William Flynn Greens

[MCirba]

There is not much talk about them on this site but William Gordon’s greens are very similar to Flynn’s which should be no surprise as Gordon worked for Flynn for many years.  Gordon’s bunkers, however, are a different matter.  I have said many times, Gordon paid close attention to how Flynn designed his greens but missed most of Flynn’s bunker classes.  There is a distinct difference between the two architects when it came to bunkering.

Missing Gordon greens to the short side is always a predictably long next putt.

[mike_malone]

My experience with Gordon greens is much more undulations.

[Jim Sherma]

Mark - In regards to Flynn vs Gordon bunkers, what are the significant differences that you considered in your comment. Construction, strategic intent or something else? Also, how much is a function of the land that they were given to work on.

[Mark_Fine]

Jim,
I have always felt Gordon’s bunkering vs Flynn’s is generally much more formulaic and more predictable.  I am not at my home office with all my information but off the top of my head I can’t think of a single Gordon course where the bunkering inspires me.  It’s basic and functional but usually not much more.  His greens, however, were where he shined and I still think they were closer to what Flynn did (no buried elephants or tiers), just smooth flowing with what I call roll-offs and pull-ups.  I think Ron Forse once called Flynn’s greens potato chips and Gordon did the same.  Other than Stanwich, I am trying to think of a real set of severe (extensive internal contour) Gordon greens?? Can you?

[mike_malone]

Mark,


Old York Road is Gordon, right?  It’s greens are so undulating it’s hard to find pin placements.

[MCirba]

Mark,


Old York Road is Gordon, right?  It’s greens are so undulating it’s hard to find pin placements.

May be their wildest greens. 

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
I am not sure about Old York Road but I trust you are correct. I have not played that one. You sure they are original greens?  Is it a William Gordon?

[MCirba]

Mark,


Yes, I don't know what their marching orders were but they are a funky outlier in the vast Gordon's catalog.  Worth a visit, as is Medford Village.

[Jim Sherma]

Mark - Off the top of my head I always liked Locust Valley’s set of greens. There were definitely a few greens with some significant internal movement.


More generally, after our round at Bethlehem I am no longer sure what is attributable to the as built design versus that plus decades of top dressing, thatch and sand splash build-up. Certainly they are intimately connected, but also distinct in important ways as well.

[Mark_Fine]

Jim,
Yes I liked Locust Valley's greens as well but sadly they no longer exist. But even there, no buried elephants and no trying to putt up and over and through the clown's nose.   


Bethlehem has a wonderful set of "Gordon" greens.  As you correctly point out, years of change, evolution and maintenance have a significant impact on what was first built - much more than most realize.  When you work on an old green it is a bit like peeling back an onion to see how it evolved.  As we discussed, the sand build up there  was incredible.

[Brian Finn]

The Fried Egg's latest podcast is an interview with Wayne Morrison about William Flynn.  Really interesting and informative. 

[Kyle Harris]

Mark,


Old York Road is Gordon, right?  It’s greens are so undulating it’s hard to find pin placements.

May be their wildest greens.

Not even close.

Bucks County Country Club.

[archie_struthers]

 


Always felt Flynn used triangles in his design of greens. Many of the fronts are smallish and widen from a point.  The 18th at Philadelphia CC and many of the Indian Creek surfaces bring that to mind as you assess them. Lots more examples for sure but this was a feature that always struck me as a personal tick of Mr Flynn.