Courses with permanent SubAir / PrecisionAire units installed for greens

[jeffwarne]

I'm curious to ask those who oppose the use of SubAir what they do with greens in hot, humid areas?  What I have seen are large fans around greens to get the air moving, and these fans are unsightly and noisy.  Is there any other alternative besides fans?  And are SubAir systems really worse than fans?

What bothers me is that they’re also trying to sell it in Southampton, NY, where you and I could grow grass, and telling you that you have to give your superintendent all the latest tools at his disposal to make the grass perfect.  They sell it as the solution to wet climates, to dry climates, to places with frost issues, etc etc. 


They make it seem like every course needs it, at places that are right now doing just fine without it.  We’re your greens at Brook Hollow not really good before this installation?

I say the same about concrete bunker liners.
I've seen it used at two local clubs that previously had no (member) issues with the bunkers-over 120 plus years.
Now both have always wet, highly compacted bunkers.
Lots of money spent-worse results.

[Tom_Doak]

I say the same about concrete bunker liners.
I've seen it used at two local clubs that previously had no (member) issues with the bunkers-over 120 plus years.
Now both have always wet, highly compacted bunkers.
Lots of money spent-worse results.

Yeah, we spent an awful lot of money at Bel Air so that the greens staff wouldn’t have to fix washouts, when you consider that during the nine months we rebuilt the golf course, there was exactly one rain day.

[Jim Hoak]

Tom Doak—To answer your question about the greens at Brook Hollow in Dallas before the restoration and the introduction of SubAir—Our greens have always been bentgrass and they were pretty good.  However that quality was only achieved with the use at least two months a year of noisy, intrusive fans.  Everyone hated the fans.
We did consider seriously going to Bermuda greens, but that would have been a major change from our history.  So we elected SubAir instead of fans.  Our calculus was that we would endure the two months a year of cooling greens in order to have 10 months a year of better greens with bent vs. Bermuda.  (This decision was based on a comparison of our greens to other Dallas greens using the newest Bermuda grasses.)
The new greens are beautiful, and no one I’ve heard has any second thoughts about this decision.
I might add that we only use the cooling element of the system for the summer months.  It was decided that heating the greens for the few winter times a year in Dallas that that might be necessary was not worth the cost.

[JMEvensky]

Jim Hoak, I'm glad the members like the renovation. I played there a few times >40 years ago with a couple fraternity brothers who were members and loved it.

[SL_Solow]

Jeff, I was told that the "concrete" bunker liners create a perched water table, much like USGA greens.  I was told that if the bunkers remain wet, it is usually due to there not being enough sand in the bunkers.  As for compaction, other than the moisture issue, the club may want to look at the sand they are using.  There are a number of tests used to determine the appropriate sand.  Yes, I agree that we are spending too much on what was supposed to be a hazard.  But if it is installed, the process should be used "correctly".

[Joel_Stewart]

Fallen Oak in MS has them.  Course was developed by the Beau Rivage Casino.  Consequently, budget was not an issue.

I was playing there yesterday and when we left a green on the back side you could hear it running?  I asked a playing partner what it was and he said Sub Air.   I only bring it up because it was in the high 70s and there has been no rain for a week so I don't know if they were cooling down the green or sucking water out?

[John Emerson]

Fallen Oak in MS has them.  Course was developed by the Beau Rivage Casino.  Consequently, budget was not an issue.

I was playing there yesterday and when we left a green on the back side you could hear it running?  I asked a playing partner what it was and he said Sub Air.   I only bring it up because it was in the high 70s and there has been no rain for a week so I don't know if they were cooling down the green or sucking water out?

Are you sure he was right?  If it hasn’t rained, and the temperature was perfect for growing cool season grass, then I cannot think of a reason they should be on.  Maybe they were blowing out the irrigation system?

[mike_beene]

One thing about the fans (and I am trying to be more careful) but they can be a serious help in avoiding heat stroke in the bad Dallas time mid July through Sept 15 or so. I have seen Dallas CC run sub air and fans at same time. Is sub air more efficient than a loud fan system , or is it just either one is equally fine. We have a member turning fans off so his precious putt is easier. Ours don’t immediately come back on.

[John Emerson]

Tom Doak—To answer your question about the greens at Brook Hollow in Dallas before the restoration and the introduction of SubAir—Our greens have always been bentgrass and they were pretty good.  However that quality was only achieved with the use at least two months a year of noisy, intrusive fans.  Everyone hated the fans.
We did consider seriously going to Bermuda greens, but that would have been a major change from our history.  So we elected SubAir instead of fans.  Our calculus was that we would endure the two months a year of cooling greens in order to have 10 months a year of better greens with bent vs. Bermuda.  (This decision was based on a comparison of our greens to other Dallas greens using the newest Bermuda grasses.)
The new greens are beautiful, and no one I’ve heard has any second thoughts about this decision.
I might add that we only use the cooling element of the system for the summer months.  It was decided that heating the greens for the few winter times a year in Dallas that that might be necessary was not worth the cost.

I have yet to find one piece of peer reviewed research that suggests that subair systems cool the root system better than actually applying water. The research actually shows that water is far superior to subair when we are wanting to cool.  Couple that applied water with fans and subair falls flat.  Subair is overhyped.  We had it at a course I was at and not once ever used it. Not once did we even consider it. The owner wanted it during construction and we said it was wasn’t needed, but he didn’t care and wanted it.    This course was in the transition zone where managing bentgrass greens is extremely difficult all the damn year, more or less and we always had good surfaces without using the subair.


I would bet that maybe bentgrass was possible in Dallas in decades past but, not going with a warm season grass may be a mistake going forward.  You will probably need to change in the near future if you want to have acceptable surfaces in the summer. Each year it will be more difficult and more costly to the point where it makes no sense, if it doesn’t already.  Just me taking a few minutes to see the weather and the cool season turfs growth potential in Dallas, I cannot understand why one would grow any bentgrass there regardless of a clubs history.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

We put it in all greens in the Brook Hollow, Dallas, redo.  Hard to have good bentgrass greens in Texas in the summer without them.

Do you still have fans as well, as at Dallas National?

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

For my part, Jim, no offence intended: I don't know how you'd otherwise maintain greens in that climate, during the summers.
But the concept/idea/system as a whole does seem antithetical to the history and roots and ethos of the game -- to 'play the course as you find it, and the ball as it lies', outside, on a field of play that 'nature' has provided and that rules the day.
It has 'practical' value, no doubt, but as a 'principle' I can't say that I'd be anxious to see it embraced more widely.

Doesnt this all depend upon the grasses used?
I am sure that perhaps a decade ago Bent grass was somewhat of a status symbol, but with the tremendous advancements in Bermuda hybrids, I do not really see the point in working so hard to keep Bent in the Southern climate.


So many courses in the South have great greens year round because of such hybrids, the most advanced almost grainless.


Trinity Forest comes to mind, those putting surfaces are as good as any I have ever played on and certainly able to achieve green speeds that surpass that needed.


Is it still more of a status symbol or are there other benefits that a non superintendent like me isnt aware of ?

[Jim Hoak]

Michael, Brook Hollow built sites next to greens for fans, but we hope to use them not at all--or very seldom.
And, yes, the use of SubAir and fans in Dallas does depend on the grass chosen for greens.  We made the decision--after much research and debate--that we wanted to stay with bentgrass on our greens.  We looked at the greens at many other Dallas courses.  And we felt that bentgrass greens in Dallas are better on our course than "warm weather" grasses for 10 months a year.  We were willing to put up with the July-August issues that are raised by bentgrass greens in exchange for the rest of the year.
I'm sure you can argue with our decision--and, yes, new grasses may make bentgrass less compelling--but for us, we felt that continuing with bentgrass made the most sense.  And, no, it was not a status symbol.  Looking at other Dallas courses, we felt that bentgrass was still best for us for 10 months a year.  (Other courses may have a preponderance of play in those two summer months; Brook Hollow does not.)

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Michael, Brook Hollow built sites next to greens for fans, but we hope to use them not at all--or very seldom.
And, yes, the use of SubAir and fans in Dallas does depend on the grass chosen for greens.  We made the decision--after much research and debate--that we wanted to stay with bentgrass on our greens.  We looked at the the greens at many other Dallas courses.  And we felt that bentgrass greens in Dallas are better on our course than "warm weather" grasses for 10 months a year.  We were willing to put up with the July-August issues that are raised by bentgrass greens in exchange for the rest of the year.
I'm sure you can argue with our decision--and, yes, new grasses may make bentgrass less compelling--but for us, we felt that continuing with bentgrass made the most sense.  And, no, it was not a status symbol.

Thank you very much, if I had read more of the thread I would have got those answers


Cannot wait to see the restoration, the few pictures I have seen are wonderful, Congratulations on the job well done.

[John Kavanaugh]

Green side fans simply say "I'm doing the best I can and if your greens die it's not for lack of effort." Kinda like buying your partner a big diamond on an off year anniversary.

[David Wuthrich]

Jim,
Was fortunate to play your course last month.  Greens were perfect.  Would never have known that you had SubAir unless our host told us.  Agree that is it needed in Texas, especially if you have bentgrass.

[Joel_Stewart]

Martis Camp in Lake Tahoe has them.  I doubt they ever use them to cool down the greens since its never that hot but they wanted  to warm the greens in April or so to wake them up.  The greens there are very good but they have a great superintendent and a big budget.

[mike_beene]

I like putting on bent more than Bermuda and it really is just a little soft in August and early September. Anybody with any sense avoids August golf in Dallas. We don’t have sub air but with fans and tree clearing our August greens run as fast as you want and chips release fine. It seems the Bermuda courses have more down time for punching or slicing.Brook Hollow has great greens and I don’t know why they would change.

[Anthony_Nysse]

In reading over the comments, there seems to be a little confusion as to what each mechanical piece does.


Sub Air PULLS moisture though the profile, in the drain lines & away. More often than not when you hear Sub Air on tv, its during or after a rain event. Its main purpose is to remove water from the profile. You also do NOT need to rebuild greens to install Subair.


Precision Air pulls moisture, also but its main selling point is being able to pump warm or cool air into the root zone. These have become very popular the last 5 years with Oakland Hills, Merion, Southern Hills, Caves Valley, Baltusrol, Muirfield Village, Bel-Air installed them to name a few.


Turf Fans-These are used in a effort to create air movement. Fans can lower the canopy temperature 4-5*, which can mean the difference of bentgrass dying in an afternoon or surviving.


Hydronics is a sub surface system that uses water to heat or cool the root zone, upwards of 20* even. The thought of having bentgrass with a soil temp of 65* when its 90*+ out is incredible. On bermudagrass, you would be able to avoid overseeding, avoid frost & also avoid winter kill. Incredible when you think about it.

[Jim Hoak]

Well written, Anthony.  I knew all that, but couldn't say it as clearly as you did.
At Brook Hollow, our use of our hydronics system is almost purely to run super cold water underneath our greens in the summer months, so as to allow us to have good bentgrass greens in the Dallas summers without fans.
It works for us and we are very happy with our decision.

[Tim Martin]

A takeaway for me from this thread is how highly prized bent grass greens are in the U.S.

[Jim Hoak]

Good conclusion, Tim.  I can't disagree with that.
There have been tremendous improvements in the last several years with Bermuda grasses for greens--and other "warm weather" grasses.  But as we analyzed it for our greens--and we looked at other Dallas courses that had gone with these new grasses--we concluded that they still could not match bentgrass greens on a full 12-month basis, and certainly could not warrant changing from 100 years of bentgrass greens that our members loved.
I would challenge any Dallas-area course without bentgrass greens to play the Brook Hollow greens and conclude that their new-grass greens were equal over the course of a year.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Good conclusion, Tim.  I can't disagree with that.
There have been tremendous improvements in the last several years with Bermuda grasses for greens--and other "warm weather" grasses.  But as we analyzed it for our greens--and we looked at other Dallas courses that had gone with these new grasses--we concluded that they still could not match bentgrass greens on a full 12-month basis, and certainly could not warrant changing from 100 years of bentgrass greens that our members loved.
I would challenge any Dallas-area course without bentgrass greens to play the Brook Hollow greens and conclude that their new-grass greens were equal over the course of a year.

I think that some club in FL will eventually try bentgrass again with the installation of hydronics. Red Stick has bentgrass 10 years ago, Old Marsh had it 15 years ago and as recent as 2015, Lake Wales CC was interseeding with, though I think that it was more for marketing.


Mission Impossible - Golf Course Industry




Those that have hydronics has reported better day to day control, less hours required by staff, less down time for aerification, higher member satisfaction, more usage & better consistency. These things all lead to paying for the install in a shorter period of time.

[SB]

Anthony,


How much does a hydronic system cost?  I assume you can only install it if you are completely rebuilding your greens?

[Anthony_Nysse]

Anthony,


How much does a hydronic system cost?  I assume you can only install it if you are completely rebuilding your greens?

Yes, it needs to be placed near the base of the rootzone. Russ installed hydronics at LACC with Gil & did it again at SHCC. Please see the video.


It's a 7-figure investment.


Historic Renovations at Southern Hills Country Club Golf Course - YouTube

[Michael Wolf]

For those of use who live in that Dallas/Birmingham/Atlanta zone, a difficult # to estimate in any calculation of bent vs bermuda, fans vs precision air vs hydroponics, is whether there's going to be any increased play on the golf course in July and August no matter how good the greens are.


My club closes for almost a month in the summer. Nobody complains - because everyone is at the beach or Scotland or anywhere with air conditioning. I don't think any of the options discussed would change that.


Michael