesting to remove at 210 and 330 are much more intriguingly placed for certain wind days…. Design by numbers.

[Thomas Dai]

And the skill between the ears that is course management in variable course conditions becomes less important. Rather sad.
Atb

[BCrosby]

[W]hen I had lunch with Herbert Warren Wind ages ago, he said he disliked all of the modern emphasis on hole locations being a key facet of design, because if you didn’t see those hole locations the day you played the course you might be shortchanged.  His feeling was that a great hole should not fall apart when the pin was right in the middle of the green.

A wonderful observation from HWW.


Bob

[JESII]

It's an interesting question. It has really made me think about the holes I consider great and do they hold the standard.


My instinct is that part of what defines greatness in a golf hole is that ability to hold it's head up in all seasons/conditions. I am not sure I hold that as an expectation across skill levels however.


A couple examples that I haven't played so cannot judge but am curious;


Is #12 at Augusta a great hole when the hole is cut middle left?


Is #13 at Augusta a great hole for the longest of hitters? BDC was talking about hitting it over the right trees and into the 14th fairway and coming straight in with a short iron.


I think 13 retains it's greatness but wonder if 12 is more situational greatness...

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

All of the Bandon courses have the issue that the north wind and the south wind are very strong and they blow from each direction s good number of days.  Some of the holes stand up better than others to what’s effectively a 75 or even 100 yard difference in effective length from one season to the next.  The ones that are interesting both ways are the truly great holes.


Another element of this:  when I had lunch with Herbert Warren Wind ages ago, he said he disliked all of the modern emphasis on hole locations being a key facet of design, because if you didn’t see those hole locations the day you played the course you might be shortchanged.  His feeling was that a great hole should not fall apart when the pin was right in the middle of the green.

I like the way Mr Warren Wind thinks...or I guess thought

[Paul Jones]

In the south when bermuda greens go dormant, they play great.  However, the dormant fairways are usually soft/wet - especially chipping around the greens.  Holes play completely different in the summer then "winter".

[Peter Pallotta]

I don't know what defines/characterizes greatness. But if I look at it through the lens of, say, 'challenge', I can think of three good golf holes that for some of the year are easily the #1 stroke hole the card claims them to be, but for the rest of the year clearly aren't. (And then I could and routinely did win those holes with a par against better players.) There is something that throws me off about such a wide range of challenge and skill/shotmaking demands.

[BCrosby]

A couple examples that I haven't played so cannot judge but am curious;


Is #12 at Augusta a great hole when the hole is cut middle left?


Is #13 at Augusta a great hole for the longest of hitters? BDC was talking about hitting it over the right trees and into the 14th fairway and coming straight in with a short iron.


I think 13 retains it's greatness but wonder if 12 is more situational greatness...

Sully - The HWW idea that a great hole is one that is great even if the pin is in the middle of the green is an idea I had not heard before. A simple, elegant, and I assume non-exclusive, test. Genius.


The Road Hole passes the HWW test. The severely contoured Eden Hole green as well.


The 12th at ANGC does too. The green is so shallow and recoveries are so hard, there are no 'safe' pins. 


The 13th at ANGC is, I think, a different story. When people drive it far enough to leave a lofted approach shot, a pin in the middle of the back tier is very gettable for scratch or plus players. It's a different deal if you are hitting a long iron or wood for your second.


Bob

[Kalen Braley]

The comments so far seem to anecdotally support one of Pat Mucci's primary assertions from his hey-day.  That one can't really faithfully evaluate a course until they've played it dozens of times in varying conditions...

[Peter Pallotta]

The comments so far seem to anecdotally support one of Pat Mucci's primary assertions from his hey-day.  That one can't really faithfully evaluate a course until they've played it dozens of times in varying conditions...

Good catch/point there, Kalen -- I hadn't thought of it, but it definitely does tell us what Pat thought about the requirements of being able to define 'greatness'.

[Ally Mcintosh]

The comments so far seem to anecdotally support one of Pat Mucci's primary assertions from his hey-day.  That one can't really faithfully evaluate a course until they've played it dozens of times in varying conditions...

The most important assertion ever made on this website.

[Peter Pallotta]

The comments so far seem to anecdotally support one of Pat Mucci's primary assertions from his hey-day.  That one can't really faithfully evaluate a course until they've played it dozens of times in varying conditions...

The most important assertion ever made on this website.

Very interesting, Ally. Both that you think so, and the reasons why you might think so, i.e. what that tells you/us -- at its most basic / fundamental level -- about the nature of golf course architecture and the evaluative process. if you ever get a chance, it would be great to read your thoughts on that.

[Tom_Doak]

I hope Pat Mucci is doing well wherever he is today.


But I don’t think his assertion was as important as Ally does.  I understand his view, but it effectively cripples discussion of golf courses because it renders almost everyone’s judgment moot, until you are left with only the homies defending their own place.


And even if you’ve played Pacific Dines 50 times, you probably haven’t played it in all potential conditions - I myself have never played it with a strong wind blowing from the west, which is very rare but would make many of the holes too difficult for most.  So how many rounds does it take before you’re able to dismiss that possibility?

[V. Kmetz]

Herbert Warren Wind....said.... that a great hole should not fall apart when the pin was right in the middle of the green.

Yes; indeed it's a sign of "greatness" or interest/challenge in fact when the most vexxing spot IS the middle of the green. WFE/W are such courses, larded with frustratingly elusive/tough putting pin locales right in the middle...East more than West...

[Sean_A]

I hope Pat Mucci is doing well wherever he is today.

But I don’t think his assertion was as important as Ally does.  I understand his view, but it effectively cripples discussion of golf courses because it renders almost everyone’s judgment moot, until you are left with only the homies defending their own place.

And even if you’ve played Pacific Dines 50 times, you probably haven’t played it in all potential conditions - I myself have never played it with a strong wind blowing from the west, which is very rare but would make many of the holes too difficult for most.  So how many rounds does it take before you’re able to dismiss that possibility?

Can't a course be great if it plays great in one or two weather/season situations?

Ciao