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Joel_Stewart

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Re: Big $$$ renovation/restoration = big jump in rankings
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2021, 02:04:36 PM »

Am I the only one that finds these huge jumps after “restoration” a little perplexing.  I know the work is very good.  No questioning that. But the land, site, routing is unchanged.  Can someone help me understand?


Forget about the rankings and think about a club as a business. If you own a business you continually upgrade and improve your business.


Baltusrol is located in New Jersey and there's dozens if not hundreds of options for golf clubs.  If you're a person looking to join a club, do you want to join a club that was previously a US Open course that's lost its luster and the course is is mish mash of architecture?  Or do you want to join Plainfield, Somerset Hills, or Ridgewood which golf courses are updated and restored?


New members are the life blood of a country club.

V_Halyard

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Re: Big $$$ renovation/restoration = big jump in rankings
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2021, 02:19:44 PM »

Am I the only one that finds these huge jumps after “restoration” a little perplexing.  I know the work is very good.  No questioning that. But the land, site, routing is unchanged.  Can someone help me understand?


Forget about the rankings and think about a club as a business. If you own a business you continually upgrade and improve your business.


Baltusrol is located in New Jersey and there's dozens if not hundreds of options for golf clubs.  If you're a person looking to join a club, do you want to join a club that was previously a US Open course that's lost its luster and the course is is mish mash of architecture?  Or do you want to join Plainfield, Somerset Hills, or Ridgewood which golf courses are updated and restored?


New members are the life blood of a country club.
Business facts.
"It's a tiny little ball that doesn't even move... how hard could it be?"  I will walk and carry 'til I can't... or look (really) stupid.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Big $$$ renovation/restoration = big jump in rankings
« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2021, 03:26:34 PM »
From the business perspective, a restoration (or renovation) is what Jeff Brauer would call a marketing plan.  In most cases, the marketing is being aimed at members and potential members, but at the high end a lot of the marketing is aimed at panelists.  And of course Ran is an evangelist for restorations and has stacked the panel with people who agree, so these results are hardly unexpected.


This does not mean that the list will wind up being all Golden Age parkland courses.  There are many many unwritten quotas going on in panelists’ heads, which is part of the subjectivity of all this.  When St Patrick’s goes into the list and some people opine that it’s my best work, Pacific Dunes and Tara Iti fall a couple of notches, and so do the courses in Ireland which are just hanging onto the bottom of the list.


Remember a year or two ago when I expressed shock that Somerset Hills was rated so high on the list?  The ascent of Baltusrol will likely take it down a few pegs, even though that had nothing to do with the quality of the work done at Somerset Hills.  Which also, actually, calls into question whether the high ranking of Baltusrol is really all about the quality of the work done there, or whether a lot of this is just a power struggle behind the scenes.

David Jones

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Re: Big $$$ renovation/restoration = big jump in rankings
« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2021, 03:49:30 PM »
.

'What I'd like, especially with a US based magazine such as GM, is to do rankings similar to a President's Cup: US only, then a separate World list comprised of everything but US courses. Digest has begun doing this, though I'm not sure if they've given up on creating a composite world list.'




The Golf Digest international ranking is just bizarre.  I had high hopes they would change things under new leadership but no signs as yet. North Berwick is behind Valderrama, Cruden Bay behind Yas Links.


This Golf magazine ranking may have its faults but they are nothing compared to what's been going at Golf Digest's international lists over the years!
« Last Edit: November 18, 2021, 03:51:27 PM by David Jones »

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Big $$$ renovation/restoration = big jump in rankings
« Reply #29 on: November 18, 2021, 05:05:57 PM »
Hasn't there always tended to be some recency bias in rankings?  When there were spectacular new courses like Shadow Creek they often came in higher in the rankings before settling out to where "they should be" at least to most of us.


Maybe the same is true with the spectacular renovations and restorations of already well thought of courses?


A bit OT, but I always wondered why there is only a top 100 (yes, some mags also rank the next hundred).  Sort of like there is only one Super Bowl winner each year.  But, if we took the top 1%, the list would expand to 150 or so.  Just a thought.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Kalen Braley

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Re: Big $$$ renovation/restoration = big jump in rankings
« Reply #30 on: November 18, 2021, 05:47:17 PM »
Jeff,

There are nearly 40,000 golf courses in the world, so if were going with top 1% it'd be the top 400.  That could quell some of the belly aching from older courses being bounced from the 'top' list.

Andrew Harvie

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Re: Big $$$ renovation/restoration = big jump in rankings
« Reply #31 on: November 18, 2021, 05:56:44 PM »
Jeff,

There are nearly 40,000 golf courses in the world, so if were going with top 1% it'd be the top 400.  That could quell some of the belly aching from older courses being bounced from the 'top' list.


A top 1% list would be quite interesting

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Big $$$ renovation/restoration = big jump in rankings
« Reply #32 on: November 18, 2021, 06:02:24 PM »
If the list was extended to 400, would it be filled with more high-profile courses and renovations by the same architects (both old and new)? Or would it actually celebrate some unusual courses that don’t make the front pages?


I have to think that it might be the former.


Would any of Tom’s 30 odd courses NOT make the Top-400? (Incidentally, I’m not trying to imply that they shouldn’t given the quality of sites and design team; but a Top-400 filled with 300 courses by 10-12 architects is a bit narrow minded)
« Last Edit: November 18, 2021, 06:18:40 PM by Ally Mcintosh »

Michael Chadwick

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Re: Big $$$ renovation/restoration = big jump in rankings
« Reply #33 on: November 18, 2021, 06:17:35 PM »
A top 1% list would be quite interesting


Please no, Drew. I don't ever want to enter a pro shop that sells "Occupy Golf Magazine" or "We are the 99%" golf merchandise! 
Instagram: mj_c_golf

Jeff Schley

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Re: Big $$$ renovation/restoration = big jump in rankings
« Reply #34 on: November 19, 2021, 03:59:28 AM »
For golf course improvements in non links locations (drainage, irrigation, tree removal investments are minimized) it takes $$$$.

These restorations (or renovations) are mostly at private clubs and are seeking to appease their present membership and increase their standing, why the heck does any non-member give a crap? It isn't costing them a dime, let the clubs and members spend their money however they please. Whether they deserve a big jump in the rankings is debatable, but we can all agree they can only go up after putting a significant capital investment into their asset. The scoring differences (when shown) are very very small between the top 100, so even a small improvement will be noticed.

That said, why shouldn't a course get rewarded for becoming a better (or best) version of itself? The membership wants to show off their club and feel a sense of pride in it's place in the rankings, attracting events, and why not if you are a member to want to improve the club you love.

If all we care about are land, soil, routing then someone come up with a rating for that only and see if others agree. Has anyone tried to strip out the conditioning, ambience, aesthetics from the GD rankings and see what you get? Regardless, I may want that and you don't.


I like the latitude Golf.com gives their 109 raters and doesn't micromanage what they should value etc. Ran has selected them based on a viewpoint that they share. The courses that need updating should expect to become the best versions of themselves and manifest that improvement in their ascent in the rankings.

Edit: formatting always it seems
« Last Edit: November 19, 2021, 04:02:30 AM by Jeff Schley »
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Jaeger Kovich

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Re: Big $$$ renovation/restoration = big jump in rankings
« Reply #35 on: November 19, 2021, 06:34:44 AM »
Fair Question
Spent a fair amount of time at Oakland Hills on course and with historians for a documentary so I will add some perspective at least on this one.
Recognition of Oakland Hills goes far deeper than tree removal and bunkering. Scale was much better matched to the land features where the previous version drastically occluded the land effect on gameplay. This version actively undoes decades of active obfuscation. It was necessary to reclaim historical roots.

The result ultimately celebrates and utilizes the enormity of the natural scale. And yes they spent a ton of money with an eye to big events, but that is nothing new. Also, it is fair to say that much of the expense is hydro mechanical, underground, out of sight, focused on managing extreme tournament conditions and has no bearing on the ratings.  Re their investment in their course, they’ve been spending that way since Ross was alive and accellerated after he passed away .



Scale is not what makes Oakland Hills great... It's the best/second best set of greens that Ross built that makes it greater than his other works. And that generally is what justifies its high ranking to me... Not sure I'd say that Balty Lower's greens are in Tilly's top 5, so thats the one big jump that has me scratching my head. Maybe its that new car smell that the raters like so much! 8)


Absolutely great greens, but  playing target golf through trees and ponds had diminished the greatness of the course in its entirety. Great greens alone do not made for a great course.
The reestablishment of scale, reestablished the greatness of Ross’ intent. I’m taking the entire course into consideration, not just greens.


The course was very high on the list for decades with all them trees and ponds and Jones rebunkering. There are many great Ross routings and on very good properties, the guy did 400 of them, but they are not on the list with or without trees. While fixing that stuff obviously made it better and more authentic, it is the greens that separate it and put it this high on the list.

Andrew Harvie

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Re: Big $$$ renovation/restoration = big jump in rankings
« Reply #36 on: November 19, 2021, 08:44:18 AM »
I imagine it would be like finding a painting in the attic of a house you bought and then cleaning it up. You can tell it's worth investing into and it is a nice painting, but until you restore the painting, you don't really know how good it can actually be.

Dan_Callahan

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Re: Big $$$ renovation/restoration = big jump in rankings
« Reply #37 on: November 19, 2021, 09:32:09 AM »
I've played a decent number of the top 100, and call me a cynic but I think conditioning, pedigree, and exclusivity has a far great impact than folks would care to admit. There is a huge number of US courses on the list that I love and would love to play every day, but compared to some of the links courses in Ireland and Scotland, they just don't stack up. Admittedly, my subjective bias/preference probably skews far in the opposite direction. I don't think I could put together a top 100 list where the top 10 weren't links courses.

JESII

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Re: Big $$$ renovation/restoration = big jump in rankings
« Reply #38 on: November 19, 2021, 10:16:50 AM »
And I'm sure there's a ranking panel just for you Dan...


This is all subjective and these threads that act as though any list is something else have had me scratching my head for 17 years on here.

Dan_Callahan

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Tim Martin

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Re: Big $$$ renovation/restoration = big jump in rankings
« Reply #40 on: November 19, 2021, 11:59:12 AM »
And I'm sure there's a ranking panel just for you Dan...






There is: https://www.todaysgolfer.co.uk/courses/best/links-golf-courses-in-great-britain-and-ireland/


Dan-Based on your preference for links courses I would be interested in what your top 10 would be. Thanks.

Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Big $$$ renovation/restoration = big jump in rankings
« Reply #41 on: November 19, 2021, 12:22:39 PM »
I appreciate all those who weighed in and the fact that we mostly stayed on point throughout the discussion. I'm in the business of working on golf courses, so I should be all in favor of work stopping a course from sliding down the rankings and inserting it back into the top 100 in the world. Thats a win for all involved, but in this game of musical chairs someone loses a seat...maybe that spurs more work too. 


It still has a bit of shiny new car feel to me, flavor of the month. The comment that eventually the course will end up where it rightfully belongs could also mean it rightfully belonged outside the top 100 where it was until recent upgrades. I don't want to believe new grass, clean white sand, and fresh views is what inspires raters as in the end we are supposed to be looking at architecture, but since we play golf, playability never stops being a factor and that brings conditioning into the consideration.


These are old classics that have been on the lists for years, and maybe as Tom Doak alluded, the work brought more raters back to realize how great these courses have been all along. If that's the case, then we really have been looking for that new car smell. 


Its all good though, as the courses are truly better after the work, and the work getting done keeps getting better and better. Kinda makes me yearn for some less than perfect work just so some edginess, hard pan, and scruff can be accepted as part of our game too. With so many qualified craftsmen and such great equipment used to build and maintain our courses, its all getting very polished and no matter how many fingers get pointed at Golf Digest's culture of rankings, it feels like we are all following the lead of rewarding perfection.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2021, 12:24:39 PM by Don Mahaffey »

Steve Lapper

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Re: Big $$$ renovation/restoration = big jump in rankings
« Reply #42 on: November 19, 2021, 12:29:22 PM »
From the business perspective, a restoration (or renovation) is what Jeff Brauer would call a marketing plan.  In most cases, the marketing is being aimed at members and potential members, but at the high end a lot of the marketing is aimed at panelists.  And of course Ran is an evangelist for restorations and has stacked the panel with people who agree, so these results are hardly unexpected.


This does not mean that the list will wind up being all Golden Age parkland courses.  There are many many unwritten quotas going on in panelists’ heads, which is part of the subjectivity of all this.  When St Patrick’s goes into the list and some people opine that it’s my best work, Pacific Dunes and Tara Iti fall a couple of notches, and so do the courses in Ireland which are just hanging onto the bottom of the list.


Remember a year or two ago when I expressed shock that Somerset Hills was rated so high on the list?  The ascent of Baltusrol will likely take it down a few pegs, even though that had nothing to do with the quality of the work done at Somerset Hills.  Which also, actually, calls into question whether the high ranking of Baltusrol is really all about the quality of the work done there, or whether a lot of this is just a power struggle behind the scenes.


 Tom,


 
  While I agree with a few points you make in you previous post, it's difficult to believe the premise of several others.


   No question that restorations/renovations are in effect, "marketing plans." Every club has to keep their facilities contemporarily attractive to help recruit new members and retain current ones. Some do it by renovating clubhouses, pools or other parts of facilities. Unanimously, historically significant courses do it for those aforementioned reasons along with the perception that their venues remain important, and frequently to protect and market their competitive availability. I hardly think it is done solely to "market to panelists." I know for certain that was the case at Winged Foot and LACC, and believe it's little different at Oakland Hills or Baltusrol.


  It is borderline laughable that you think Ran "stacked the panel" with people who simply endorse his "evangelical for restorations" thoughts. Amongst the more recent panelists I've met or talked to haven't at all exhibited that kind of bias nor any level of excitement other than to see fresh takes on courses they haven't seen in a while. Furthermore, I've only known Ran to encourage us to get out to see new places wherever they are. To the best of my knowledge, he's never put restorations/renovations above seeing something new.

  Nor have I ever noticed any "many, many unwritten quotas" amongst the panelists I know. I'm sure you are partially correct that some portion of 107 individuals do have something approximating such a thing, but it's most likely far less present than you suggest. You might even give yourself a little credit, understanding that many of your published tomes have enlightened and effectively de-biased so many who critically assess and vote on a course.


  Lastly, having both Somerset Hills and Baltusrol in my backyard (and knowing senior governance at both), it's conspiratorial poppycock to believe there is even a vestige of any "power struggle behind the scenes" related to voting for, playing, joining, or simply appreciating either place. The "quality of work" at both places was absolutely necessary and has proved exceptional for both courses. The only possible scenario for any "power struggle" might rest with inherent internal business conflicts that have zero to do with either club.

PS..My vote on Baltusrol was certainly considerably higher than in past years, although I'm not at all sure it  would fall inside the top 30 US (which a 57th on the World list would insinuate). It is finally more interesting with more strategic optionality and firm and fun. Kudos to the Gil, Greg and the club.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2021, 06:42:52 PM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Rory Connaughton

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Re: Big $$$ renovation/restoration = big jump in rankings
« Reply #43 on: November 19, 2021, 12:46:48 PM »
A slight aside to this is what are the clubs/courses who have undertaken restorations etc planning to do so that they don't need to undertake another expensive/course closing restoration in a few years/decades time?
atb


Excellent question. Insofar as the ratings game is concerned, the hare seems to be rewarded. There are any number of clubs that failed to maintain what their ODG left and, in many instances, failed to make essential investments in course infrastructure only to find themselves elevated beyond rationality once they took the steps necessary to stave off the existential threat that eventually comes with generations of neglect.


Those clubs that have been good architectural stewards and have made the necessary investment in infrastructure (irrigation, drainage, grasses, tree management etc) on a consistent basis tend not to garner the same attention.


It shouldn't matter, of course, but convincing members of big spends when there is the promise of acclaim at the other end of a project is one thing. Convincing them to spend healthy amounts year after year (especially for the stuff you can't see) in the name of stewardship is another.


(obviously, this analysis does not apply to the objectively great but I think it does apply to the really good to nearly great that populate the bottom half of most lists)
« Last Edit: November 19, 2021, 12:48:27 PM by Rory Connaughton »

Dan_Callahan

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Re: Big $$$ renovation/restoration = big jump in rankings
« Reply #44 on: November 19, 2021, 02:24:34 PM »

Dan-Based on your preference for links courses I would be interested in what your top 10 would be. Thanks.


I haven't played nearly enough links courses to be able to put together a defendable top 10 list. I mean ... I look at that ranking and there are so many great links courses I have yet to play. Of the ones I have played, Dornoch is my #1, with Portrush #2 and North Berwick #3. But those are the obvious (although I know some on here think Dornoch is overrated). What makes me think my personal top 10 would be all links is that I would choose a number of the not-quite-elite layouts, like Carne or Enniscrone or Sligo, over top 100 courses like the Ocean Course and the Country Club (and I love both of those courses).


As I said before, it is obviously a very subjective thing. But links golf ... the turf ... the openness ... the dunes ... the wind ... the creativity that is asked for ... I just think is better and way more fun than what is presented at parkland courses in the US. I know for others, the manicured aesthetic of US courses, with not a blade of grass out of place, is what gets their blood flowing. Which is fine. I just think that rankings like what Golf Magazine put out should be more candid about the impact conditioning, pedigree and exclusivity have on the results.


One man's opinion

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Big $$$ renovation/restoration = big jump in rankings
« Reply #45 on: November 19, 2021, 03:20:02 PM »
Funny you should say that, Dan. I think Carne Wild Atlantic Dunes (once a couple of logistics issues have been sorted) should absolutely be in the discussion for the Top-100 list. But raters weren’t pushed there; whereas they were towards St. Patrick’s (understandable) and Narin & Portnoo (less so).


Conditioning, exclusivity, pedigree (read architect) have a huge impact.

Brian Finn

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Re: Big $$$ renovation/restoration = big jump in rankings
« Reply #46 on: November 19, 2021, 03:51:02 PM »
What makes me think my personal top 10 would be all links is that I would choose a number of the not-quite-elite layouts...over top 100 courses...

As I said before, it is obviously a very subjective thing. But links golf ... the turf ... the openness ... the dunes ... the wind ... the creativity that is asked for ... I just think is better and way more fun than what is presented at parkland courses in the US.

One man's opinion
I have a very similar viewpoint, Dan.  the more links courses I play, the more I think it is a superior golf experience.  Links courses take up a disproportionate piece of my personal top list, and among courses I most want to play for the first time, 85%-90% are links. 

I love looking at all of the lists that are published, but the top 100 links lists (from GolfWorld and top100golfcourses.com), as well as the full listing of ~240 true links in GB&I are where I look most often for planning trips and day dreaming.
New for '24: Monifieth x2, Montrose x2, Panmure, Carnoustie x3, Scotscraig, Kingsbarns, Elie, Dumbarnie, Lundin, Belvedere, The Loop x2, Forest Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs x2, Kapalua Plantation, Windsong Farm, Minikahda...

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Big $$$ renovation/restoration = big jump in rankings
« Reply #47 on: November 19, 2021, 04:12:06 PM »
Funny you should say that, Dan. I think Carne Wild Atlantic Dunes (once a couple of logistics issues have been sorted) should absolutely be in the discussion for the Top-100 list. But raters weren’t pushed there; whereas they were towards St. Patrick’s (understandable) and Narin & Portnoo (less so).

Conditioning, exclusivity, pedigree (read architect) have a huge impact.




"Pushed" there, or drawn there? 


I don't know if the magazines "push" panelists toward certain courses or not.  But there is certainly some interest in what's my latest project, based on past results.  20+ years ago I was on the wrong side of that equation, so I understand your frustration; but to overcome it they would really have to "push" someone toward your place.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Big $$$ renovation/restoration = big jump in rankings
« Reply #48 on: November 19, 2021, 04:19:46 PM »
Funny you should say that, Dan. I think Carne Wild Atlantic Dunes (once a couple of logistics issues have been sorted) should absolutely be in the discussion for the Top-100 list. But raters weren’t pushed there; whereas they were towards St. Patrick’s (understandable) and Narin & Portnoo (less so).

Conditioning, exclusivity, pedigree (read architect) have a huge impact.




"Pushed" there, or drawn there? 


I don't know if the magazines "push" panelists toward certain courses or not.  But there is certainly some interest in what's my latest project, based on past results.  20+ years ago I was on the wrong side of that equation, so I understand your frustration; but to overcome it they would really have to "push" someone toward your place.


Ah no, I’m not frustrated about Carne (it’s not there yet)… I just know the way these things work…. St. Patrick’s was a no-brainer. A new course where everything about it deserves its credit - for a variety of reasons, there’s no comparison!…. And Carne has a lot more elements that don’t go in its favour (no budget or team to allow me to get some of the detail smoothed out, a couple of logistical issues that need worked, tight dune pockets and a tough, hilly walk). But the place is 18 amazingly unique holes that are *almost* there….


But really, people are more interested to see Gil’s renovation of Narin & Portnoo…. It’s the architect that sells….


But these things are earned, don’t get me wrong! That said, a links setting is different to renovating a classic US parkland. Needs a slightly lighter touch.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2021, 05:30:47 PM by Ally Mcintosh »

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Big $$$ renovation/restoration = big jump in rankings
« Reply #49 on: November 19, 2021, 04:40:13 PM »
I know Ron Whitten tried to actively get raters to off the main path yet still worthy candidates for Best New, Best in State, Top 100 whatever.  I would say it should be part of the panel head's job in a way.  I think most of the high profile projects by high profile designers get more than enough interest from raters, but then, I don't know all the raters.


I understand it has to be done without the wink and nod if asked where it should be ranked, of course. ;)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

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