[Kalen Braley]

I'm not a fan of the first hole either but when you stand and look at that green its so small you really have to question, are all the greens this small and can I hit a green that's this small for 18 holes?

That's what struck me on the first green too. PS, they are and I couldn't.

And interestingly enough, the 1st green is one of the larger ones on the course by sq footage.. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Hopefully this doesn't seem too snidey but what I take from this thread is how important the backdrop, framing and view are to a lot of people in judging the quality of a hole, or perhaps the discussion has moved on to the general experience rather than the quality of the holes ?

Niall

Nothing new. Huck once said that Sand Hills would not be a top ten if you could see cell towers off in the distance. Now you can.

[John Kavanaugh]

Back on topic. The view of the smiling faces at the Hay was the first thing I saw on my most recent visit. Loved is so much that I pulled a Fat Albert.

[Jason Thurman]

Hopefully this doesn't seem too snidey but what I take from this thread is how important the backdrop, framing and view are to a lot of people in judging the quality of a hole, or perhaps the discussion has moved on to the general experience rather than the quality of the holes ?

Niall

You and I just don’t agree on what makes a quality golf hole. That much is evident, and that’s ok. It’s nice, really to learn that we shouldn’t put much stock in each other’s opinions on that front.


But if you believe that routing, shaping, and presentation are part of architecture, and that the guided journey around a property is one of the sources of joy that golf delivers, then don’t you also have to respect that things like backdrops and the general experience can’t just be taken for granted?


When Bill Coore delivers a reveal on par with the one that happens in the transition from 4 tee to 4 fairway, we talk about how he’s a genius. Acting like that sort of impact is inevitable at a place like Pebble feels disingenuous to me, or maybe it just shows a lack of awareness of how a great routing makes a course more than just a collection of holes.

[Niall C]

I absolutely agree that routing and shaping is part of architecture although not sure what you mean by presentation - presumably not conditioning ?


In my view routing is the most important aspect to designing a course. I wouldn't go as far as to suggest it is the be all and end all but it's certainly the bedrock of the design IMO. A good routing will make the best use of the topography and the features of the site while providing a good flow to the round, all without having to force in a clunky hole. In other words a good routing serves the whole rather than just individual holes, again IMO.   


I'd also accept that the architect can route the course to create views which all adds to the overall experience, but to go back to my earlier post where I cited the 7th at PB, once you've taken in the view, you then turn your attention to the hole and your shot. And really, its a fairly decent functional hole but nothing really inspiring. Once you start adding in extraneous things like what kind of view you get standing on the tee you are no longer comparing one hole with another.


As an aside, we played the par 3 course at Olympic on that trip and our group all agreed as fabulous an experience as we had at PB, the par 3's on the par 3 course at Olympic more than held their own compared to the PB par 3's.


Niall

[Gib_Papazian]

Niall,


Yeah, our Cliffs Course is fantastic - I was the one who brought our former Super onto #2 and suggested trimming the trees adjacent to the tee to open up the views - and it's really something to see.


But as far as #7 at Pebble, yeah a pretty straightforward shot in a vacuum, but let's see you figure out what to do in a swirling wind.


I once saw Andy Dillard try to punch a 4-iron at the left bunker and watch it move sideways in midair right into the drink.


 

[Jason Thurman]

I respect anyone who can parry the right hook of Arrowhead Point’s setting.


But Niall, on one hand, you say that routing serves the whole, not the holes.


On the other hand hand, you propose 7 would be better with a tee further back in 6’s direction. You say we’d hit to 7 green on an angle and that it would be a better hole in a vacuum, and I at least acknowledge the possibility that you would be right.


But you propose that change admitting that it would impact the skyline 6th approach, which we both know has a reputation as one of the world’s great holes, as evidenced in this thread. You may have friends who nod when you profess your love for oceanfront executive golf who agree when you say you don’t dig 6 really, but surely you at least recognize that many people with awfully good taste see its world-class qualities.


When working to ignore the ocean, surely you take note of the hill that flanks 7’s short corridor, creating that graceful reveal out 2 holes ahead. Another excellent moment guided gracefully by masterful routing.


But you, who claims that routing matters most and serves the whole rather than holes, also propose that it would be better to alter a transition hole that facilitates the moments above while also serving as one of the most iconic and unique holes in all the world of competitive golf.


I don’t know man. I think you’re so busy being too cool to look at the ocean that you, a routing connoisseur, are failing to notice the world-class routing pounding you right in the face.

[Matt MacIver]

Please keep this discussion going as my first visit is a short nine months away. My bias is going to be to love it and even appreciate the 11-16 mission.

[Kalen Braley]

Matt,

There are far better Pebble threads if you're trying to get in the mood...

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,18015.0.html

[Matt MacIver]

Thanks Kalen - a classic thread which I will reread in full for both its weirdness and hopefully some PB insights. 

[Niall C]

Jason


Yes, I think a good routing serves the whole rather than just an individual hole. What I mean by that is that finding a really excellent hole in a property but having to compromise the others to get it probably isn't the best routing you could have. At PB I think you have a pretty good routing as the ocean front is where you have the most interest in terms of land form and it is used well even if I think the design of the 7th could have been better within that hole corridor.


A couple of things though, I didn't say I didn't like the 6th. On the contrary, I questioned whether sticking the 7th tee up on top would be detrimental to the 6th - that's the conundrum you have with changing one hole as it can adversely impact another.


I also don't see how the 7th is a transition hole. You could just as easily go from the 6th green to 8th tee as play the 7th.


Gib


Yes, a lot of holes become a lot more interesting in a very strong wind 

Niall[size=78%]  [/size]

[Gib_Papazian]

Not many with a flip wedge.


#13 at Spanish Bay . . . . . like PB #7, lethal in the wind, but even in the calm, ya still gotta finesse a dainty little shot.


In comparison, #3 at Spyglass looks easy.




Actually, #11 at Pac Dunes (summer wind) is probably easiest of the shorty pants pitches  - most of the time it is perfectly dead into the breeze. Easier to sneak a choked-up long-iron directly into the gale than have to start one over the drink and pray it returns to dry land. 

[Jim_Coleman]

   I realize this isn’t responsive to the question, and so I apologize  in advance. The course with the biggest build up that took awhile to blow me away was Bethpage Black.
    Other than the sign, the first hole - meh.  2 and 3 - meh. Then you turn the corner, stand on the 4th tee, and see an amazing wall of sand hitting you smack in the face. Whoa!  And almost every hole thereafter is fabulous.

[Jason Thurman]

Niall, maybe I'm using the term "transition hole" differently than you. But your post calls out the thing that makes it a stroke of routing genius to me - I gotta think most architects would have gone straight from a green on the point (like 6) to a tee on the point (like the 8th). That's the obvious thing to do. By tucking one more so-tiny-it's-without-parallel-in-competitive-golf hole there, you get arguably the most iconic moment on one of the three most beloved courses in golf.


How can you maximize the whole better than that?


And while I get that 7 at Pebble isn't comparable with, like, 5 at Pine Valley, I think you're ignoring it for what it is. Pebble's routing offers mid-length and long par 3s elsewhere. You're about to play one of the hardest 3 hole stretches anywhere. And in front of you is a petite little wedge shot. There's a lot to be said for a hole that asks a good player to control ballflight with a lofted club from an elevated tee along a windy coastline. Meanwhile, my low-ball hitting mother took one of her best lifetime runs at an ace.


Seriously, if good golf architecture isn't a matter of challenging strong players while giving weaker players a fighting chance, and maximizing the natural attributes of a property to create indelible moments with variety of shot requirements distributed throughout, then what the hell is it?


In other words, can you explain how it would improve one of the greatest routings in golf to move 7 tee inland, into the blind landing area of 6, spoiling the delayed reveal of 10, 9, and finally 8, creating a walkback away from the sea and putting players on 8 tee into the line of fire for a hook, all so that you can create another mid length par 3 in a world full of them as opposed to one of golf's truly unique one shotters?

[Niall C]

Jason


I dare say there are different definitions for what a transition hole is but I've always thought of it as being a hole that connects different parts of the course by traversing a difficult bit of land such as a severe slope or gully. Basically a hole that is necessary just to get you to the next one after. If you have Tom D's Anatomy book pages 27 and 28 are worth a read. Anyway, you don't NEED to fit a short par 3 in there to make the routing work is what I'm saying but it is obviously a great opportunity to do so.


My criticism of the hole therefore is about it's individual design, meaning really the green design which I didn't find all that inspiring. The suggestion to shift the tee was to try and find a more interesting angle to go for the green but equally you could just redesign the green to something that isn't quite as straight forward or conventional. In the world of short par 3's, think of the Postage Stamp at Troon or the 11th at Castle Stuart, both far more interesting, inventive and challenging green complexes.


Niall   

[James Brown]

On 2nd fairway you start to begin your relationship with the ocean.  On 4th fairway you see the peninsula holes.  On 7th tee, you see “that spot.”  On 8th fairway you see “that shot.” And the holes to come.  The look left on 14 is awesome.  If you stand on 17 tee and are not moved, you are spoiled.  And you stand on 18 both scared and amazed.  It has a somewhat similar cadence and emotional impact to the Old Course. 

[Gib_Papazian]

Not to interrupt this passionate love fest, but let's not overlook the fact Pebble also has plenty of flaws - and therefore room for improvement.


Can you imagine - since money is virtually unlimited - a partial return to the Chandler Egan era?


At least expand the green on #11, blow up #12 and start all over again (just a terrible hole) and jazz up the hazard geometry on #14.


Heresy to some, but the current #17 green is idiotic and needs a sanity check. Just flatten out the hump enough to make putting from one section to the other possible and call it a day.


#6 at Riviera is contoured so putting around the horn, negotiating a bunker in the middle of the green, is reasonably doable. There is no reason to pretend the current #17 at Pebble is anything but an example of deferred maintenance and repair.


I acknowledge that #1 at Pebble is a real duck, but so is #1 at North Berwick and TOC. None of these scream for a boffo opening gambit like Spyglass #1.


Obviously, nothing at Pebble is sacrosanct - the world's worst uphill par-3 was so awful, millions of dollars were spent to erase it. Incidentally - I do not say this often - Nicklaus did a fabulous job with the replacement hole.


 








     

[MCirba]

I've never played Pebble, but I did have the opportunity to walk most of it a few years back after playing elsewhere in the morning and two thing stood out as "haymakers", meaning delivering a visceral, visual, physical, and emotional blow.

First the good.   The walk to the edge of the earth to stand on the 7th tee is one of the most inspiring views on the planet.   Walking up the hill on 8 to view the approach is equally devastating in it's delicious form and function.

However, the other thing that delivered a blow were the garish, Palmer-ish bunkers being added and/or modified on a number of holes.   My lord, talk about killing the lede!

[MKrohn]

Certainly a place that polarises opinion, perhaps due to the familiarity from TV and also perhaps cursed by Jack, it can fail to deliver on massive expectations.


I'm less enamoured with coastal views having played places like NSW many times and living near the beach all my life.


For our group, the "haymaker" moment was driving up to the course the evening before, hoping to get a game (but thinking we would miss out). We got a 7.30am tee time* the next day and were ecstatic, we wandered down near 18 and saw the Cypress......boom, we are here lads.


* played on a spectacular June day with 2 of my best mates. Its unlikely I will get there again, as a once off, its right up there.

[Steve Salmen]

In 1986 my pro took a few juniors to see the Spalding tournament held around New Years.  We followed Greg Norman most of the way.  The golf course was incredible, with one amazing hole after another.  Until it just could not get more spectacular: I will never forget my first look at the approach to the 8th green.


The only time I've played the course was a week after Tom Kite won the US Open in 1992.  I look forward to playing it on my 50th birthday (my Cincuentenera) next month.

[Ian Mackenzie]

First haymaker: Making a tee time without a $1,100 room reservation.


Second haymaker: the $500 green fee


Then, a soft jab to the chin:


- make sure you can hit a 3 wood draw on hole #3


Finally, the haymaker:


- After you only hit a 230 yard drive on #8 cuz your caddy scared the shit out of you, you are left with a 207 yard shot over Stillwater Cove to a green that is the size of your living room!!!!

[Terry Lavin]

With tongue firmly in cheek, I’ll say the 19th hole put the whole experience together. The first few holes are a tad bland but once you get to #6, it’s hard to keep your head down because of the majestic views. 6-10 are world class great. 11-15 are a bit more mundane and the last three holes are very good, if not epic.


But once inside, you immediately start recalling those great holes while quietly dismissing the rest. Of all the great courses I’ve played Pebble has the unique combo of great holes and forgettable holes.


Pebble is in my top 20, but the haymaker comes in the form of a group conversation about the experience of playing a course that we’ve all seen on television.


Final point: We’ve been chatting about great restorations. Pebble Beach is still lacking in that regard. Just saying…

[Rob Marshall]

After my round my wife and I had lunch in the Tap Room with the guys I played with. Didn’t know them before hand, I was a single. After eating and a beer or two we walked the course out to the 8th fairway turned around and walked in on 17 and 18 as the sun was setting. The biggest disappointment was not being able to call my father to tell him about the round. He had passed away the year before which was why I went. He was only 68 and I didn’t want to regret never playing there. $2200 for two nights, round on Pebble and round on Spyglass. I still think it was a steal.

[Tim Martin]

After my round my wife and I had lunch in the Tap Room with the guys I played with. Didn’t know them before hand, I was a single. After eating and a beer or two we walked the course out to the 8th fairway turned around and walked in on 17 and 18 as the sun was setting. The biggest disappointment was not being able to call my father to tell him about the round. He had passed away the year before which was why I went. He was only 68 and I didn’t want to regret never playing there. $2200 for two nights, round on Pebble and round on Spyglass. I still think it was a steal.

Rob-Great post. There are some things in life that you can’t put a price on.

[Mike_Trenham]

I'll say middle of 4 fairway when you get past the building (Beach Club?) and see the water to your right. Plus I'm a sucker for short uphill 4-pars and that's one of my favorites.

My father played there in the Crosby around 1964 and he said exactly the same thing.  Back in those days there were few books with great photography.  He told me when he got to #4, he just thought to himself “holy hell what is this? And why didn’t someone tell me how great this place is”.  For me the same moment came at age 14 when our family traveled to Yosemite and I basically told my parents “I would not have been such a bastard if you had taken the time to explain to me how great our trip would be”.

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