How About Building One For The Old Guys?

[Tim Martin]

Three sets of tees at 6300, 6000 and 5700. Is there a market for such a course and if so who’s brave enough to build it?

[Ally Mcintosh]

You’re talking about new courses only, I suspect… but there is certainly a market and these kind of courses certainly exist.


At Strandhill, we have 6,300 / 5,900 / 5,500.


There were four sets of tees but I persuaded them to reduce it to three. The 6,100 yard ones were superfluous.

[Tim Martin]

Ally-I was talking about new courses.

[Peter Pallotta]

At Strandhill, we have 6,300 / 5,900 / 5,500.

Perfect for the old, for the almost old, for the old-in-spirit, for the young, for beginning golfers and experienced ones both, for any women and men who prioritize enjoyment and exercise and fun over (or even on par with) their handicap indexes, for golfers 50 years ago and for those now and 50 years hence, and perfect too for all and everyone who can manage -- at least occasionally -- to lay to one side their primping and preening egos and instead assess themselves and their skills/abilities sanely and realistically.

That last subset is clearly the smallest!   

[Jimmy Muratt]

Tom Doak's next course at Sand Valley, "Sedge Valley" (to be built after the Lido), will be slightly over 6000 yards and a par 67 or 68.   


I think it's a great concept and will be both enjoyable and challenging for all levels of golfers.   I fear that many retail golfers will see the yardage and par and dismiss it as "one for the old guys" as your thread title suggests.   

[Mark_Fine]

There will be a study coming out soon from the USGA suggesting for a course of say 6800 yards long, there should be a set of tees at about 3600 yards in length to match the swing speeds of those  players.  And not all those players are old 

[Thomas Dai]

5,700-6,300 yds is usually still to long for most male players.
One of the best things about short yardage courses however, is that ego and macho players tend to dismiss them as ‘Micky mouse’ or ‘too short’ so they stay away and leave them well alone so there are usually more opportunities for such courses to be played by others who appreciate their merits.
Atb

[Ally Mcintosh]

There will be a study coming out soon from the USGA suggesting for a course of say 6800 yards long, there should be a set of tees at about 3600 yards in length to match the swing speeds of those  players.  All not all those players are old 

Always with the numbers…

[V_Halyard]

Ha! Define old! It took 4 years of grinding practice and a COVID driven bout of simulator sequestration to finally beat two cunning GCA sharks, Jay Mickle and Bill Steele.
I'm not gonna' lie.
Both of those victories were straight up delicious.

Priceless. Ask my West teammate George Freeman and his opponent Jason Thurman. They saw it. It was a shock to Steele. BOTH Bill and Jay were CERTAIN I was coming back to All Square (Tied) to 1 Down... from 4up, the same way I always had in the past.
Both remain dazed and confused to this day.

STEEL:    "What just happened? What is this sensation... is this... is this. L... Losing?"
MICKLE:  "This is horrible. How could you have suffered this for so long... again, and again, and again, and again,,,"

So do I really want to make game play specifically easier for them as they seem to get around excellently when there are properly placed tees. Would that normally be an executive course? Asking with no judgement.

... wait, I think I'm old now too. "Screw that, 60 is the new 30"

[V_Halyard]

You’re talking about new courses only, I suspect… but there is certainly a market and these kind of courses certainly exist.


At Strandhill, we have 6,300 / 5,900 / 5,500.


There were four sets of tees but I persuaded them to reduce it to three. The 6,100 yard ones were superfluous.

Damn I love Strandhill. But we've had this discussion.

[Tim Martin]

Tom Doak's next course at Sand Valley, "Sedge Valley" (to be built after the Lido), will be slightly over 6000 yards and a par 67 or 68.   


I think it's a great concept and will be both enjoyable and challenging for all levels of golfers.   I fear that many retail golfers will see the yardage and par and dismiss it as "one for the old guys" as your thread title suggests.

Jimmy-I forgot about Tom’s project. Despite all the talk on the board today of par less than 72 I must admit that I was thinking of at least 70 so as to remain friendly to the shorter hitters.

[Peter Pallotta]

STEEL:    "What just happened? What is this sensation... is this... is this. L... Losing?"
MICKEL:  "This is horrible. How could you have suffered this for so long... again, and again, and again, and again..."

Ha ha! Very funny image. I can see them as Spock and Kirk, after an alien spore has infected the Enterprise's life support system and made them old and weak and overly emotional:
Mickel: I...must...keep...GOING....can't lose...control!...Spock...SPOCK...my...MY SHIP!
Steel: Understood, Captain...JIM....But my people...VULCANS...haven't lost since...since the first Romulan CONQUEST!

[V_Halyard]

STEEL:    "What just happened? What is this sensation... is this... is this. L... Losing?"
MICKLE:  "This is horrible. How could you have suffered this for so long... again, and again, and again, and again..."

Ha ha! Very funny image. I can see them as Spock and Kirk, after an alien spore has infected the Enterprise's life support system and made them old and weak and overly emotional:
Mickle: I...must...keep...GOING....can't lose...control!...Spock...SPOCK...my...MY SHIP!
Steel: Understood, Captain...JIM....But my people...VULCANS...haven't lost since...since the first Romulan CONQUEST!

Exactly So imagine my glee. Mickle was dazed... 
JAY:  "What do I do now?  Do I go home?"
ME:  "No Jay, you just got here. We have more golf. Please get in the car"

[Peter Pallotta]

Please stop, that's too cruel now, Vaughn. You're making me feel sorry for Jay, and no farrier worth his salt wants anyone's pity. Plus, he owns the most stylish golf bag I've ever seen, and he sometimes plays in long sleeved white shirts, which I think is a terrific look. And also, gloating doesn't become you, Vaughn -- not my place to say as barely an acquaintance, but it's not you... not the *best* you.

[Mark_Fine]

Ally,
Don't shoot the messenger.  However, I have become an even stronger believer in shorter tees to make the game more fun and less time consuming for shorter hitters.  We are building far more shorter tees than we used to    and rating them for both men and women.  We are even getting rid of colors (no more red forward tees)!

[V_Halyard]

Please stop, that's too cruel now, Vaughn. You're making me feel sorry for Jay, and no farrier worth his salt wants anyone's pity. Plus, he owns the most stylish golf bag I've ever seen, and he sometimes plays in long sleeved white shirts, which I think is a terrific look. And also, gloating doesn't become you, Vaughn -- not my place to say as barely an acquaintance, but it's not you... not the *best* you.

I know but you know how Mickle is in your ear Ev-ery Screw up
"Not sure why you would have chosen that shot..."
I'll stop because he'll be on here soon enough reminding me how he came back to win later that week.   

As for "feeling sorry for Jay", I know you're blowing smoke.
I think it is philosophically impossible for me to feel sorry for somebody I want to be.  LOL

[Jeff_Brauer]

There will be a study coming out soon from the USGA suggesting for a course of say 6800 yards long, there should be a set of tees at about 3600 yards in length to match the swing speeds of those  players.  And not all those players are old 

Mark, I thought that data was already out there in spades, but could be wrong.  No doubt, if we can't have sexism in tee labels, we shouldn't have ageism, either.  It's all about swing speeds, as the ball doesn't know the age or gender of the club swinger.


I thought I read about a movement years ago to remove some of the back tees on real estate courses, since so few played at 7,200+ yards, to convert them to community parks, tot lots, or veggie gardens, or perhaps just habit.  Haven't ever heard much so maybe that died off.  It would probably be a good idea at some courses.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom Doak's next course at Sand Valley, "Sedge Valley" (to be built after the Lido), will be slightly over 6000 yards and a par 67 or 68.   


I think it's a great concept and will be both enjoyable and challenging for all levels of golfers.   I fear that many retail golfers will see the yardage and par and dismiss it as "one for the old guys" as your thread title suggests.

Jimmy-I forgot about Tom’s project. Despite all the talk on the board today of par less than 72 I must admit that I was thinking of at least 70 so as to remain friendly to the shorter hitters.

I think strict par will be 68, but there are three long par-4 holes that will be three-shot holes for seniors playing the back tees, so you could also easily fudge it to par 70 or 71 if you wanted. 


We are thinking about not designating par at all, but I pointed out if we do that I will just have to constantly answer questions about what par is, here and elsewhere 

[Jeff_Brauer]

TD,


Maybe just follow the thought leader Willie Nelson, who declared par on his course was anything he wanted it to be.

[Mark_Fine]

Jeff,
Forrest was just part of a USGA committee/meeting a week or two ago and told me about the article coming out so I don't know any more than that.  If he is checking in here, maybe he will comment. 

By the way, I love the idea of what Tom is planning to do.  Hope he brings his buddy Brooks Koepka out there to help promote it (so it is not viewed as just another executive course that is inferior to the other "championship" designs at Sand Valley).  I would be also nice if Brooks played it from the 6000 yard tips and didn't tear it up     Maybe that will change the "negative" stereotype of shorter less than par 70 courses.  Designs like this could alter the game for the better. 

[Brian Ross]

Tim,


I have a "new" course in Kentucky that will open next Spring called Park Mammoth that's 6,200/5,400/4,700 Par 70. While not designed specifically for the old guys, I do think it sets up well for that demographic. It has a lot of width on the tee shots but will reward the straight ball hitter who can find the best angle into what I think is a really great set of greens that will demand accuracy in order to score well. Hopefully you will get a chance to see it!

[Tim Martin]

Tim,


I have a "new" course in Kentucky that will open next Spring called Park Mammoth that's 6,200/5,400/4,700 Par 70. While not designed specifically for the old guys, I do think it sets up well for that demographic. It has a lot of width on the tee shots but will reward the straight ball hitter who can find the best angle into what I think is a really great set of greens that will demand accuracy in order to score well. Hopefully you will get a chance to see it!

Brian-Although the yardages are a little different it’s the concept that I was referring to. I sure hope I get a chance to see it and thanks for the reply!!!

[V_Halyard]

Jeff,
Forrest was just part of a USGA committee/meeting a week or two ago and told me about the article coming out so I don't know any more than that.  If he is checking in here, maybe he will comment. 

By the way, I love the idea of what Tom is planning to do.  Hope he brings his buddy Brooks Koepka out there to help promote it (so it is not viewed as just another executive course that is inferior to the other "championship" designs at Sand Valley).  I would be also nice if Brooks played it from the 6000 yard tips and didn't tear it up     Maybe that will change the "negative" stereotype of shorter less than par 70 courses.  Designs like this could alter the game for the better. 

I don't think Brooksie's opinion much matters as every course at SV is now booking into '23.

[Mark_Fine]

V_Halyard,
I was thinking more about how his endorsement for a course like that could influence others that would be similar around the country.  As you said on one of the other threads, we need more good courses like that in more places.  Maybe C&C will build one and then Hanse and then Kidd and then ...all with par less than 70 and much shorter yardages and acreage. 

[David Ober]

Tom Doak's next course at Sand Valley, "Sedge Valley" (to be built after the Lido), will be slightly over 6000 yards and a par 67 or 68.   


I think it's a great concept and will be both enjoyable and challenging for all levels of golfers.   I fear that many retail golfers will see the yardage and par and dismiss it as "one for the old guys" as your thread title suggests.

Jimmy-I forgot about Tom’s project. Despite all the talk on the board today of par less than 72 I must admit that I was thinking of at least 70 so as to remain friendly to the shorter hitters.

I think strict par will be 68, but there are three long par-4 holes that will be three-shot holes for seniors playing the back tees, so you could also easily fudge it to par 70 or 71 if you wanted. 


We are thinking about not designating par at all, but I pointed out if we do that I will just have to constantly answer questions about what par is, here and elsewhere 

Will the course have a rating and slope? :-)