Tilly's "Style" Circa 1920

[Brian Marion]

As Mike Young and I continue our path toward resto/reno, a thought that's entered my mind is "what was Tilly's style during certain periods?"


Can it be defined?
BY Time period?
By region?
By topography?
By commission?
By other?


The main reason I ask this group is that while we have images and even movies of certain holes at certain periods, not every hole can be renovated due to lack of documentation and assets. We do not have the original plans (yet, but hopeful). So, a restoration would be more in order in some places.


Knowing this, did Tilly have habits or nuances that may not be captured in his drawings and writings like The Course Beautiful? Was there a distinct difference in his earliest work, ex 1918-1925 work, 25-30, later? Are there clues to be looked for that I can point out to the esteemed Mr. Young when he's in town next?


For reference, our course was built in 1920.

[Bruce Katona]

Philly Cricket, Tulsa, Lakewood, Somerset Hills & Upper Montclair all fit the timeframe......condtions of each site are different.


Best of Luck.

[Tom_Doak]

As Mike Young and I continue our path toward resto/reno, a thought that's entered my mind is "what was Tilly's style during certain periods?"


Can it be defined?
BY Time period?
By region?
By topography?
By commission?
By other?


The main reason I ask this group is that while we have images and even movies of certain holes at certain periods, not every hole can be renovated due to lack of documentation and assets. We do not have the original plans (yet, but hopeful). So, a restoration would be more in order in some places.


Knowing this, did Tilly have habits or nuances that may not be captured in his drawings and writings like The Course Beautiful? Was there a distinct difference in his earliest work, ex 1918-1925 work, 25-30, later? Are there clues to be looked for that I can point out to the esteemed Mr. Young when he's in town next?


For reference, our course was built in 1920.

I don’t think this is the right approach.


Find out what Tillinghast actually built and do that.  Don’t try to transpose some other course onto yours in a parody of the “Tillinghast style”.

[Mike_Young]

As Mike Young and I continue our path toward resto/reno, a thought that's entered my mind is "what was Tilly's style during certain periods?"


Can it be defined?
BY Time period?
By region?
By topography?
By commission?
By other?


The main reason I ask this group is that while we have images and even movies of certain holes at certain periods, not every hole can be renovated due to lack of documentation and assets. We do not have the original plans (yet, but hopeful). So, a restoration would be more in order in some places.


Knowing this, did Tilly have habits or nuances that may not be captured in his drawings and writings like The Course Beautiful? Was there a distinct difference in his earliest work, ex 1918-1925 work, 25-30, later? Are there clues to be looked for that I can point out to the esteemed Mr. Young when he's in town next?


For reference, our course was built in 1920.

I don’t think this is the right approach.


Find out what Tillinghast actually built and do that.  Don’t try to transpose some other course onto yours in a parody of the “Tillinghast style”.

TD,
I think we agree on that...Brian is just still researching what he can find out there.  Tilly had built another course near there and the actual builder came down to do JCCC....some really good features out there and then shallow limestone may have changed a few things along with proverbial tree problems...

[Mark_Fine]

Good to see Mike Young embracing the work of the dead guys and restoration!  And I thought he thought it was all marketing BS 

[MCirba]

Of all the ODG's, it is much more difficult to shoehorn Tillinghast into a particular style.  I suspect if you asked him he'd say, "Style??...pshaw!  I'm an artist dahling.  I color outside the lines."

[Tim Martin]

Of all the ODG's, it is much more difficult to shoehorn Tillinghast into a particular style.  I suspect if you asked him he'd say, "Style??...pshaw!  I'm an artist dahling.  I color outside the lines."

Mike-Not to threadjack but I’m wondering if the same can be said about Ross?

[Mark_Fine]

Tillinghast, Ross, Flynn, Thomas, Mackenzie, … many of these architects wrote/documented a lot about their courses, design concepts and ideas.  Obviously this helps a lot in trying to decipher design intent. 

[Mike_Young]

Good to see Mike Young embracing the work of the dead guys and restoration!  And I thought he thought it was all marketing BS 

Mark,
To be clear…I only embrace mike young.  If I was into marketing all the ODG HYPE stuff then you would have found me on here talking about the next great “Tilly” redo when we first began working on it.   AND BTW you thought correctly. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Brian,


It doesn't help that Tillie seemed to have the widest variety of styles.  Say what you want, until someone proves me wrong, I think it was a factor of some of his further away courses getting built by different builders.  After he did SFGC with it's fabulous bunkers, there are courses after that with pretty plain ovals.  Again, I doubt he saw all his designs.  To me, since the same builder had one nearby and came down to build yours, using what's left of that and photos may be your best guide as to what was at your course.


Just MHO of course.

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
Understood. So how are you promoting the work you are doing on this project?  You said you are not talking about it as a great Tillie redo.  What is it?

[Mike_Young]

Mike,
Understood. So how are you promoting the work you are doing on this project?  You said you are not talking about it as a great Tillie redo.  What is it?

I’m not promoting.  I’m just fixing a golf course.  Up to the course if they wish to promote.   

[Brian Marion]

I think it would help to give some background and history.


The course (JCCC) was built at same time as Kingsport CC, 15 miles away. Kingsport was planned to be 18 holes, of which only 9 were built. It was bulldozed in the early '50's for affordable housing. I have only found two photographs of Kingsport. 1: an aerial showing one hole, 2: a photo of tree clearing on the site with no detailed background.


The family that tended the farm where the original KCC 9 holes were built, also ran the golf operations. Their family name was Webster and one of the boys grew up learning the game and became JCCC's long time head pro/HGK, Theo Webster. His name is legendary in east TN golf.


JCCC does not have the original Tilly plans though I suspect from research that Theo did and his surviving family still might today. But when asked, they say no even though they did have a large aerial from 1973 that Mike and I are using for a base "timestamp." There are a lot of closets and basement material that has not been gone through in their private collection.


Using older, 1930's, 40's aerials is only partially helpful as the course features weren't fully built out from the beginning. Jeff B, I agree with you as the local labor force was probably left to work without terrific guidance, not to mention WWI, a Great Depression and WWII to come. (I have other theories regarding this at JCCC and other courses but that's for another thread) Coinciding with Webster's arrival, many bunkers were built over several decades as evidenced by the aerials from that time, I suspect by Webster using the original plans. He definitely built today's hole 1, 2, 3 using Tilly plans as they are routed and look like the original 9 but built 23 years later and after Tilly's death.


What we are not desiring to do is build a "Tilly Tour 18" replica track. But rather, better understand, through his writings, drawings, and seeing other courses, his style. But it is difficult to plan and see the courses from this time period of Tilly's. That's why I'm asking this group, all have a ton of knowledge, especially with NE Tilly's. My experience is limited, at this point, to Coronado, Bethpage, The Cricket Club(pre reno) and Rock Hill CC(pre reno) where I am a former member.
 
All this so I can learn and educate myself even more, do the place justice and have even better, constructive conversations with Mike as we partner on this endeavor. I am surely the dreamer of this partnership and Mike is the practical one. It works great!

As for promoting the course as a Tilly "restoration", I'll shy away from that conversation at this time. If we had the plans, yes, more than likely we could but at this point I am Dr. Watson to Mike's Sherlock Holmes. It's painstaking evidence building and gathering of 100 years of scattered info, educated guesses and speculation. Why, because we want it done right for the members, for the Club, and for ourselves.

[Mark_Fine]

Brian,
If you are just fixing up a golf course as Mike says, why waste all this time worrying about what some dead guy did or might have done years and years ago.  Just get on with it, embrace Mike Young, and fix it.   

[Brian Marion]

Brian,
If you are just fixing up a golf course as Mike says, why waste all this time worrying about what some dead guy did or might have done years and years ago.  Just get on with it, embrace Mike Young, and fix it.   

Oh, we don't embrace. That would be awkward! LOL

[JMEvensky]

Brian M, from the far western part of the Volunteer State, good luck.

[Brian Marion]

Brian M, from the far western part of the Volunteer State, good luck.

Many thanks!

[MCirba]

Brian,

I've tried to do a little digging to help and it appears that the club had a nine hole course of unknown design origins but by June 1919 was advertising for "100 to 130 acres" to purchase, presumably for their planned 18 hole course.

So, whatever you have it's likely all 18 were designed at the same time and by the same person, which differs from what I interpreted here in previous posts.   I'll see what more I can find.

**Addendum** - The timing appears to coincide.   In November 1919 Tillinghast came back to review his work at nearby Kingsport which was nearing completion and according to the "Kingsport Times", "Mr. Tillinghast, who has been spending a few days after laying out the new course for Johnson City, will return to New York tonight".   


Incidentally, architect Maurice McCarthy (i.e. Hershey (PA) CC, others) was the builder for Kingsport to Tillinghast's design.   It is recorded that he stayed in Kingsport through the construction and grow-in.   Has me wondering if he may have also built JCCC?

[Mark_Fine]

Brian,
I mean no disrespect and I actually applaud what you are doing/trying to do but I have to laugh as Mike Young has given many of us so much crap over the years for trying to do the same thing.  Read his rely #8 


For what they are worth, here a few quick suggestions, for one, I agree with Tom Doak about finding out what Tillie did on that golf course and do that.  Second, just because you have (or eventually find) the original plans does not mean you are all set to go to do a “restoration”.  It helps to have them but a very early aerial along with actual course photos are just as if not more valuable as that shows you what was actually built (or at least was on the ground at the date of the photo).  You want to find out what Tillie built, not just what he was thinking of building.  Third, what is the main goal of the club?  Do they even care about Tillinghast or do they just want a better golf course?  Part of your job is to help educate them to what they had and how it evolved and go from there.  You need to figure out what is it that they want to promote when all is said and done.  Best to be on the same page with them.  Good luck!

[Brian Marion]

Brian,

I've tried to do a little digging to help and it appears that the club had a nine hole course of unknown design origins but by June 1919 was advertising for "100 to 130 acres" to purchase, presumably for their planned 18 hole course.

So, whatever you have it's likely all 18 were designed at the same time and by the same person, which differs from what I interpreted here in previous posts.   I'll see what more I can find.

**Addendum** - The timing appears to coincide.   In November 1919 Tillinghast came back to review his work at nearby Kingsport which was nearing completion and according to the "Kingsport Times", "Mr. Tillinghast, who has been spending a few days after laying out the new course for Johnson City, will return to New York tonight".   


Incidentally, architect Maurice McCarthy (i.e. Hershey (PA) CC, others) was the builder for Kingsport to Tillinghast's design.   It is recorded that he stayed in Kingsport through the construction and grow-in.   Has me wondering if he may have also built JCCC?

You've hit the nail on the head. All above are exact although I have no "proof" yet that McCarthy did the construction of JCCC's first 9.


The original nine was sand greens and located in an area about a mile from the current course. I suspect that there was no "designer" of note and it was pretty handmade and homespun.


Did McCarthy keep any records of note?

[Brian Marion]

Brian,
I mean no disrespect and I actually applaud what you are doing/trying to do but I have to laugh as Mike Young has given many of us so much crap over the years for trying to do the same thing.  Read his rely #8 


For what they are worth, here a few quick suggestions, for one, I agree with Tom Doak about finding out what Tillie did on that golf course and do that.  Second, just because you have (or eventually find) the original plans does not mean you are all set to go to do a “restoration”.  It helps to have them but a very early aerial along with actual course photos are just as if not more valuable as that shows you what was actually built (or at least was on the ground at the date of the photo).  You want to find out what Tillie built, not just what he was thinking of building.  Third, what is the main goal of the club?  Do they even care about Tillinghast or do they just want a better golf course?  Part of your job is to help educate them to what they had and how it evolved and go from there.  You need to figure out what is it that they want to promote when all is said and done.  Best to be on the same page with them.  Good luck!

Zero disrespect taken.



Mike is still correct in the above as any attempt other than a "pure restoration" is sympathetic at best in my opinion. This what we are trying to do at my club. It's a balance of....


Take the best of what Tilly may have laid out(we don't have the plans)
combine with some images from a "snapped line in time" that represents a feeling of a high point for the course
Use some "what might have been" imagination
Consider current and future entire membership needs and wants
Update to modern play as much as needed or possible
Throw in some imagination and fun on holes that we know Tilly nor McCarthy(?) supervised.


What works for us is that some holes, especially the first 9, are pretty documented in aerials. For example, we had a true punchbowl green which should lean toward restoration, IMO. That green sits on a double dog leg par 5.


Now the question is should there be a great hazard? A GH was never originally built although Mike and I agree that we can see where it would have been placed initially, maybe even started and abandoned. Doesn't mean we will build one, that would not be a restoration of the original construction.


Plus, the membership has never seen a GH on that hole, ever. So, building it would be NEW to the club.


This is where original plans come in handy. Was it designed to be there by Tilly and the membership just said, nah....?


Or, do we put it in and be sympathetic to Tilly's style and would be an amazing addition?


The questions at hand are nuanced depending on location, date, construction supervisor/team, membership, etc..


As for membership caring? That was the point of another post I made. Truthfully, no. At least not to the extent that I do. They LOVE this place but many can't pinpoint why. So, we only want to enhance that feeling with the work.


I also agree with Mike's last sentence vociferously. It's his job to educate the membership and market the work he does - if he so desires. It's the clubs job to decide what we want to promote, internally and externally and how.