[Daryl David]

One of my clubs is strictly no tipping. It is a very firm rule. The other only allows tips to outside staff and most members use a monthly plan to take care of them. The club bills you a monthly amount you determined that is distributed to all the outside service people based on their hours.

Isn't that sort of like trophies for everyone? I would rather give more to people I thought did a great job, and then just a standard 15% to those who just ... are.

There certainly are members that feel that way. They tend to take care of their favorites either around Christmas or end of season. The club encourages the monthly stipend system mainly due to the competitive labor market. The club can’t afford to have employees drift away because they might now earn as much as the member favorites. In our area, cooks and servers are getting signing bonuses if they are willing to jump to another club. Retaining staff is currently management’s biggest headache.

[Dan_Callahan]

In our area, cooks and servers are getting signing bonuses if they are willing to jump to another club. Retaining staff is currently management’s biggest headache.

Yikes. I hadn't even thought of that.

[Peter Pallotta]

Tim,  each to his own.  For the member, unless you want to be able to have a friendly wager on the course, you need not worry about carrying or exchanging cash at the club.  You also need not worry about the type of tip competition alluded to by Barney.  Many of the women members at our club expressed real concern on this issue.  It also makes it easier for guests who need not wonder whether they should take care of caddies, locker room attendants, car parkers etc.  There are other ways to incentivize employees.  Higher base wages certainly help.  Our club has a scholarship program for employees and their families among other benefits.  It seems to work as we have a large number of employees who have been with us for more than a decade, some who exceed 30 years service

Reading this thread and these posts, I have come to better appreciate the rationale for/benefits of a 'no tipping' policy. One definite downside, however, is that it takes away the pleasures of the grand gesture, of living large, of tipping like Namath in his hey-dey -- and of a story like this, that Ken Venturi tells, about one of his many dinners with Frank Sinatra. IIRC, it goes something like: 

We come out of the restaurant, which has valet parking, and the young man goes off to get Frank's car. Now, let's just say that we're both in a very good mood, Frank and me, after an excellent dinner -- so when Frank's car arrives we get in and I say to the valet, "Let me ask you something, what's the biggest tip you ever got", and he says, "One hundred dollars". And so, sure enough, just as I expected Frank says, "Oh, a hundred dollars, huh? Well, here's two hundred dollars!". And the young man is blown away, and so happy: "Thank you, Mister Sinatra!" Franks says, "Don't mention it" and is about to drive away when he suddenly stops, looks up at the kid and asks, "Out of curiosity, who was it that gave you the $100 tip?"...and the valet says, "Well, you did, Mister Sinatra -- just last week."

Ah -- I know, I know, in most ways those weren't 'the days'...but, on the other hand, those were the days alright

[Kalen Braley]

I find the arbitrary nature of who does and doesn't have expectation for a tip is confusing at best.

A guy saves you a few seconds by racking your golf bag and he got the hand out for a 10-spot, but the barista who makes that latte just right to get your day off on the right foot, gets maybe a buck, if that?  Or your hair dresser who spends 1/2 hour to get the do looking just right and then eternally grateful just to get a few bucks extra for the effort because most leave nothing.

I sure as hell know which services are more valuable to me....

[Mike Hendren]

Some days on the yacht are just tough.


Bogey

[Tim Martin]

Nothing beat getting selected by the caddie master back when Nixon was still president to work the bag drop at an outing. You would catch a $1.00 a bag to grab a player’s clubs out of their trunk with the tacit agreement that they be loaded onto a cart with a playing partner from their designated group. There was no pooling of tips so what you made you kept. Tallying up the take delivered a similar level of joy to dumping out your bag of Halloween candy at the end of the night(when big bars were de rigueur).

[Anthony Gray]

 I got kicked out of a club once. I lived at a course and most of the members did not live there. As the houses started to fill in there were conflicts with the members that did not. The Choose ups were 85% nonresidents and they were awesome. At times the residents referred to me as choose-up guy. Eventually I stood up to the bullies and got kicked out after I called them on their BS kinda like this guy. I joined a different club and a couple times a month the choose up was at my new club. Eventually the residents ran all those guys off.
 The staff was great. The place had great potential. It’s had several different owners and name changes. Has to even become public at times.

[Joel_Stewart]

Back to the subject:


What has Concert Golf and Peter Nanula contributed to golf?  They buy distressed golf courses on the brink and flip them.


Asking if anyone has any positive remarks about the company.

[Kyle Harris]

One of my clubs is strictly no tipping. It is a very firm rule. The other only allows tips to outside staff and most members use a monthly plan to take care of them. The club bills you a monthly amount you determined that is distributed to all the outside service people based on their hours.

Isn't that sort of like trophies for everyone? I would rather give more to people I thought did a great job, and then just a standard 15% to those who just ... are.

No, it’s called a pay scale.

[Bernie Bell]

Back to the subject:


What has Concert Golf and Peter Nanula contributed to golf?  They buy distressed golf courses on the brink and flip them.


Asking if anyone has any positive remarks about the company.

What do you mean by "contributed to golf"?  Anyway, I have not played the course but my sense is that the experience at Woodmore outside of Dc has been positive.  As you say, it was "on the brink," and now I think it's not.  What's wrong with that?  There are fine courses that are done in ... or taken to the brink ... by foolish member decisions.  If they can be saved, that seems good for "golf."

[Rob Marshall]

Back to the subject:


What has Concert Golf and Peter Nanula contributed to golf?  They buy distressed golf courses on the brink and flip them.


Asking if anyone has any positive remarks about the company.

What's wrong with buying a distressed golf course, turning it around and then flipping it?

[Steve Lapper]

Back to the subject:


What has Concert Golf and Peter Nanula contributed to golf?  They buy distressed golf courses on the brink and flip them.


Asking if anyone has any positive remarks about the company.

I am no way condoning or excusing its actions here, but Concert Golf has indeed proved the savior of quite a number of ill-managed or ill-governed private clubs.


 More often than not, they offer up a financial investment and/or assist in the retirement of older, costly, debt, reinvigorate a Capex budget, upgrade the facility and add amenities, then reset the stage for a more attractive membership recruitment. Several times, they've accelerated the carve out and sale of extraneous property and put more $$ into the club's coffers.


Ultimately, they'll reposition the club to sell it back to the members or an outside buyer for a better price.



FWIW....I personally think throwing the journalist out, while their prerogative, was a petty, ill-advised move.

[David_Tepper]

"FWIW....I personally think throwing the journalist out, while their prerogative, was a petty, ill-advised move."

I totally agree with this. Tom Gorman's article simply reported the facts of the matter and was hardly the "hostile opinion piece" Mr. Straub claims it to be. While petty and vindictive, Concert Golf's treatment of Gorman is minor compared to the egregious way in which the club's employees were treated.

[Rob Marshall]

"FWIW....I personally think throwing the journalist out, while their prerogative, was a petty, ill-advised move."

I totally agree with this. Tom Gorman's article simply reported the facts of the matter and was hardly the "hostile opinion piece" Mr. Straub claims it to be. While petty and vindictive, Concert Golf's treatment of Gorman is minor compared to the egregious way in which the club's employees were treated.

David,
How were the employees treated badly? The club charged a 10% gratuity and a 10% service fee. I would be surprised if the members weren't kicking in another 10% with the bill. That's what I would do. It's not like the gratuity added to the bill was 20% and the club kept half of it. They lost the case on semantics not because they were stealing employee tips. If it had been called "10% admin fee" they wouldn't have lost the case. This was also for events. Not everyday charges.


"For every event held at the club, including weddings, Bar-Mitzvah’s, business conferences, tournaments and outings, Blue Hill CC has added a ten-percent gratuity charge for the wait staff and a ten-percent service charge that goes directly to the club."

As an example. I just had a rehearsal dinner at my club. The manager told me they were going to add a 15% service charge to the bill. I specifically asked him if the servers were getting the 15% and he told me they were getting all of it. I didn't think that was enough so I gave the hostess additional cash to pass out.

[John Kavanaugh]

"The SJC decision could have wide-ranging ramifications on other private clubs, hotels and spas in Massachusetts that have engaged in the practice of clipping their help of hard-earned income, as Blue Hill CC has done.

"The word CLIPPING got the asshole kicked out. It's a horrible word based in hate.

[David_Tepper]

"How were the employees treated badly?"

Rob M. -

Don't ask me, ask the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court judges who ruled 5-1 in the employees favor and awarded them treble damages.

https://newengland.golf/massachusetts-sjc-rules-blue-hill-country-club-violated-tips-act/

DT

[Tim Martin]

"FWIW....I personally think throwing the journalist out, while their prerogative, was a petty, ill-advised move."

I totally agree with this. Tom Gorman's article simply reported the facts of the matter and was hardly the "hostile opinion piece" Mr. Straub claims it to be. While petty and vindictive, Concert Golf's treatment of Gorman is minor compared to the egregious way in which the club's employees were treated.

David,
How were the employees treated badly? The club charged a 10% gratuity and a 10% service fee. I would be surprised if the members weren't kicking in another 10% with the bill. That's what I would do. It's not like the gratuity added to the bill was 20% and the club kept half of it. They lost the case on semantics not because they were stealing employee tips. If it had been called "10% admin fee" they wouldn't have lost the case. This was also for events. Not everyday charges.


"For every event held at the club, including weddings, Bar-Mitzvah’s, business conferences, tournaments and outings, Blue Hill CC has added a ten-percent gratuity charge for the wait staff and a ten-percent service charge that goes directly to the club."

As an example. I just had a rehearsal dinner at my club. The manager told me they were going to add a 15% service charge to the bill. I specifically asked him if the servers were getting the 15% and he told me they were getting all of it. I didn't think that was enough so I gave the hostess additional cash to pass out.

Rob-Why wouldn’t the club charge at least a 15%(if not 20%) gratuity on the bill in an effort to ensure that the employees are properly compensated and case closed? In the original 10% gratuity scenario the members must still come across with cash as you indicated. It reminds me of a club that requires half the caddie fee be billed to the members account and half paid in cash. Although guests are often covered by the member for greens fees they usually take care of their own caddie fees. This requires the guest to have half of the caddie fee billed back to their home club and half paid in cash. If the guest’s home course is public it becomes an even bigger hassle and results from a service being used by the club instead of individual caddies being hired as independent contractors.

[John Kavanaugh]

I haven't seen this posted earlier. Tom's reply:


https://newengland.golf/blue-hill-country-club-retaliates-against-golf-writer-member/

[David_Tepper]

You can read the court's decision here:

https://law.justia.com/cases/massachusetts/court-of-appeals/2020/19-p-761.html

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

I haven't seen this posted earlier. Tom's reply:


https://newengland.golf/blue-hill-country-club-retaliates-against-golf-writer-member/

He writes "The letter is filled with grammatical errors and signed by the general manager...."
A bit later in the article he writes, "Could it have been it something I did?"

[Rob Marshall]

"FWIW....I personally think throwing the journalist out, while their prerogative, was a petty, ill-advised move."

I totally agree with this. Tom Gorman's article simply reported the facts of the matter and was hardly the "hostile opinion piece" Mr. Straub claims it to be. While petty and vindictive, Concert Golf's treatment of Gorman is minor compared to the egregious way in which the club's employees were treated.

David,
How were the employees treated badly? The club charged a 10% gratuity and a 10% service fee. I would be surprised if the members weren't kicking in another 10% with the bill. That's what I would do. It's not like the gratuity added to the bill was 20% and the club kept half of it. They lost the case on semantics not because they were stealing employee tips. If it had been called "10% admin fee" they wouldn't have lost the case. This was also for events. Not everyday charges.


"For every event held at the club, including weddings, Bar-Mitzvah’s, business conferences, tournaments and outings, Blue Hill CC has added a ten-percent gratuity charge for the wait staff and a ten-percent service charge that goes directly to the club."

As an example. I just had a rehearsal dinner at my club. The manager told me they were going to add a 15% service charge to the bill. I specifically asked him if the servers were getting the 15% and he told me they were getting all of it. I didn't think that was enough so I gave the hostess additional cash to pass out.

Rob-Why wouldn’t the club charge at least a 15%(if not 20%) gratuity on the bill in an effort to ensure that the employees are properly compensated and case closed? In the original 10% gratuity scenario the members must still come across with cash as you indicated. It reminds me of a club that requires half the caddie fee be billed to the members account and half paid in cash. Although guests are often covered by the member for greens fees they usually take care of their own caddie fees. This requires the guest to have half of the caddie fee billed back to their home club and half paid in cash. If the guest’s home course is public it becomes an even bigger hassle and results from a service being used by the club instead of individual caddies being hired as independent contractors.

Great question Tim, I don't know. Maybe they pay them more than the standard waiter/waitress wage and they use the 10% to cover that.  At my club it's 15% on events. I like to tip 20% so I gave extra in cash.

[Rob Marshall]

You can read the court's decision here:

https://law.justia.com/cases/massachusetts/court-of-appeals/2020/19-p-761.html

It's all about semantics in the contract and the invoice from what I read. "Administrative vs Service"

[David_Tepper]

Rob -

Yes, semantics and contracts are indeed what the law is about.

A misplaced or omitted comma can wind up costing someone a lot of money. 

DT


 

[Rob Marshall]

Rob -

Yes, semantics and contracts are indeed what the law is about.

As misplaced or omitted comma can wind up costing someone a lot of money. 

DT

I hear ya.

[archie_struthers]

 


Not a fan of the no tipping policy at all. Typically service level drops as incentive is removed. Human beings , you know.


There are certain places where it probably is necessary but for me the proofs would have to be very strong. The worry that the "big tipper" gets an edge is way overblown, most likely by the cheapskates (oops  )

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