[Ira Fishman]

I have never been a rater, but I have had the pleasure of playing all four of the courses on which the thread is premised. I have no idea what criteria would be valid to make fine distinctions among some of the truly finest courses in the world. I do not think even a 10 play split would offer any meaningful differences.


So I will fall back on the "Private Jet" test: my imaginary wealthy friend tells me that he has his PJ fired up but that I can pick only one of the four courses. I would ask the pilot to head to Ballyneal. Why? Because thinking about it right this moment, I know that I will have a blast playing it again. And from an architectural standpoint, it strikes me as the least similar to other great courses I have played.


But tomorrow I might ask the pilot to head to any of the other three courses. It is a first world problem for which I offer a hypothetical first world thought exercise.


Ira

[Mike Sweeney]

Did Muccii ever join FH? Before construction of the beautiful clubhouse he told me the course wasn’t worth the drive. “Not worth the drive” is the working mans meh.

Pat did not join.


As a local, I offer the following Long Island ranking:


1) NGLA - The Mother Ship.
2) Shinnecock - Open to good golfers having it at #1.
3) Maidstone - As I age, it might be #1.
4) Piping Rock - Raynor fan, so there you go.
5) Fishers Island - It was some sort of Indian treaty or ice age thing, but it is east of Maidstone, and it is in NY State.
6) Garden City GC - It’s flat-ish, but if I was going to ruin 29 years of marriage, this is the place to do it.
7) Friars Head - Amazing updates. I really enjoyed the “Papazian Days” when lunch was on a park bench on the cliff over Long Island Sound.
  Westhampton - It’s painful to put this over #9, but Hanse did an amazing job when he was “under the radar”.
9) Southampton - God bless Brian Silva. Uniqueness in a sea of greatness.
10) Saint George’s Golf and Country Club - If it was “golf only” in a fancier location…


Obviously missing:

• The Creek - Raynor + views, what am I thinking!
• Sebonack - have not played
• Bethpage Black - man oh man, I loved this place until everyone else did - "Nobody goes there anymore. It's too crowded.” Yogi Berra
• Bethpage Red - shout out to Kyle
• Atlantic GC - I honestly really liked it in the Rees days. Need to see it in the updated version.
• The Bridge - Really intrigued by Jeff’s work here. We underestimate passion. I only saw the very early day version of The Bridge.

PS - I am only a "rater" on GCA. Never on a ratings panel...
PPS - Timber Point is really flat, except for that one corner

[mike_malone]

Someone who can search better than I should unearth my “heretical” (to some) or “post of the year ( to others) topic titled  “ What does Friars Head add to the portfolio of great golf courses?” 


  I told Michael about it and now he’s doing something similar.

[Jim Hoak]

Ira--Good test!  Personal, not objective.  But what other way is there, as you say, to distinguish 4 great modern courses?

[Sean_A]

It’s not really hole by hole when you know the winner before you start.

Thats why I do it sometimes. It really helps me put courses in perspective. When I started doing it ~15 years ago I better understood that some sacred cows are not all that. More pertinently, I realised that places like Kington, Cleeve Cloud, Sacred 9, Cavendish etc are far better than rankings indicate. That isn't to say I ignore routing etc, it's just another tool to help see courses in a less subjective manner if I need to do a ranking.

Ciao

[mike_malone]

The hole by hole comparison also doesn’t take into account comparing a great hole on one course to a so so one on another. Maybe give that hole 1 1/2 or 2 points.

[jeffwarne]

The hole by hole comparison also doesn’t take into account comparing a great hole on one course to a so so one on another. Maybe give that hole 1 1/2 or 2 points.

You mean make it a stroke play event
GCA heresy

[mike_malone]

The hole by hole comparison also doesn’t take into account comparing a great hole on one course to a so so one on another. Maybe give that hole 1 1/2 or 2 points.

You mean make it a stroke play event
GCA heresy

Jeff,


It’s just like the number par being an issue for 1/2 par holes.

[John Foley]

What I can understand is when looking at FH vs the classics (Shinny, Oakmont, WFW, Chicago etc..) that there are elements which they have, which FH doesn't. Notwithstanding the historical element, I never felt that I was punished severely for a poor shot at FH where the others you are. Is that a reason to says it's overrated? Are there others? Are the tee shots too benign? FW's too wide? Green surrounds to easily recovered from? I think those examples could be valid.


Michael C says no features that smack of flashiness but conceal a gaping shallowness underneath. (not sure what that means)
Jeff S says Solid course yes, but not a great course
Corey M says relative to Pacific Dunes and to Ballyneal and a host of other classic courses I also find Friar's Head "over-rated"


I respect these guys and their opinions, but I can't fathom a world where FH isn't a top X course. 50 in the world, 10 in the US, 3 on LI? All those measurements are soo subjective, but in many people’s minds that's where the course would fit. Not arguing right or wrong, over / underrated just wondering why. Way back in the day on this web site, talking about something similar, someone much more articulate than me stated "you can't separate the experience from the course". Gib, Mike S & Shel all fondly remember the early pre-airplane engine shower head playing out of the maintenance area rounds. It's the same (not identical though) course so that experience comes out.


In the end, FH is a beautiful course. Challenging enough to require me to execute precisely on most every shot while allowing me to never get into a "how am I ever getting out of this mess" position. The design elements which unfold thru the routing (BTW anyone else think the breath you take playing the 13th hole before the 14-18 is brilliant?) gives the golfer a great flow. Glad to have gotten the chance to play and when I think of where it stands with the courses I have and have not seen, there's no more than a few I'd choose to experience before getting back to Baiting Hallow.

[jeffwarne]

I respect these guys and their opinions, but I can't fathom a world where FH isn't a top X course. 50 in the world, 10 in the US, 3 on LI?

I agree with your entire post, but I think Mike Sweeney's post describes why a world CAN be fathomed where FH isn't in someone's top 3 on Long Island.
Heck, two of them are generally concensus top 5 in the country/world.
I'd say Top 50 in the world and (maybe) Top 10 in the US is easier to "crack" than Top 3 on Long Island

[Tim Gallant]

the transition from 15 to 16 isn't architecture per say but great. Like Barnbougle!

This struck me as absolutely architecture! A heart racing after the run of 13-15 - how do you recentre a player? I'm also thinking of the walk from 15 to 16 at CP. That's the best part of the round IMHO. You get glimpses through the trees, you're about to play the greatest hole on planet earth, and you have 200 yards to think about it. Wow.

[Tal Oz]

Tim you nail it right on the head! I played FH for the first time this summer so I never saw the pre-bridge transition from 15-16, but that 2 min walk and catch your breath 150' above the water was absolutely architecture. I was blown away at 16 and after reading Ran's profile it made so much sense that finding 16 was the key to unlocking the routing.

[John Kirk]

I believe you are referring to the walk between the 14th green and the 15th tee.  #14 is the fine short par 5, and when the hole is completed, the players walk up a dune to the 15th tee.  The 15th is my choice for best hole on the course, dramatic and beautiful.  The course then finishes with a mid-length dogleg right par 4, a postage stamp par 3, and a medium long dogleg left par 4 with a steeply sloped green.

The walk between #14 and #15 is maybe 50-75 yards, and if I remember correctly, it is the only long walk between holes.  That's an intangible aspect of Friar's Head.  On every(?) other hole, you just walk off the green a few yards and tee off.  The exceptionally short green to tee walks help make the pace of play excellent.

Michael, thanks for the opening post.   Pacific Dunes fares very well in this type of hole-by-hole analysis.  It has an excellent variety of rather unique holes.  Any time I've compared Pac Dunes to another course this way, it wins.  Not that I've tried it all that many times.

Comparing my preferences between holes at these great courses, I arrive at different conclusions in quite a few instances.  That's the beauty of this analysis style.  People like different things.  There may even be a desire to play devil's advocate and disagree for the sake of debate.  For instance, I agree with Mike Nuzzo that holes #10 and #15 at Friar's Head are amazing.  But some of my other favorites there, like #4, are quirky, less popular choices.  Among my other faves are #2, #6, #8, #13, #14 and #16.

[Jeff Schley]

I'm referring to the walk between 15 and 16. I'm fine with considering it GCA as it adds to the course experience. Just like short transitions between holes is applauded this longer beautiful walk can be lumped in there as well.

Also to be clear, I didn't say FH is solid, but not great. I was referring to a course without great holes can be solid, but not great. FH has great holes and thus consider it a great course most definitely.

FYI this is the walk for those that haven't been, it is not a dream, but close.






another
up top

[Mike Sweeney]

Jeff,


Thanks for posting those, especially that aerial. I think they were building that bridge when I last played. I have hiked a bunch on top of the cliffs on the South Fork at Cedar Point Park and also along the cliffs near Noyac GC (not on the water, but close). That soil is really fragile. North Fork is probably more stable, and they obviously have the "old path" if Mother Nature has a bad winter.


It won't be a popular here on GCA, but sometimes too much money is a real problem. Golf needs to be a leader with stuff like this, IMO. I used to sail, and that bridge is a scar on the landscape for the Long Island Sound sailers. If Donald Trump built it, there would be a huge reaction. I am in no way a fan of Trump's, but come on that is overkill...

[Cal Seifert]

The erosion on the bluffs around the north shore of the north fork is no joke. Some people have gone tremendous lengths to try and hinder it. Almost reminds me of the stories about the erosion at sankaty head to a lesser degree.

[John Kavanaugh]

That Bridge looks quite the opposite of too much money. I’m sure there was a better much more expensive solution.

[Tim Martin]

That Bridge looks quite the opposite of too much money. I’m sure there was a better much more expensive solution.

It looks like erosion will win the day versus the bridge in question.

[Michael Felton]

That Bridge looks quite the opposite of too much money. I’m sure there was a better much more expensive solution.

It looks like erosion will win the day versus the bridge in question.

I must admit that conclusion did not escape my attention as I walked across it. It's really quite a long way down to the water and that bank is steep.

[John Kavanaugh]

Looks like a classic spoon failure exacerbated by the construction of the bridge. If the poster of that picture has any friends left at Friars Head he/she should delete it from social media. Showing erosion has always been a passive aggressive technique of insulting golf courses.

[John Kirk]

I'm referring to the walk between 15 and 16. I'm fine with considering it GCA as it adds to the course experience. Just like short transitions between holes is applauded this longer beautiful walk can be lumped in there as well.

Also to be clear, I didn't say FH is solid, but not great. I was referring to a course without great holes can be solid, but not great. FH has great holes and thus consider it a great course most definitely.

FYI this is the walk for those that haven't been, it is not a dream, but close.

Hi Jeff,

Yes, sorry.  I didn't understand because I didn't even know that existed.  I last played Friar's Head in about 2006-7.  It probably wasn't even there at the time.  We just rolled off the 15th green to a tee box nearby.

[Kalen Braley]

The sand bridge seems to have been to an add-on for the experience, because it certainly wasn't to shorten the walk.

According to Google Earth:

- 15 green to the middle tee box on 16 is about 125 yards taking the original inland route.
- Using the new bridge route, about 160 yards.

[Jeff Schley]

Although a bridge, the walk does remind me of the vista from Barnbougle.

[Jeff Schley]

Sorry to thread jack somewhat, but a couple other courses where the water walk along the ocean could be similiar, but isn't, are Royal Cinque Ports (is that a public walk I think?) with the built up seawall dune and Maidstone. Shows that the walk or view is icing on the cake, but not the cake. Both are special enough aside from this feature as FH is.
RCP
Maidstone

[SteveOgulukian]

Did Muccii ever join FH? Before construction of the beautiful clubhouse he told me the course wasn’t worth the drive. “Not worth the drive” is the working mans meh.

Pat did not join.


As a local, I offer the following Long Island ranking:


1) NGLA - The Mother Ship.
2) Shinnecock - Open to good golfers having it at #1.
3) Maidstone - As I age, it might be #1.
4) Piping Rock - Raynor fan, so there you go.
5) Fishers Island - It was some sort of Indian treaty or ice age thing, but it is east of Maidstone, and it is in NY State.
6) Garden City GC - It’s flat-ish, but if I was going to ruin 29 years of marriage, this is the place to do it.
7) Friars Head - Amazing updates. I really enjoyed the “Papazian Days” when lunch was on a park bench on the cliff over Long Island Sound.
  Westhampton - It’s painful to put this over #9, but Hanse did an amazing job when he was “under the radar”.
9) Southampton - God bless Brian Silva. Uniqueness in a sea of greatness.
10) Saint George’s Golf and Country Club - If it was “golf only” in a fancier location…


Obviously missing:

• The Creek - Raynor + views, what am I thinking!
• Sebonack - have not played
• Bethpage Black - man oh man, I loved this place until everyone else did - "Nobody goes there anymore. It's too crowded.” Yogi Berra
• Bethpage Red - shout out to Kyle
• Atlantic GC - I honestly really liked it in the Rees days. Need to see it in the updated version.
• The Bridge - Really intrigued by Jeff’s work here. We underestimate passion. I only saw the very early day version of The Bridge.

PS - I am only a "rater" on GCA. Never on a ratings panel...
PPS - Timber Point is really flat, except for that one corner

I'll sometimes do a head-to-head hole by hole comparison just out of curiosity to see how some courses stack up against each other.  I'll try to move holes around so that I am not comparing a par 5 on course A to a par 3 on course B.  I am not a rater, but I'll just do this for fun after playing a new course.


I have never played Friars Head, but I've heard a handful of people say that it's the best course on Long Island.  Bold statement!  Whether or not they are influenced more by the clubhouse and overall experience remains to be seen.


Mike's post above got me thinking of my LI top 10.  Here it is for what it's worth:


1) NGLA
2) Shinnecock
3) Fishers Island
4) The Creek
5) Maidstone
6) Piping Rock
7) Garden City
  Westhampton
9) Bethpage Black
10) St. George's

Honorable mentions: Rockaway Hunting Club and Montauk Downs

 
 Disclaimer: I have not yet played Friars Head, Southampton, Atlantic, or The Bridge

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