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Kevin Stark

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How About Building One For The Old Guys?
« Reply #25 on: November 22, 2021, 09:04:57 PM »
Tom Doak's next course at Sand Valley, "Sedge Valley" (to be built after the Lido), will be slightly over 6000 yards and a par 67 or 68.   


I think it's a great concept and will be both enjoyable and challenging for all levels of golfers.   I fear that many retail golfers will see the yardage and par and dismiss it as "one for the old guys" as your thread title suggests.


Jimmy-I forgot about Tom’s project. Despite all the talk on the board today of par less than 72 I must admit that I was thinking of at least 70 so as to remain friendly to the shorter hitters. :)


I think strict par will be 68, but there are three long par-4 holes that will be three-shot holes for seniors playing the back tees, so you could also easily fudge it to par 70 or 71 if you wanted. 


We are thinking about not designating par at all, but I pointed out if we do that I will just have to constantly answer questions about what par is, here and elsewhere  :D


When my dad and I were playing Old Mac, Hogsback was playing dead into the winter wind. My dad lamented about how such a hole could possibly be a par 4. I told him that TD probably meant for the hole to be a par 5 in the winter and a par 4 in the summer. It's kind of how I think about most holes...I *want* them to play so dramatically different from one day (or one tee) to the next that the par changes, the line of attack changes, etc.

V_Halyard

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How About Building One For The Old Guys?
« Reply #26 on: November 22, 2021, 09:26:13 PM »
V_Halyard,
I was thinking more about how his endorsement for a course like that could influence others that would be similar around the country.  As you said on one of the other threads, we need more good courses like that in more places.  Maybe C&C will build one and then Hanse and then Kidd and then ...all with par less than 70 and much shorter yardages and acreage.
I’ll give you that. Perhaps he might show “how I have fun” with a variety of handicaps and distances.
"It's a tiny little ball that doesn't even move... how hard could it be?"  I will walk and carry 'til I can't... or look (really) stupid.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How About Building One For The Old Guys?
« Reply #27 on: November 22, 2021, 11:38:24 PM »
Three sets of tees at 6300, 6000 and 5700. Is there a market for such a course and if so who’s brave enough to build it?

Have you not heard of senior communities? Minimum age 55, no kids. Often come with a short golf course. ;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How About Building One For The Old Guys?
« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2021, 02:11:55 AM »
Ally,
Don't shoot the messenger.  However, I have become an even stronger believer in shorter tees to make the game more fun and less time consuming for shorter hitters.  We are building far more shorter tees than we used to  :D  and rating them for both men and women.  We are even getting rid of colors (no more red forward tees)!


Mark, it wasn’t you I was shooting, it was the USGA.


I’ve been suggesting for clubs to get rid of the colour red for years. Hardly any bit. Finally I think the WHS will make it happen.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2021, 02:17:08 AM by Ally Mcintosh »

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How About Building One For The Old Guys?
« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2021, 02:42:01 AM »
Ref shorter course - worth looking through this thread about RACV Healesville in Vic, Aussie -https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,36330.0.html
atb
« Last Edit: November 23, 2021, 07:05:47 AM by Thomas Dai »

jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How About Building One For The Old Guys?
« Reply #30 on: November 23, 2021, 09:41:00 AM »
Forget the senior tees. Give me senior cups.
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How About Building One For The Old Guys?
« Reply #31 on: November 23, 2021, 09:53:57 AM »
Three sets of tees at 6300, 6000 and 5700. Is there a market for such a course and if so who’s brave enough to build it?

Have you not heard of senior communities? Minimum age 55, no kids. Often come with a short golf course. ;)
Garland yeah good one.  My parents actually own a house in two different Del Webb communities (Ill. and AZ).

"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How About Building One For The Old Guys?
« Reply #32 on: November 23, 2021, 01:16:16 PM »
Forget the senior tees. Give me senior cups.

Completely agreed,

If the old adage is true that 1/2 of the strokes in golf are made within 50 yards of the green, a 7 inch wide cup would be terrific.  And would sure as hell speed up the game.

V_Halyard

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How About Building One For The Old Guys?
« Reply #33 on: November 23, 2021, 05:06:07 PM »
Three sets of tees at 6300, 6000 and 5700. Is there a market for such a course and if so who’s brave enough to build it?

Have you not heard of senior communities? Minimum age 55, no kids. Often come with a short golf course. ;)
Garland yeah good one.  My parents actually own a house in two different Del Webb communities (Ill. and AZ).



Ha ha.
I know and enjoy playing with your Dad so I will let the famous (Non-Golf) Villages medical statistic slide.
"It's a tiny little ball that doesn't even move... how hard could it be?"  I will walk and carry 'til I can't... or look (really) stupid.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How About Building One For The Old Guys?
« Reply #34 on: November 24, 2021, 04:04:52 PM »
Since only a few players play from the back tees in my residential 55+ golf community. I'll post tees and yardages along with slope/ratings :


!. Blue 6150y, 68.8/119- White, 5725y 67.0/110 and Red 4925y,63.2/101


2. Blue 6147y, 67.5/115-White,5453y, 64.8/102 and Red , 4688y not rated for men


3. Blue 6135y, 68.2/120- White, 5585y, 66./112 and Red ,4890y, not rated for men


Very senior friendly.  There are mixed tees for Black/Blue-Blue/White- and White/Red .
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Jay Mickle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How About Building One For The Old Guys?
« Reply #35 on: November 24, 2021, 04:54:24 PM »
As a super senior I don't much care about the length of the course as long as we are playing match play. Until Vaughn gets a short game count me in. How much is that bet ;D   
I am not convinced that building more tees is as necessary as creating a scorecard with a variety of mixed tees that the golfer can chose to fit his/her game. For me 400 yard par 4's are unreachable but a 525 yard par 5 is within the realm.
@MickleStix on Instagram
MickleStix.com

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How About Building One For The Old Guys?
« Reply #36 on: November 24, 2021, 08:15:15 PM »
1. Par is Rap spelled in reverse.


2. A course 'twixt Buffalo and Rochester plays a Big Cup Open every fall, as a scramble. Its popularity is enormous.


3. I think that you are all measuring ducks when you look only at length as determining what makes golf easier/more fun/more manageable/less painful for any subset. Length is the only thing that you can change, while preserving the rest of the course for all other golfers. From one group/player to the next, during a contiguous round, bunker depth/frequency/positioning cannot be changed. Speed of greens cannot be changed. Trees cannot be shifted, rivers may not be rerouted or piped.


4. As I age, I don't want the course to change. It needs to remain the same, and I must manage my way around it, in the best way possible. It is my opinion that old guys with less muscle can recapture the short-game wizardry of youth.


5. Go here (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Sand+Valley+Golf+Resort/@44.1540838,-89.8390089,7902m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m8!3m7!1s0x0:0x9a9f01f9bcec13d7!5m2!4m1!1i2!8m2!3d44.1717241!4d-89.8555098) and see the Posh Seasonal Lodging, Plus Dining & Bar before Google Maps/Earth updates. The locals say it was a great place to ride motorcycles and other vehicles. They are happy with the courses.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Tommy Naccarato

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How About Building One For The Old Guys?
« Reply #37 on: November 24, 2021, 08:41:05 PM »
Hey Tim!


The perfect course for this would be H. Chandler Egan’s Indian Canyon located in Spokane, Washington.


It’s filled with great Golden Age ideals from one of Golf’s more underrated Golf Architects.  Totally strategic in so many ways, yet not long at all!  Simple to play what’s right in front of you while planning how to put the ball as close to the hole with some ingenious putting surfaces!  There is never much of a walk from green to tee; no excessive length, but much tree-pruning that needs to occur there.  It would open vistas throughout the whole Spokane Valley as the course plays from up high-downward and back up again on both nines!

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How About Building One For The Old Guys?
« Reply #38 on: November 25, 2021, 12:12:47 AM »
Hey Tim!


The perfect course for this would be H. Chandler Egan’s Indian Canyon located in Spokane, Washington.


It’s filled with great Golden Age ideals from one of Golf’s more underrated Golf Architects.  Totally strategic in so many ways, yet not long at all!  Simple to play what’s right in front of you while planning how to put the ball as close to the hole with some ingenious putting surfaces!  There is never much of a walk from green to tee; no excessive length, but much tree-pruning that needs to occur there.  It would open vistas throughout the whole Spokane Valley as the course plays from up high-downward and back up again on both nines!

Slag told me that Dan Hixson spent his spare time studying Indian Canyon while he was building Wine Valley.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How About Building One For The Old Guys?
« Reply #39 on: November 25, 2021, 09:05:29 AM »
Hey Tim!


The perfect course for this would be H. Chandler Egan’s Indian Canyon located in Spokane, Washington.


It’s filled with great Golden Age ideals from one of Golf’s more underrated Golf Architects.  Totally strategic in so many ways, yet not long at all!  Simple to play what’s right in front of you while planning how to put the ball as close to the hole with some ingenious putting surfaces!  There is never much of a walk from green to tee; no excessive length, but much tree-pruning that needs to occur there.  It would open vistas throughout the whole Spokane Valley as the course plays from up high-downward and back up again on both nines!


Tommy-There are no Egan courses in the Northeast. Your description sounds terrific and I’m sure I would enjoy a trip around Indian Canyon.


Gib_Papazian

Re: How About Building One For The Old Guys?
« Reply #40 on: November 25, 2021, 12:18:26 PM »
Since we are trying to reprise tried and true classics, how about using Swinley Forest as a model?


That might be the most perfect golf course for the aged and infirm imaginable.


Or Sunningdale Old from 6,000 yards.


All those courses thought to be "outdated and too short" . . . . as I get older, this is like the story of the Three Bears and which one is "just right."


The idea of 18 holes as a sacrosanct benchmark always struck me as odd. If we can have Arena Football with truncated fields (or Canadian, 10 longer), why not? Bandon Preserve or the Monarch Dunes Challenge course are proof of concept.


Call me a heretic, but concept of par is a made-up hallucination and how many fabulous pieces of ground go unused because owners cannot get past the idiotic idea that courses must be 9 or 18 holes?


Extrapolate that elasticity to every aspect of golf architecture and I'll bet the game becomes more attractive in terms of both time and playability for everybody.


Saratoga CC (in Saratoga, CA) comes immediately to mind. Par 68, just a tick under 5,000 yards. Two loops of nine holes - with alternate tees. Sounds easy, right?


I've played it 50 times and I promise you Constance Havershire (who does not really exist, but is a representation of the women members out there) used to give me a game . . . . . she could play to her number no problem. Even with a healthy back and yipless flatstick, I've never broken 71 . . . .


Deep Cliff in Cupertino . . . these courses already exist everywhere, but are mostly invisible to the rank and file. I used to badger Whitten that we desperately needed a list identifying the best shorty tracks - except our panel at the time just refused to embrace the idea.


Children's courses are another fabulous way to perpetuate the game of course - Gil and Shac have two beauties on the drawing board for Olympic. They ought to be done right about the time my dotage moves from theoretical to hard reality.


       


 

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How About Building One For The Old Guys?
« Reply #41 on: November 25, 2021, 12:34:29 PM »
Hey Tim!

The perfect course for this would be H. Chandler Egan’s Indian Canyon located in Spokane, Washington.

It’s filled with great Golden Age ideals from one of Golf’s more underrated Golf Architects.  Totally strategic in so many ways, yet not long at all!  Simple to play what’s right in front of you while planning how to put the ball as close to the hole with some ingenious putting surfaces!  There is never much of a walk from green to tee; no excessive length, but much tree-pruning that needs to occur there.  It would open vistas throughout the whole Spokane Valley as the course plays from up high-downward and back up again on both nines!

Tommy,

Thank you for that, I could kiss you!  ;)

I've been singing ICs praises for years as I played it maybe 20 times when I lived in the area.  If any old-timey course could use a nice spruce up its this one. 

The greens are beyond fantastic (5 and 17 are special), and they only need to run at a 8.5-9 to really get your attention. Like #7 where you can have a 10 footer and be aiming 10 feet away at a diagonal and praying to 2 putt. The use of giant swales in the fairway on holes like 2, 12, and 14 are also pretty unique to anything I've ever seen.

And yes, other than some pruning, it could also use some underbrush clear out on holes like 8-10 and 16-18.

It only plays a hair over 6250 from the tips, but far from a pushover, even if top ams and pros eviscerate it in the annual Rosauers Open

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: How About Building One For The Old Guys?
« Reply #42 on: November 25, 2021, 01:25:31 PM »

Saratoga CC (in Saratoga, CA) comes immediately to mind. Par 68, just a tick under 5,000 yards. Two loops of nine holes - with alternate tees. Sounds easy, right?

I've played it 50 times and I promise you Constance Havershire (who does not really exist, but is a representation of the women members out there) used to give me a game . . . . . she could play to her number no problem. Even with a healthy back and yipless flatstick, I've never broken 71 . . . .
       


I have never heard you mention this place before.  Looks cool, but very tight.  Also, it's only nine holes - did it used to be more?


Swinley Forest IS the model for the next course at Sand Valley.  Maybe I will manage to get back there before we are done building it; it's been way too long.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How About Building One For The Old Guys?
« Reply #43 on: November 25, 2021, 02:43:47 PM »
What I’ve noticed is that in general as age increases so carry and trajectory of shot decline. So for older guys (and gals) forced carries and things that need to be hit over ain’t very user friendly. Same with longer shots that need to stop quickly. The hands seem to get twitchier as age increases as well so subtle shots and putting may not be what they once were especially on slicker putting surfaces.
Summary for older folks .. the ground game and/or ground game options are likely preferable.

Atb

Gib_Papazian

Re: How About Building One For The Old Guys?
« Reply #44 on: November 25, 2021, 03:45:53 PM »
TD,


My business partner across the desk was a member for 20-odd years. It is essentially a social and tennis club with a 9-holer. That is all the room there is, believe me. There are actually 10 holes - with an additional drop-shot for use during flooding or construction.


It is very tight and the routing disproportionality favors a strong draw off the tee . . . . kind of a short Fort Ord, with a string of "Combat Corner" holes - doubtless you're familiar. The General who helped design it was a bit like C.B.'s first effort, except he was a lefty with a sweeping slice.


The primary allure and challenge of Saratoga CC is the constant temptation to pull the big stick and try the hero shot. The reason most gunners get their asses handed to them the first few times is if you tug or block it with a wood in your hand, the penalty is double or worse.


The last partners tournament I played out there, we were paired with a true scratch who could just not keep his johnson out of the Chinese finger trap. You know what a "lay-up" chicken I am, so I'd punch 4-iron onto the short grass - leaving 60-125 yards - and still, Mr. Scratch was like watching a recovering alcoholic try and resist a double-shot of Hornitos.


Most of the time, bulletproof thinkers like Matt Cohn can shoot par or better by the 2nd go-round. But temptation is a fickle bitch and by the time we'd made the turn, Mr. Gunner was so mind-fucked from self-inflicted ass-rippings, he couldn't even hit the fairway with a mid-iron; one that comes to mind shot 87 at the Invitational, lost his entire wallet and never returned.


As for Swinley . . . I was beyond blessed to have played with Group Captain Ian Pierce, Secretary - and then had a beer with the great Peter Allis. One of the Royals was out in front of me, but I was so enthralled with the golf course I barely noticed.


My recollection is the par-4 #12 was in the Pantheon of brilliant simplicity. We played the back nine with a local member named Mr. Hill - and "Bismarck, an incredibly well-behaved Terrier, so named because he was brought home from Germany.


Dogs on the golf course are perfectly okay at Swinley - a club where there are no tournaments and no official handicaps.


Bismarck let out nary a peep, tottering along obediently, never chasing a rabbit, barely stopping to sniff the heather; when Mr. Hill putted out, doggy would walk silently ahead to the next tee, sit and wait for our group. Not his first time . . . .


That was until #16 tee, when a gas golf cart came rattling by - one of only two on the premises. Bismarck immediately shot after it, snarling, barking and biting at the tires as it went by. Mr. Hill, obviously quite displeased, hissed for him to stop and come back immediately, scolding Bismarck when he trotted back to the tee.


"What's up with your dog"? I enquired, noting he's barely peeped since we joined up.


"Oh that," said Mr. Hill, shooting a British frown at his pet and remembering I was an American, "Bismarck does not approve of buggies."


Captain Pierce - an excellent golfer I might add - winked, tapped a Sterling cigarette out of his pocket and whistled another one, right down the middle. 










 






 










 


   


 
« Last Edit: November 25, 2021, 03:48:47 PM by Gib Papazian »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: How About Building One For The Old Guys?
« Reply #45 on: November 25, 2021, 05:22:38 PM »
Bismarck sounds like my kind of dog.


I forget where I was last month - maybe Brora? - but some club over there posted on their club rules board that dogs were allowed on the course, EXCEPT during competitions.  I guess they didn't want them rattling change in their pockets while the opponent was playing.

Tommy Naccarato

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How About Building One For The Old Guys?
« Reply #46 on: November 26, 2021, 01:01:01 PM »
Hey Tim!

The perfect course for this would be H. Chandler Egan’s Indian Canyon located in Spokane, Washington.

It’s filled with great Golden Age ideals from one of Golf’s more underrated Golf Architects.  Totally strategic in so many ways, yet not long at all!  Simple to play what’s right in front of you while planning how to put the ball as close to the hole with some ingenious putting surfaces!  There is never much of a walk from green to tee; no excessive length, but much tree-pruning that needs to occur there.  It would open vistas throughout the whole Spokane Valley as the course plays from up high-downward and back up again on both nines!

Tommy,

Thank you for that, I could kiss you!  ;)

I've been singing ICs praises for years as I played it maybe 20 times when I lived in the area.  If any old-timey course could use a nice spruce up its this one. 

The greens are beyond fantastic (5 and 17 are special), and they only need to run at a 8.5-9 to really get your attention. Like #7 where you can have a 10 footer and be aiming 10 feet away at a diagonal and praying to 2 putt. The use of giant swales in the fairway on holes like 2, 12, and 14 are also pretty unique to anything I've ever seen.

And yes, other than some pruning, it could also use some underbrush clear out on holes like 8-10 and 16-18.

It only plays a hair over 6250 from the tips, but far from a pushover, even if top ams and pros eviscerate it in the annual Rosauers Open


From what I can tell, the back nine (when I last played it in 2009) was the only side that had been slightly altered, and that was the removal of some bunkers which was a real headscatcher!  Other then that, Some tree trimming, which when you say, “underbrush”, yes below the trees!  You don’t want to get rid off too much natural fauna there, maybe just as you say, clean it up a bit, and I’m talking trimming, not necessarily removal and that place is as true to Tim’s initial question as you could get!


 Those greens are genius!  The strategies are off the chart brilliant!

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How About Building One For The Old Guys?
« Reply #47 on: November 26, 2021, 01:14:42 PM »
Hey Tommy,

Here's the write up I did on it in 2007.  They still had the 9's flipped so 1-9 in this review is 10-18 and 10-18 is 1-9, but they have since flipped them back to the original setup. 

P.S. I also made some specific hole-by-hole recommendations I did a few years back, going to see if I can find that.

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,31538.0.html

Tommy Naccarato

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How About Building One For The Old Guys?
« Reply #48 on: November 27, 2021, 02:40:34 AM »
Kalen, I hate that the damn Photobucket watermark gets in the way!  Great shots though!

Stewart Abramson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How About Building One For The Old Guys?
« Reply #49 on: November 27, 2021, 07:37:04 AM »
Kalen, I hate that the damn Photobucket watermark gets in the way!  Great shots though!


Here's a link to a photo album of Indian Canyon without watermarks. The hole references are the current set up (nines reversed from Kalen's thread).


https://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/albums/72157695465826312/with/29291514128/  Indian Canyon