News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Every Links Course Is At Least a 6”
« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2021, 01:03:14 AM »
Clearly no links course is a zero. After all, they are built where golf is meant to be played. So already if a nonlinks course is rated a zero, then if it were picked up and layed down on links land, it would at least be a one. Likewise if a nonlinks were just average, the same course in linksland would be at least a 4. After all, I would probably drive 200 miles to play it, whereas I probably wouldn't drive across town to play the nonlinks version.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Every Links Course Is At Least a 6”
« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2021, 01:11:09 AM »
I am asked constantly what my favorite golf course is and I always say I don't know but my favorite courses to play are links.  I think I can honestly say I have never played a links course I didn't enjoy which will qualify every one of them as at least a 6.
I don’t recall enjoyment in the Doak scale, and I am two lazy to get out the book and look it up. ;)
Some of us just enjoy playing golf. Which means we even enjoy playing on bad courses with lousy conditioning. I have even immensely enjoyed playing a Doak 0.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Every Links Course Is At Least a 6”
« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2021, 03:08:49 AM »
I am asked constantly what my favorite golf course is and I always say I don't know but my favorite courses to play are links.  I think I can honestly say I have never played a links course I didn't enjoy which will qualify every one of them as at least a 6.
I don’t recall enjoyment in the Doak scale, and I am two lazy to get out the book and look it up. ;)
Some of us just enjoy playing golf. Which means we even enjoy playing on bad courses with lousy conditioning. I have even immensely enjoyed playing a Doak 0.

You seemingly don't care where you play when on a trip. Why then would you buy the CG?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Every Links Course Is At Least a 6”
« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2021, 03:39:21 AM »
Garland,


What do you score Elie on The Fashionable Stretch Denim Scale?


As for no links being a zero, are you disagreeing with Tom’s appraisal of The Castle Course?


Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Every Links Course Is At Least a 6”
« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2021, 04:29:07 AM »
Garland,


What do you score Elie on The Fashionable Stretch Denim Scale?


As for no links being a zero, are you disagreeing with Tom’s appraisal of The Castle Course?


In what possible world is the Castle course a links?
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Every Links Course Is At Least a 6”
« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2021, 08:44:05 AM »
Garland,


What do you score Elie on The Fashionable Stretch Denim Scale?


As for no links being a zero, are you disagreeing with Tom’s appraisal of The Castle Course?

I bought the CG only to find it was pretty useless for me. I haven't bought any of his new volumes.

The Castle Course is not a links. Not even close.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Every Links Course Is At Least a 6”
« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2021, 11:14:22 AM »
Sean and others, on the original thread and here, make the parkland-linksland distinction. But I thought Ally was making the architecture-not architecture distinction: how you can have a great design for golf without design. It took the hiding the hand of man idea to a whole other level, ie isn't it best -- isn't the golf the best of all -- when there is nothing to hide?

(I think Ran knows this: that the hidden is the most sublime when it's not hiding anything. That's why, when he has to put Pine Valley at #1 -- a course with more 'architecture' than you can shake a stick at -- he justifies it by saying 'Pine Valley's only benchmark is itself'. It's a clever line.)


Peter,


I was making the architecture Vs no-architecture distinction but I’m not sure I was going to the same depth that you accredit me with!


Whilst my intent was not a links Vs parkland discussion, I did generally mean that I play more “golf” with a wider variety of shots, touch and feel at a course like Dunfanaghy (with very little created architecture) than I do at a course like Riviera (where the architecture - genius as it is - screams out at me).


The Top-100 courses are as much to do with architecture as they are to do with actually playing the game.


But to Tom’s original post, vive la difference!

Peter Pallotta

Re: “Every Links Course Is At Least a 6”
« Reply #32 on: November 26, 2021, 11:29:43 AM »
Thanks, Ally, for the clarification. I certainly get what you're saying. And I'm all for celebrating differences. But it's interesting: I imagine that if you or Tom were asked "What would you rather provide the golfers who play your courses -- better architecture or better golf?" you'd both choose the latter.
Maybe I'm just getting old. I have little interest in anything "screaming out at me", be it music, movies, a book, a loved one, a stranger, a political leader, or even golf course architecture. I don't need the 'show', only the substance.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Every Links Course Is At Least a 6”
« Reply #33 on: November 26, 2021, 11:34:04 AM »
Thanks, Ally, for the clarification. I certainly get what you're saying. And I'm all for celebrating differences. But it's interesting: I imagine that if you or Tom were asked "What would you rather provide the golfers who play your courses -- better architecture or better golf?" you'd both choose the latter.
Maybe I'm just getting old. I have little interest in anything "screaming out at me", be it music, movies, a book, a loved one, a stranger, a political leader, or even golf course architecture. I don't need the 'show', only the substance.


Yes that was indeed my point….

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Every Links Course Is At Least a 6”
« Reply #34 on: November 26, 2021, 12:34:36 PM »
Sean and others, on the original thread and here, make the parkland-linksland distinction. But I thought Ally was making the architecture-not architecture distinction: how you can have a great design for golf without design. It took the hiding the hand of man idea to a whole other level, ie isn't it best -- isn't the golf the best of all -- when there is nothing to hide?

(I think Ran knows this: that the hidden is the most sublime when it's not hiding anything. That's why, when he has to put Pine Valley at #1 -- a course with more 'architecture' than you can shake a stick at -- he justifies it by saying 'Pine Valley's only benchmark is itself'. It's a clever line.)


Peter,


I was making the architecture Vs no-architecture distinction but I’m not sure I was going to the same depth that you accredit me with!


Whilst my intent was not a links Vs parkland discussion, I did generally mean that I play more “golf” with a wider variety of shots, touch and feel at a course like Dunfanaghy (with very little created architecture) than I do at a course like Riviera (where the architecture - genius as it is - screams out at me).


The Top-100 courses are as much to do with architecture as they are to do with actually playing the game.


But to Tom’s original post, vive la difference!

This topic ties in with my comments on the recent World Top 100 thread.  Ballyneal is ranked #54 in the world.  Ahead of it are several outstanding American parkland courses, which all have beautiful, detailed architecture, and softer, greener surfaces than the sand-based courses on the list.  In general, these courses are less accommodating to "the ground game", and have more shots that suggest or demand a high, soft approach shot if possible.  Yes, I'm a member at Ballyneal, so my bias must be taken into consideration, but I'm confident my home course yields shots of greater intrigue than the typical American parkland design rated in the second 25 on this list.  On those parkland courses, I'm playing darts the majority of the time, hitting standard shots without considering trajectory.


At some level, it doesn't matter how great the architecture is, and how beautifully sculpted and placed those 150 bunkers are.  If you aren't playing on a firm, sandy surface where the wind blows, it's not as good.  The architecture can be worse but the course is still greater.  If you want to choose your World Top 100 based on architectural beauty and pedigree, so be it.  The native environment in which the game is played must be considered, otherwise the analysis is flawed.

Half the shots are played around the green, so the design of the green complexes plays a huge role in a course's greatness.  Once again, a firm surface and winds increase the complexity of the short game, even on courses with less undulation around the greens.

A good time to visit great American parkland courses is the late summer.  My experience playing a couple great courses in Chicago and San Francisco in September was sublime.  This is when you can see how great parkland golf can be.  The rough was dry, the greens were super fast and the game was exciting.  For much of the rest of the year, these courses become more ordinary.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Every Links Course Is At Least a 6”
« Reply #35 on: November 26, 2021, 12:46:56 PM »
There are a few UK links course that were originally ‘all-links’ 9-hole courses but which later added an additional 9-holes on nearby non-links terrain and some of these additional holes aren’t necessarily very nice.
Atb

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Every Links Course Is At Least a 6”
« Reply #36 on: November 26, 2021, 01:03:53 PM »
John,


Thanks for replying to my post. I agree with most of what you say.


One thing I will add is that a lot of people concentrate on the short game / ground game around the green when talking about links golf.


Links golf at its best is all about the approach shot. Sure, the variety of shot choices around the green complexes are one part. But it’s the choices that have to be made for full second shots on real, firm and well protected links courses that are the most enjoyable in the game, often accentuated by grade level green sites…. On good links courses, I have to invent my approach shots, shaping both ways, hitting knock-down shots, punch shots, low stingers and high floaters….


This is the essence of good links golf.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Every Links Course Is At Least a 6”
« Reply #37 on: November 26, 2021, 01:07:59 PM »
Ally,

Thanks for replying to my post.  I agree with everything you say.

 :D

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Every Links Course Is At Least a 6”
« Reply #38 on: November 26, 2021, 01:27:13 PM »
Having played about 80 Links courses, I can say that not everyone is a six in my book. But at least 40 of them are 7 and above.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Every Links Course Is At Least a 6”
« Reply #39 on: November 27, 2021, 06:19:42 AM »
I know of at least two posters who have a very high opinion of Golspie. I am one of them.


Ira
Is Golspie a links?  I mean, obviously some of the holes are, but the 9th is one of the best heathland holes in the UK.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Every Links Course Is At Least a 6”
« Reply #40 on: November 27, 2021, 07:43:05 AM »
Ally,
Links golf is also very much about the tee shot as the “gathering” bunkers, which play much larger than they appear, can have a huge impact on your approach shot  and whether you even have one before playing out backwards or sideways or simply getting your ball safely out.  If conditions are firm and fast and the wind is strong, so much can happen to your golf ball once it gets on the ground. You need to have control of your golf swing from tee to green. 


Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Every Links Course Is At Least a 6”
« Reply #41 on: November 27, 2021, 07:45:34 AM »
I know of at least two posters who have a very high opinion of Golspie. I am one of them.


Ira
Is Golspie a links?  I mean, obviously some of the holes are, but the 9th is one of the best heathland holes in the UK.


One of the reasons I like Golspie so much is the variety of landforms. And 9 is a terrific hole.


Ira

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Every Links Course Is At Least a 6”
« Reply #42 on: November 27, 2021, 08:56:11 AM »
Pre internet, one of the earlier guides I used when planning overseas trips was Tom's CG, along with the writings of James Finnegan, who wrote detailed notes on the courses and his experiences when travelling.


Tom's book was a great starting point, and I always found his commentary FAR more useful than the ratings he assigned the courses.
Someone who went just on Rating and avoided his "4"s and even his "3"s(as hit and runners are prone to do) would miss out on a lot of the charm of an area in a compact trip, and some pretty cool places.


On One of my favorite places to play(can't remember his rating-maybe a 3?)
“The sweet spot where high handicappers are not overwhelmed, but good players are punished if they try to overpower the course and miss wide. Carradale nine hole links is studded with outcroppings of rock, which threaten a wild bounce on many holes, most memorably at the difficult par-3 7th. No less than seven of the nine holes are between 200 and 300 yards in length.”
Tom Doak
Commentary On Shiskine
“This rugged links on the western side of Arran is a cult classic, and not just because it only has 12 holes. Five of the holes require blind approach shots with an unusual amount of quirk to them, and there is a succession of improvised signaling devices to let golfers know when it’s all clear to hit away. Nevertheless, the setting is spectacular playing along a narrow strip of links in the shadow of a rocky bluff, which you climb halfway up to play the short 3[size=0px]rd[/size]. It’s a hard course to rate because it’s certainly not everyone’s cup of tea, but if you are looking for an extreme example of how different golf can be, Shiskine is not to be missed.“
Shiskine Golf Club received a score of 4 out of 10 from Tom Doak"

I'll take Shiskine and Carradale in the evening over many many courses "rated" by him at 5 or higher.
The same would be true of his 31 Flavors-nearly all of which are some of my favorites.
Which is why going by a simple rating without his commentary and context is useful only to a box ticker and not to someone interested in some of(arguably) golf's greatest experiences which he and others(Finnegan etc.) were kind enough to share with us all.
As Tom has written, his original guide was for friends, many of which were good players, so he downplayed the ratings/recommendations(but not the commentary) on some of the smaller scale or more quirky courses.
The ironic thing is, in my experience, 80-90% of golfers PLAY at a smaller scale and can have their most enjoyment on the very courses that a pure numbers scale would have them avoiding.
It still baffles me why someone would pay 400 pounds to play a large scale course from the forwardish tees and skip a far more engaging course such as Prestwick St.Nicholas or Shiskine for about 1/10th money because they are "too short"

« Last Edit: November 27, 2021, 08:58:48 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Every Links Course Is At Least a 6”
« Reply #43 on: November 27, 2021, 09:17:25 AM »
And, the gems keep coming from Jeff.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Every Links Course Is At Least a 6”
« Reply #44 on: November 27, 2021, 11:47:09 AM »
It still baffles me why someone would pay 400 pounds to play a large scale course from the forwardish tees and skip a far more engaging course such as Prestwick St.Nicholas or Shiskine for about 1/10th money because they are "too short"
Me as well but in some ways it's kind of nice they do coz it leaves tee-times available for those who are prepared to search out and visit such allegedly less well thought of others! :)
atb

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Every Links Course Is At Least a 6”
« Reply #45 on: November 27, 2021, 12:12:59 PM »
I'll offer an opposing argument.

Inclement weather is a problem with true links courses, as well as sandy courses in the Great Plains east of the Rockies.  They generally offer harsh conditions in which to play golf, and most people don't really like to play golf if it's raining, or too cold and windy.

I could argue Riviera and LACC are greater golf courses than Ballyneal because the playing conditions are so consistently pleasant.  Thought I'd disrupt the love fest for links golf.   

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Every Links Course Is At Least a 6”
« Reply #46 on: November 27, 2021, 01:43:49 PM »
I'll offer an opposing argument.

Inclement weather is a problem with true links courses, as well as sandy courses in the Great Plains east of the Rockies.  They generally offer harsh conditions in which to play golf, and most people don't really like to play golf if it's raining, or too cold and windy.

I could argue Riviera and LACC are greater golf courses than Ballyneal because the playing conditions are so consistently pleasant.  Thought I'd disrupt the love fest for links golf.

You meant the weather is so consistently pleasant, didn't you?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Every Links Course Is At Least a 6”
« Reply #47 on: November 27, 2021, 01:51:35 PM »
I'll offer an opposing argument.

Inclement weather is a problem with true links courses, as well as sandy courses in the Great Plains east of the Rockies.  They generally offer harsh conditions in which to play golf, and most people don't really like to play golf if it's raining, or too cold and windy.

I could argue Riviera and LACC are greater golf courses than Ballyneal because the playing conditions are so consistently pleasant.  Thought I'd disrupt the love fest for links golf.
John hide your women and children. Arm yourself and stock up on food and water. They are coming after you now!   ;D
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Every Links Course Is At Least a 6”
« Reply #48 on: November 27, 2021, 02:34:20 PM »
Welcome to Pleasantville.  The temperature is currently 72 degrees.  The bunkers are groomed and the grass is short and green.

Yes, that's what I meant.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2021, 02:41:36 PM by John Kirk »

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Every Links Course Is At Least a 6”
« Reply #49 on: November 27, 2021, 02:42:36 PM »
Pre internet, one of the earlier guides I used when planning overseas trips was Tom's CG, along with the writings of James Finnegan, who wrote detailed notes on the courses and his experiences when travelling.

It still baffles me why someone would pay 400 pounds to play a large scale course from the forwardish tees and skip a far more engaging course such as Prestwick St.Nicholas or Shiskine for about 1/10th money because they are "too short"


Jeff, I still go back and read Rinnegan's three books on golf in GB&I. I agree about Prestwick ST N. There are others like it that offer wonderful golf at a fraction of the price. But most want to play the big names for their first time over there. I can't blame them. I did it and I expect you did as well.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi