True Links courses in the USA - can we agree?

[Jeff Schley]

I was going to post in Tom's thread "every links course is no lower than a 6" thread, but didn't want to thread jack. I did a search for links courses in the USA and didn't find that, but thought it would be good to discuss them here.

Can we agree on courses that are in the USA that we would classify as a true links course? Probably not  , but it will be a good discussion and further the conversation of what is/isn't a links.  If you go by Campbell & Peper's "True Links" there are only 4 in the entire USA and 250 in the world, as of 2010. Can you name the 4 US ones btw for bonus points?


I appreciate their strict classification, I don't totally agree myself. So I don't think it necessary to come up with a narrow definition as the "True Links" book, but our collective views on what you feel are true links golf courses in the USA would be interesting as we are an eclectic bunch. Various viewpoints are healthy and valued, group think can be counterproductive to moving a topic forward, unless obvious.  Please list a reason on why you would list a course a true links as this discussion will yield the value as opposed to another list.

[Andrew Harvie]

Last I checked, there were only 5 courses in North America that fit the proper definition: Pacific Dunes, Bandon Dunes, Old Macdonald, Cabot Links, Highlands Links in Massachusetts. I assume Sheep Ranch counts also, so that is 6. I am sure there are other courses that are close, but I remember reading these 5 (now 6) are the only ones that fit the proper definition.


With that being said, I've seen quite a few courses that seem to be very linksy. Kittansett for one, but perhaps is closer to a British heathland style. I am a little surprised Maidstone doesn't count, although I have not been there.

[Adam Lawrence]

Last I checked, there were only 5 courses in North America that fit the proper definition: Pacific Dunes, Bandon Dunes, Old Macdonald, Cabot Links, Highlands Links in Massachusetts. Sheep Ranch counts also, so that is 6. I am sure there are other courses that are close, but I remember reading these 5 (now 6) are the only ones that fit the proper definition.


With that being said, I've seen quite a few courses that seem to be very linksy. Kittansett for one, but perhaps is closer to a British heathland style. I am a little surprised Maidstone doesn't count, although I have not been there.

Cabot certainly looks and feels like a real links, but as it is built on a former coal mine, I think it needs a little more analysis.

[Brett Meyer]

Certainly not a true links, but the Loop plays more like a links than several of the links courses that I played in England.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Anyone know the geomorphology / landform history at Bandon? Perched dune systems are relatively uncommon. Is that what we had at Bandon (never been there)?

[JESII]

Are we using the definition something like..."sandy land along the water that's been reclaimed from the sea"?

[Tom_Doak]

Anyone know the geomorphology / landform history at Bandon? Perched dune systems are relatively uncommon. Is that what we had at Bandon (never been there)?

Ally:


I believe Bandon Dunes is a perched dune system.  The land is clifftop, but the sand has all been blown up there from the beach and from the action of the Coquille River to the south.  The sand dunes get up to 15-20m high on top of the cliff.  It is surely a links as much as Gullane or Ballybunion.

[JESII]

That's kind of what I'm wondering.


Are they links if they're 30 or 40 feet above the water?


If not, does it matter?

[Tom_Doak]

Last I checked, there were only 5 courses in North America that fit the proper definition: Pacific Dunes, Bandon Dunes, Old Macdonald, Cabot Links, Highlands Links in Massachusetts. I assume Sheep Ranch counts also, so that is 6. I am sure there are other courses that are close, but I remember reading these 5 (now 6) are the only ones that fit the proper definition.


With that being said, I've seen quite a few courses that seem to be very linksy. Kittansett for one, but perhaps is closer to a British heathland style. I am a little surprised Maidstone doesn't count, although I have not been there.

I have always thought Highlands (MA) had a pretty weak case -- it's on big, rolling land well above the sea.  I think it was included only so that they wouldn't be including Bandon alone.  Gearhart would have been a better choice if they just wanted an extra entry, but I suppose it had too many trees on it to be considered back then.


Maidstone has a few holes that would certainly be called links, but it's only about half the golf course.  [I don't know how many links holes you need, to be a links.  There are many with less than 18 -- Golspie, Cullen, Cruden Bay, etc.]  Prouts Neck in Maine has several links holes, too.


For my money, Ballyneal and Sand Hills and Dismal River should be classed as links courses.  The geomorphology is ancient, but it is all sandy land fit only for grazing animals, the playing surfaces are fescue, there aren't any trees, and you have the classic windy conditions normal to links courses.  Yeah, they're 1000 miles from the ocean now, but they play like the real thing.


P.S.  I agree that The Loop plays like a links but I wouldn't call it one; the soil is kind of gravelly.  Same for Erin Hills.

[Tom_Doak]

That's kind of what I'm wondering.

Are they links if they're 30 or 40 feet above the water?

If not, does it matter?

I don't think it matters.


Nobody ever questions whether Ballybunion or Gullane is a links, until there's a discussion about whether Bandon qualifies. 

[Ally Mcintosh]

Regards Bandon, if it’s a true perched dune system (it appears it is from what Tom says), it is dominated by cool season grasses and vegetation and it has formed over centuries through wind & wave, then it sounds like links land to me.

[Steve Lapper]

Would an Eastward Ho qualify as a links?

[Forrest Richardson]

I recall 'arguing' with Pepper about including our Links at Las Palomas in Sonora, MX. it’s built on 20-30 sand dunes formed by tidal and wind action — and it’s on the sea. No, George said without fescue it was not a links.

The very word defines a links:


links  A seaside golf course constructed on a natural sandy landscape that has been shaped by the wind and receding tides (from the Old English “hlincas”, meaning the plural of a ridge, a Scottish term to mean the undulating sandy ground near a shore ); also used more generally as a synonym for a “seaside golf course” or a golf course that is configured with nine holes extending outward and nine holes returning to the clubhouse; often incorrectly used to describe any golf course

[Colin Sheehan]

Robert Price broke down all the categories in his marvelous little book. He describes the "downland" variety as "raised beach." Southerndown and Pennard (even if Jim Finnegan called it a "links in the sky") would be two examples...and so would the courses at Bandon.


Are downland courses seaside and emulate all the elements of their true links brethren? Yes. Falling under that category doesn't demean the product in any way. 


Regarding Pebble Beach, my geologist friend told me it is "coastal terrace meadow." 

[Tom_Doak]

Robert Price broke down all the categories in his marvelous little book. He describes the "downland" variety as "raised beach." Southerndown and Pennard (even if Jim Finnegan called it a "links in the sky") would be two examples...and so would the courses at Bandon.

Are downland courses seaside and emulate all the elements of their true links brethren? Yes. Falling under that category doesn't demean the product in any way. 

My understanding was that downland was an entirely different class of chalky soils.  Southerndown, Royal Eastbourne, and Sheringham are all downland courses.  Pennard, not.  And Bandon is not chalky soil.

[Sean_A]

The same ole same ole. People trying to muscle in on free marketing by calling a non links a links. I think most of you know what is and what isn't a links.

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

The same ole same ole. People trying to muscle in on free marketing by calling a non links a links. I think most of you know what is and what isn't a links.

But, also, the same ole same ole . . . people trying to exclude competition and protect their special status by declaring every contender "not a true links" regardless of facts.


For every addition to the "true definition of links" there are outliers.  Humewood, in South Africa, plays absolutely like a links, but it's not fescue. 

[Tony_Muldoon]

If fescue is the mark of a links then surely that is also important in the rough too? 


Pacific Groves back 9 had acres of the hateful Ice Plant as the rough.  Unplayable rough alters the playing characteristics and although there are some very narsty areas on many Links courses, they offer more chance of recovery.  Also seen at Praia D'EL Rey, West Cliffs and other hot region courses - but not Troia or Granville the most Links like courses I've played outside GB&I.  (Chiberta only has half a dozen links holes). Not been to any of the "links" in Northern Europe.

This may change.  Last month I saw something very like Ice Plant on the rocks and washed up on the beach at Watergate Bay in Cornwall but saw none at local Trevose or Newquay.

[Tom_Doak]

If fescue is the mark of a links then surely that is also important in the rough too? 


Pacific Groves back 9 had acres of the hateful Ice Plant as the rough.  Unplayable rough alters the playing characteristics and although there are some very narsty areas on many Links courses, they offer more chance of recovery.  Also seen at Praia D'EL Rey, West Cliffs and other hot region courses - but not Troia or Granville the most Links like courses I've played outside GB&I.  (Chiberta only has half a dozen links holes). Not been to any of the "links" in Northern Europe.

This may change.  Last month I saw something very like Ice Plant on the rocks and washed up on the beach at Watergate Bay in Cornwall but saw none at local Trevose or Newquay.

"Hateful" ?  Personally I love ice plant, which was a huge part of the lore of the Monterey Peninsula 40-50 years ago, although they are trying to eradicate it now because it's not native.  It holds down open sand and requires almost no water.  It's difficult to play out of -- the only analogy I have for it in that regard is something you guys call heather.

[Sean_A]

The same ole same ole. People trying to muscle in on free marketing by calling a non links a links. I think most of you know what is and what isn't a links.

But, also, the same ole same ole . . . people trying to exclude competition and protect their special status by declaring every contender "not a true links" regardless of facts.


For every addition to the "true definition of links" there are outliers.  Humewood, in South Africa, plays absolutely like a links, but it's not fescue.

The status was defined many moons ago. It it is only in the past 30 years that folks want to somehow redefine what a links is. Not surprising.

Ciao

[Tony_Muldoon]

The thing about Heather is ...its a complete lottery how much of the back of the ball you can get to.  It tempts you to have a go...
I love it.






Ice Plant (in my admittedly limited experience) forms a thick carpet and absorbs the energy of your club no matter how well you can see the ball.  Yep hateful.




(Heather BTW is a marginal hazard on a "true links".)

[John Foley]

How can you not consider TOC-Kiawah a links? Is Seminole not included as the land had to be reclaimed?

[Peter Pallotta]

The same ole same ole. People trying to muscle in on free marketing by calling a non links a links. I think most of you know what is and what isn't a links.

But, also, the same ole same ole . . . people trying to exclude competition and protect their special status by declaring every contender "not a true links" regardless of facts.

For every addition to the "true definition of links" there are outliers.  Humewood, in South Africa, plays absolutely like a links, but it's not fescue.

The status was defined many moons ago. It it is only in the past 30 years that folks want to somehow redefine what a links is. Not surprising.
Ciao

What's surprising is that I'd always thought of you as a links and let links sort of fellow -- and certainly as someone who thinks definitions are overrated! I'd also have thought that a fan of good value like you might really appreciate someone having the experience of 'links golf' on the cheap, by not having to fly to Scotland. What's happening? Who are you hanging out with over there? You're getting all logical and snippy these days.
That's okay. Your tours make it worthwhile.

 

[Sean_A]

The thing about Heather is ...its a complete lottery how much of the back of the ball you can get to.  It tempts you to have a go...
I love it.






Ice Plant (in my admittedly limited experience) forms a thick carpet and absorbs the energy of your club no matter how well you can see the ball.  Yep hateful.




(Heather BTW is a marginal hazard on a "true links".)

Heather requires a lot of maintenance to keep it playable. Often times a hack out is all that can be achieved if the heather is too high. Its a marginal feature which is best when not featured on too many holes if fairways are as narrow as we see these days.

Ciao

[Sean_A]

The same ole same ole. People trying to muscle in on free marketing by calling a non links a links. I think most of you know what is and what isn't a links.

But, also, the same ole same ole . . . people trying to exclude competition and protect their special status by declaring every contender "not a true links" regardless of facts.

For every addition to the "true definition of links" there are outliers.  Humewood, in South Africa, plays absolutely like a links, but it's not fescue.

The status was defined many moons ago. It it is only in the past 30 years that folks want to somehow redefine what a links is. Not surprising.
Ciao

What's surprising is that I'd always thought of you as a links and let links sort of fellow -- and certainly as someone who thinks definitions are  overrated! I'd also have thought that a fan of good value like you might really appreciate someone having the experience of 'links golf' on the cheap, by not having to fly to Scotland. What's happening? Who are you hanging out with over there? You're getting all logical and snippy these days.
That's okay. Your tours make it worthwhile.

Pietro

I have no truck with links like or light. It doesn't matter to me how a course is defined so far as my enjoyment goes. I draw the line at false advertising. It's nothing more than a greedy attempt to cash in on what many believe to be the highest form of the game. Be honest. Don't try to change long established definitions. It's seems rather simple....

Ciao