[Tommy Williamsen]

This past September and October I had the privilege to play some great old courses and some interesting renovated courses in the north east. The renovated courses had all new grass on the greens and they looked pristine. Whenever I go to a venerable old course I tend to love their greens more than brand new ones. Most of them have a variety of bent grasses and some poa. It makes for a great look. great putting surfaces, band it helps me judge distance better on my putts. It also seems to take out a lot of grain, or the little grain there is in bent. The contrast and texture make for an interesting look but also a tighter weave than some of the newer strains.


Am I alone in thinking that?

[Matt_Cohn]

I can't say I really think about the look. They can be orange or light purple, splotchy or monochrome, but if they're smooth, firm, and reasonably quick then I'm happy. And of course, I tend to associate "contrast" and "texture" with greens that are not smooth.

[Rob Marshall]

Tommy,
I live in the northeast. Most of the greens up here are bent with poa. A lot of them, maybe even most, have more poa than bent. I laugh every year when I hear Pros on TV complaining about the poa on the greens at Pebble and Torrey. Never seemed to bother Tiger. I think it rolls great but I've been playing on them for almost 50 years. I love the look and the feel.


Oak Hill has gassed their greens a number of times in an attempt to get rid of the poa, they always seem to have mixed results. I know the new greens are looking really pure but I doubt that it will last. I don't think you can ever keep the poa from creeping back in. John Blain can probably tell you more about the previous times they tried to kill it off.

[Mark_Fine]

Tommy,
One of my favorite comments was from a Greenskeeper at St. Andrews when he was asked during The Open what kind of grass were on the greens.  He said he didn't know     You have to love it.  It's grass and he maintains it just like the numerous varieties in the fairways and rough,...


Too many, especially on this side of the pond, are hung up on perfect uniform playing conditions.  Honestly if a course is over manicured and looks artificial it won't get super high marks from me.  Also some courses are now starting to look so uniform with one or maybe two types of grass across the entire golf course.  I miss the patina on some of the older courses of the various strains. 

[Anthony_Nysse]

Tommy,
I live in the northeast. Most of the greens up here are bent with poa. A lot of them, maybe even most, have more poa than bent. I laugh every year when I hear Pros on TV complaining about the poa on the greens at Pebble and Torrey. Never seemed to bother Tiger. I think it rolls great but I've been playing on them for almost 50 years. I love the look and the feel.


Oak Hill has gassed their greens a number of times in an attempt to get rid of the poa, they always seem to have mixed results. I know the new greens are looking really pure but I doubt that it will last. I don't think you can ever keep the poa from creeping back in. John Blain can probably tell you more about the previous times they tried to kill it off.

Over the last 10 years, there has been a lot more resources dedicated to keeping bentgrass pure, as long as you start with a pure stand. Some courses I know are 12-15 years since grassing & remain pure to this day. Much of it is a level of commitment, aerification process & timing, but we also have a new product called PoaCure. This is certainly not cheap, but is keeping the poa at bay.


EPA grants unconditional registration of PoaCure on golf courses - Golf Course Industry

[MCirba]

Late contender for thread/post of the year.


Bravo, Tommy!

[Tim Martin]

Tommy,
I live in the northeast. Most of the greens up here are bent with poa. A lot of them, maybe even most, have more poa than bent. I laugh every year when I hear Pros on TV complaining about the poa on the greens at Pebble and Torrey. Never seemed to bother Tiger. I think it rolls great but I've been playing on them for almost 50 years. I love the look and the feel.


Oak Hill has gassed their greens a number of times in an attempt to get rid of the poa, they always seem to have mixed results. I know the new greens are looking really pure but I doubt that it will last. I don't think you can ever keep the poa from creeping back in. John Blain can probably tell you more about the previous times they tried to kill it off.

Bent/Poa in the Northeast is predominant. Some courses embrace/accept the poa and others make it a mission to try and snuff it out. Like Tommy and Rob said the combination especially in the Fall is terrific to putt on. Sure you will get some poa seed heads as the day wears on but all in all pretty smooth and pure. If your course is a high profile/perennial tournament host then there is more pressure to eradicate it.

[John Emerson]

This past September and October I had the privilege to play some great old courses and some interesting renovated courses in the north east. The renovated courses had all new grass on the greens and they looked pristine. Whenever I go to a venerable old course I tend to love their greens more than brand new ones. Most of them have a variety of bent grasses and some poa. It makes for a great look. great putting surfaces, band it helps me judge distance better on my putts. It also seems to take out a lot of grain, or the little grain there is in bent. The contrast and texture make for an interesting look but also a tighter weave than some of the newer strains.


Am I alone in thinking that?

I think if you’re saying you like the look of a turf hodge-podge that is one thing and that is completely subjective and that is completely OK.  What is not subjective is surface smoothness and quality of roll from a pure stand of the newer improved varities of bentgrass.  They are superior in almost every single agronomic and playing facet.

[MCirba]

I'm pretty sure we can get consistent microscopic heights, max 1.3% slope, and perfect smoothness of artificial turf, yes?

[Tommy Williamsen]

This past September and October I had the privilege to play some great old courses and some interesting renovated courses in the north east. The renovated courses had all new grass on the greens and they looked pristine. Whenever I go to a venerable old course I tend to love their greens more than brand new ones. Most of them have a variety of bent grasses and some poa. It makes for a great look. great putting surfaces, band it helps me judge distance better on my putts. It also seems to take out a lot of grain, or the little grain there is in bent. The contrast and texture make for an interesting look but also a tighter weave than some of the newer strains.


Am I alone in thinking that?

I think if you’re saying you like the look of a turf hodge-podge that is one thing and that is completely subjective and that is completely OK.  What is not subjective is surface smoothness and quality of roll from a pure stand of the newer improved varities of bentgrass.  They are superior in almost every single agronomic and playing facet.

I hear what you are saying about the purity of the newer bent grasses but I played Franklin Hills this Autumn. It had one of the best putting surfaces I have ever played. It had a hodgepodge of grasses. I think they were superior to the brand new greens at Oakland Hills or Baltusrol.

[mike_malone]

I felt that the bent we put in in 2000 was too smooth. It was easier to play because it seemed to have less resistance.


  Now we have significant poa and the breaks are awesome again.

[Jim_Coleman]

   That’s a new one - the greens were too smooth.  Were the tees too flat? The bunkers too well placed?  Contrarianism can be beautiful.

[John Emerson]

This past September and October I had the privilege to play some great old courses and some interesting renovated courses in the north east. The renovated courses had all new grass on the greens and they looked pristine. Whenever I go to a venerable old course I tend to love their greens more than brand new ones. Most of them have a variety of bent grasses and some poa. It makes for a great look. great putting surfaces, band it helps me judge distance better on my putts. It also seems to take out a lot of grain, or the little grain there is in bent. The contrast and texture make for an interesting look but also a tighter weave than some of the newer strains.


Am I alone in thinking that?

I think if you’re saying you like the look of a turf hodge-podge that is one thing and that is completely subjective and that is completely OK.  What is not subjective is surface smoothness and quality of roll from a pure stand of the newer improved varities of bentgrass.  They are superior in almost every single agronomic and playing facet.

I hear what you are saying about the purity of the newer bent grasses but I played Franklin Hills this Autumn. It had one of the best putting surfaces I have ever played. It had a hodgepodge of grasses. I think they were superior to the brand new greens at Oakland Hills or Baltusrol.

That is anecdotal and not proof.  Cool thing about science is that it doesn’t care about your opinion.  The science says that the improved varieties are superior

[Adam_Messix]

Gentlemen,


Let's give the new greens some time.  The L93/007/777 at Oakland Hills will almost certainly lead to a mottled look[size=78%].  Then again, I see 20+ year old L93 greens daily that have various color shades, almost no poa in them and roll well.[/size]

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

I hear what you are saying about the purity of the newer bent grasses but I played Franklin Hills this Autumn. It had one of the best putting surfaces I have ever played. It had a hodgepodge of grasses. I think they were superior to the brand new greens at Oakland Hills or Baltusrol.

Since it was specifically mentioned, Baltusrol reused their old turf on the greens (like Winged Foot did) so it has the same putting surfaces as it did prior to the reno, although the greens themselves were rebuilt and expanded.


Adam beat me to the punch too on L93 as the older it gets the more it segregates out to its parent varieties and give a nice old school mottled poa/bent look, even though it's all bentgrass.

[Adam Lawrence]

This is a fundamental difference between traditional British and American greenkeeping philosophy.


The idea of a polystand of turf species is central to old school British greenkeeping. 'Fescue' and 'bent' are not individual grasses -- there are many, many different species of fescue and multiple families of bentgrasses.


When a traditional British links stand is described as 'fescue/bent' it means that it should be dominated by different strains within the two families.


When Americans refer to 'bentgrass' they are generally referring to particular strains within the family of creeping bents (Agrostis stolonifera). Creeping bents are rare in the UK; when you see a reference to a fescue/bent stand it is usually referring to species within the family of common or browntop bent (Agrostis capillaris).


The virtue of a polystand, from a British point of view, is that if one species does badly for a while, the others can fill in and you still have decent greens.

[Mark_Fine]

Adam,
 

[archie_struthers]

 


Tommy I totally agree. The best greens in our area year after year are the older hybrid poa-bents. 


The new ones can't match them for density and visual appeal. The issue tends to be disease resistance.

[SL_Solow]

I have been involved as a greens committee member and chair since 1992.  I have chaired our District's agronomic program, which is the only district to have its own full time agronomist, since 2000.  I am a traditionalist as all of you who have been on this Board for any period of time must know.  When our Illinois Hall of Fame Superintendent began to push to regrass our 1921 CH Alison greens I fought it hard.  They were very good and had the look that many of us love.  I was afraid that the course would lose its character. Our Super showed me the length of our roots in the middle of a hot humid Chicago summer (aside to Adam, very different from the British Isles). He explained that we were basically growing our greens hydroponically.  Tougher to obtain desirable speeds (a matter of taste), tougher to prevent disease, requiring more inputs and water, tougher to keep alive.  All of this from the first Super to go public with the need to reduce maintained turf and to naturalize golf courses and who had served us since 1960, retiring in 2008.  Clearly not one to embrace change for its own sake.  So we embarked on an aggressive drill and fill program, gassed our greens and reseeded with an A1 and A4 blend. I note that the science has advanced since we completed our project. This was more than 10 years ago.  Our greens are better than they were before.  Smoother, less water, less inputs and a real root structure.  We have some poa intrusion but very little thanks to our crew.  We can talk about appearance but the data is very clear.  In any climate that has hot summers, the new  grasses perform better.  The studies have been done and the data is clear but all one has to do is take a pocket knife and look at roots in late July or early August and you will understand the difference.  If one doesn't care about performance and prefers appearance so be it.  But you are kidding yourself if you believe your opinion is performance based.  I freely admit that I fought the same fight but I did the research and have observed results in the field.  My education continues but there is no going backward.  I am waiting to hear from someone who actually must grow the grass and maintain a golf course who feels otherwise.

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