True Links courses in the USA - can we agree?

[Garland Bayley]

Two things.

Peper's book definitely lists courses that are borderline. As much as 1/2 not links land.
When it comes to a mix of links land and non links land, Florence Golf Links (formerly Sand Pines) has perhaps a little over half the course in links land. Unfortunately I cannot attest to the drainage of the links land portion as I played there in the summer.
My winter experience at Gearhart had drives landing in the fairway taking as large or larger pitch marks as I get in a clay based, sand top dressed course inland by Portland. I doubt it qualifies as a links. It had a fast and firm reputation when people played on its unirrigated surface in the summer.
While Gearhart was very soft in November when I played there, I played Ocean Dunes (Florence, OR) and found it to be quite firm in March during a full winter of Oregon Coast rain. I cannot attest to the amount of fescue (if any).

[Sven Nilsen]

Sean:


Yours is the definition of a neo-brit.


Sven

[Sean_A]

Sean:

Yours is the definition of a neo-brit.

Sven

It is the definition that has been around longer than I have.

Ciao

[Sven Nilsen]

If this thread has shown anything, its that there isn’t one clear, coherent definition.  And certainly not one that has been around for a number of years.

[Matt MacIver]

  If you can put from 100 yards in its links. I witnessed a two putt birdie from the tee box on the par 3 8th at kingsbarns. Putter of the tee than a one putt green. I would assume the ocean a sea contributes more to weather but I’m going to use the putting from 100 yards out criteria. Fescue is hidden in that criteria someplace.

I did (the first half) of this and felt more alive than I ever had on a golf course. Ball rolled 20 seconds down the walking path to a back left pin. Caddy and companions were amazed. I saw it and felt it, to 10 feet. Will save the score for another day. Links.

[Sean_A]

If this thread has shown anything, its that there isn’t one clear, coherent definition.  And certainly not one that has been around for a number of years.

There are always those looking to reinvent new old terms to suit their agenda.

Ciao

[Sven Nilsen]

If I have an agenda in this conversation I’d love to have you tell me what it is.


I just think your definition (which to be clear are your words and not from some bible on links golf) is a little too narrow.

[Charles Lund]

I recall a discussion of links courses a few years ago when I cited Peper's book as an authoritative source.  Sean made a similar contribution that utilized the same defining characteristics.  I've heard some Midwest courses referred to as Prairie links.


Three courses on the Mornington Peninsula (St. Andrews Beach, The National - Moonah, and The National - Gunnamatta which was the redesign of The National Ocean) have links playing characteristics.  They lie on a narrow peninsula separating Port Phiilip Bay and The Bass Strait.  The nearby course called The Dunes has similar playing characteristics.  They are closer to the Bass Strait than Port Phillip Bay.


Barnbougle Dunes and Barnbougle Lost Farm are generally thought of as true links and 100 to 150 miles away and across the Bass Strait in Tasmania.


I'd be curious how Tom Doak thinks about the distinctions in this discussion, in view of his familiarity with these courses.  Also, how does Tara Iti and the nearby course under construction fit in as links/links like.


Charles Lund

[Sean_A]

If I have an agenda in this conversation I’d love to have you tell me what it is.

I just think your definition (which to be clear are your words and not from some bible on links golf) is a little too narrow.

I didn't wake up one day and decide that links courses are on links land. I am fairly certain that idea has been around long before me. I just figure that since these courses are named after the land they sit on that it makes sense that this part of the definition is elemental. That may be too narrow for your liking and that's ok. I don't see a need to keep revising the definition everytime someone has a beef with it. It's a similar situation to Redan. It's used so often and incorrectly that the word may or may not convey the intended description. It's confusing when people choose to personally redefine words. So I choose to stick with the traditional definition of links.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

As I stated earlier, I think of links first and foremost from how the land was formed.


But secondly, I do think a links needs to have been connected to the sea at some time in recent history. As Sean says, the very name is derived from this parameter. By recent history, I mean since settlements began to farm outside it and therefore define & name the use of the land linking the farmland to the sea.


And as much as some might not like to hear it, I believe Brits are more entitled to decide what the definition is over anyone else. These isles were home to 200 of the 250 courses before any existed elsewhere.

[Sven Nilsen]

As I stated earlier, I think of links first and foremost from how the land was formed.


But secondly, I do think a links needs to have been connected to the sea at some time in recent history. As Sean says, the very name is derived from this parameter. By recent history, I mean since settlements began to farm outside it and therefore define & name the use of the land linking the farmland to the sea.


And as much as some might not like to hear it, I believe Brits are more entitled to decide what the definition is over anyone else. These isles were home to 200 of the 250 courses before any existed elsewhere.

Of all the PR/Marketing tricks, leave it to the Brits to claim expertise over what is and isn't a links. 


Kind of like what the French did with Champagne.

[Kalen Braley]

Sven,

Along the lines of your last post, this reminds of how they define and regulate beer in Germany.

"German beer is brewed according to the Reinheitsgebot, which permits only water, hops, and malt as ingredients; and stipulates that beers not exclusively using barley-malt, such as wheat beer, must be top-fermented"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_in_Germany

Safe to say they are a missing out on so so much by limiting their ingredients and methodology to just this.  Their loss....

[Mark_Fine]

Many/most golfers over here think any course without trees is a links     The one comment I will make is when you are playing a true links course you know it.  It is a different game, at least for most Americans, one they are not familiar with. 

[Jeff Schley]

Great discussion ....... so the answer to the question in the thread title is........ NO!   

[Sean_A]

Sven,

Along the lines of your last post, this reminds of how they define and regulate beer in Germany.

"German beer is brewed according to the Reinheitsgebot, which permits only water, hops, and malt as ingredients; and stipulates that beers not exclusively using barley-malt, such as wheat beer, must be top-fermented"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_in_Germany

Safe to say they are a missing out on so so much by limiting their ingredients and methodology to just this.  Their loss....

Kalen

There are many products in Europe which are strictly controlled.  It definitely is partly due to pr, but I also think in the end, it is a good way to help reduce shysterism and the reinvention of terms.

Ciao

[Kalen Braley]

Sven,

Along the lines of your last post, this reminds of how they define and regulate beer in Germany.

"German beer is brewed according to the Reinheitsgebot, which permits only water, hops, and malt as ingredients; and stipulates that beers not exclusively using barley-malt, such as wheat beer, must be top-fermented"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_in_Germany

Safe to say they are a missing out on so so much by limiting their ingredients and methodology to just this.  Their loss....

Kalen

There are many products in Europe which are strictly controlled.  It definitely is partly due to pr, but I also think in the end, it is a good way to help reduce shysterism and the reinvention of terms.

Ciao

Sean,

I'm all in favor of regulations from the prospective of consumer safety and accurate food labeling.  But when same is done in the name of purity and tradition to stifle innovation and creativity?  That's when you lose me.

Come to the West Coast sometime and do a Beer Tour from WA state to San Diego...just chock full of micro breweries pumping out terrific stuff.  Mind...and taste buds...will be blown! 

[Ally Mcintosh]

As I stated earlier, I think of links first and foremost from how the land was formed.


But secondly, I do think a links needs to have been connected to the sea at some time in recent history. As Sean says, the very name is derived from this parameter. By recent history, I mean since settlements began to farm outside it and therefore define & name the use of the land linking the farmland to the sea.


And as much as some might not like to hear it, I believe Brits are more entitled to decide what the definition is over anyone else. These isles were home to 200 of the 250 courses before any existed elsewhere.

Of all the PR/Marketing tricks, leave it to the Brits to claim expertise over what is and isn't a links. 


Kind of like what the French did with Champagne.

From some of the comments on this thread, it’s just as well it’s left with us.

[Sven Nilsen]

Kind of like what the French did with Champagne.

From some of the comments on this thread, it’s just as well it’s left with us.



I think you've proved Tom's point from earlier in the thread.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Kind of like what the French did with Champagne.

From some of the comments on this thread, it’s just as well it’s left with us.



I think you've proved Tom's point from earlier in the thread.

You’ll need to remind me…

[Sean_A]

Sven,

Along the lines of your last post, this reminds of how they define and regulate beer in Germany.

"German beer is brewed according to the Reinheitsgebot, which permits only water, hops, and malt as ingredients; and stipulates that beers not exclusively using barley-malt, such as wheat beer, must be top-fermented"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_in_Germany

Safe to say they are a missing out on so so much by limiting their ingredients and methodology to just this.  Their loss....

Kalen

There are many products in Europe which are strictly controlled.  It definitely is partly due to pr, but I also think in the end, it is a good way to help reduce shysterism and the reinvention of terms.

Ciao

Sean,

I'm all in favor of regulations from the prospective of consumer safety and accurate food labeling.  But when same is done in the name of purity and tradition to stifle innovation and creativity?  That's when you lose me.

Come to the West Coast sometime and do a Beer Tour from WA state to San Diego...just chock full of micro breweries pumping out terrific stuff.  Mind...and taste buds...will be blown! 

You can be as creative as you like. Just don't call your creativity champagne.

Ciao

[Garland Bayley]

Great discussion ....... so the answer to the question in the thread title is........ NO!   

We've made some progress. For those that want their courses in the Sand Hills to be links, perhaps we can get them to accept the term prairie links as opposed to the original seaside links, which is the default meaning when just the word links is used.

Then of course, we have Chambers Bay, which in a similar vein should be called a sound links.

[Tom_Doak]

Three courses on the Mornington Peninsula (St. Andrews Beach, The National - Moonah, and The National - Gunnamatta which was the redesign of The National Ocean) have links playing characteristics.  They lie on a narrow peninsula separating Port Phiilip Bay and The Bass Strait.  The nearby course called The Dunes has similar playing characteristics.  They are closer to the Bass Strait than Port Phillip Bay.

Barnbougle Dunes and Barnbougle Lost Farm are generally thought of as true links and 100 to 150 miles away and across the Bass Strait in Tasmania.

I'd be curious how Tom Doak thinks about the distinctions in this discussion, in view of his familiarity with these courses.  Also, how does Tara Iti and the nearby course under construction fit in as links/links like.

Hi Charles:


If Barnbougle isn't a links course, I don't know what is.  I suppose some might say it's TOO dunesy, and it wasn't being grazed at the edge of town before it became a golf course.  As we have seen, many in Britain and Ireland want to reserve the links brand entirely for themselves.


St. Andrews Beach and the other Mornington Peninsula courses were ACTIVELY BEING GRAZED before the golf courses were built, yet I seldom hear anyone speak of them as links, because the locals invented the term "Cups land" for them and that became popular in Australia.  I hope they trademarked the term!      But they are not fescue, except for the approaches and surrounds at St Andrews Beach and The National (Gunnamatta)


Tara Iti, of course, was planted in pine trees at one point before we revegetated it, so that's maybe 9/10 on the links scale.  It is 100% fescue, whereas Paraparaumu is not, and again, if Paraparaumu is not a links, I don't know what is.  The Renaissance Club was also once planted in trees, and I don't know whether that passes muster in the UK or not.


If I had to rank all the courses I've done in order of being a true links, it would go like this:


1  St Patrick's
2  Barnbougle
3-4  Pacific Dunes and Old Macdonald
5  Tara Iti
6  Ballyneal
7  The Renaissance Club
8  Dismal River


I would call somewhere between 4 and 8 a true links.  Those who won't accept the first four, won't accept anything built today.

[Charles Lund]

Tom,

Thanks for te comments about the Mornington Peninsula courses.  The Dunes in that area was the first course I played in Australia.  The following day I played The National - Moonah and the Old Ocean.


I never doubted for a minute that Barnbougle Dunes (and Lost Fsrm) were links courses.  I think Port Fairy is included in most lists.


I started playing Rosapenna in 2009 when there was Sandy Hiils and abother 18 holes which included the Tom Morris nine along Sheephaven Bay and holes across the road.  The new nine was set to open.  I returned on many trips between 2009 and 2018 and played both courses many times.  These courses and the loop of links courses called the North and West Coast links in Ireland became the mainstay of 13 trips in all to Ireland. 


Congratulations on your efforts at St. Patricks.  I am hoping for a return to Ireland.


Chsrles Lund

[Ally Mcintosh]

Tom,


I don’t want to keep all the links courses to ourselves. I just think the British have slightly more entitlement to define what a links is, in much the same way as you have slightly more entitlement to define what you call minimalism...


Links is defined purely by how the land was formed and that land has to have connected to the sea in recent history. Those two are a given.


The only two parameters that are up for question are the vegetation (I.e. Can you have a links with warm season grasses?)... and whether the land still qualifies if it has been severely altered by man?


For that second point, you could think of any piece of land that was once links but had then been farmed and ploughed for centuries. Or perhaps land that had deliberate forestation that has changed the nature of the sub-soil.


Trees are absolutely natural on links land when they have succeeded as part of the evolution. You will find them quite removed from the sea, just before the land turns heavier.


So there are a couple of subjective elements. Hence never a clear definition. But people seem determined to make everything subjective.


Barnbougle and St. Patrick’s are surely links. From what you said about Pacific Dunes, it sounds like it is also a links.


Renaissance Club has many pure links holes and a few that come under that subjective category because the land (once links) had been changed quite significantly by human forestation. I would still definitely categorise it as links.


Tara Iti sounds like the same so only you know how significantly those characteristics had moved from links land. Is there true dune land connected to the area where no forest has been planted? Is it all fescue and cool season vegetation?


Ballyneal and Dismal River I say no. Why don’t we go with Garland’s “Prairie Links” title?

[Niall C]

This thread is turning into GCA's equivalent of the Ryder Cup. Generally I'm not one for an argument  but here go's;

Sean is of course correct when he says the definition of links courses was set more than a century ago. Interestingly they had a similar discussion then when the first golf boom happened and inland courses started popping up.

As for those that say that to follow the existing definition or not being able to change it stifles "creativity", I say nonsense. That's like saying Tom Doak was stifling my creativity if he took out an injunction to stop me opening up a GCA practice and calling it Renaissance. Clearly I could still design (absolutely marvellous) golf courses but I wouldn't be deceiving the public in doing so. That's why under European law there are rules for certain products such as champagne so that the public aren't conned into buying some watered down, bastardised version of the real thing.

To me that's fairly simple and you don't need to be a Brit to see it or even recognise a links course when you see it. With regards those very fine courses that aren't links courses, perhaps the marketing people need to try and come up with a definition that both tells the punters what it is and also one that exudes quality ?

Niall