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Gib_Papazian

Re: Long overdue in the GCA field
« Reply #50 on: October 23, 2021, 01:35:43 PM »
I'm not sure which vinyl record TD is referring to, but here is the reasoning:


Toronto or Glen Head have limited seasons, so better build shangri-la for the ladies at a warm weather destination.


I'm just not feelin' the idea of a Constance Havershire, Dorothy Mayflower and a couple random Karens mustering up the enthusiasm to bump and bounce on a noisy Bandon puddle-jumper, to spend a few days whistling 1-irons into a screaming gale.


The Northwood, Monte Rio girls club is full-rip butch - and they look tougher than me, no doubt. But putting aside that demographic, you still got to attract Her Redness and cabal . . . . . who are just as interested in apres-golf indulgences as whapping a pellet along the dry fescue.   


And the reward is not a spa and massage treatment, but a pile of meat loaf, gravy and heavy pour cocktails . . . so Bandon is out. I think Wailea Emerald is the closest thing I've seen, but longer on eye candy than thoughtful architecture for women . . . . whose participation in our game is CRUCIAL going forward.


That why I suggested a return to the old style, C.B./Raynor Dev Emmett classical arrangements - that all harken back to the gutty and even featherie eras. Those holes no longer play anywhere near as intended for legit gunners due to new equipment, but for ladies and weaker seniors, the fun factor is still fabulous.


I once saw Freddie hoist an 8-iron at the Shinnecock Redan so high it tickled God's gonads - and plopped next to the back-left pin, like squeezing a turd out of a mud hen. Not even an LPGA player is ever going to try that shot.


Biarritz holes are now, shoot the yadage, pull a bat and firebomb the pin with a mid-iron  . . . . last time I played Creek Club, that youngster never even thought about using the contours to run up his ball.


It has always seemed like courses set up for women and seniors (like me) work better when thought through like a game of Chutes and Ladders.


Why present a purely aerial, approach shot challenge when a hugely amusing Punchbowl increases the fun factor?


The "Black Tees" can be an afterthought, just like the forward tees on full size courses often appear randomly placed somewhere down the fairway.


Having played with - and coached - enough girls and women to know better, 5500 yards at sea level is about the most for regular play. Less maintenance, water and TIME to play it. No rough. Zero - but every kind of ramp, runup, swale and plenty of containment mounds.


Not to dumb it down, but to make it enjoyable . . . . . and never hold an LPGA or major women's Am tournament there. That is what I would do - and over time, like anything else, you workshop the setup to see what works.


And TD, c'mon Bro! Lickin' your chops to do a victory dance over Brandel? That is kinda like me having a photography contest against a freshman year cinema student - and then putting the trophy on my mantle. You're better than that . . . . .


 


 




 


 


 
« Last Edit: October 24, 2021, 08:42:35 AM by Gib Papazian »

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Long overdue in the GCA field
« Reply #51 on: October 23, 2021, 01:50:52 PM »
Couldn't agree more with Mark Fine's comments on this thread, exactly on point.

My skepticism in general is based on the endless threads where its been asked "who has done anything really different or innovative in the game recently"... and nothing is brought forward.  Maybe TD really does have a few interesting ideas that he's gonna stay mum on, but otherwise this is nothing more than marketing bs.

However, its not all bad I guess, I do admire on some level when someone figures out a new way to polish a terd and find a buyer...

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Long overdue in the GCA field
« Reply #52 on: October 23, 2021, 03:46:12 PM »
Post 50 by Gib pretty well nails what is required and as he eludes to there are plenty of old courses about that do the job.


Niall

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Long overdue in the GCA field
« Reply #53 on: October 23, 2021, 05:28:42 PM »
They should be careful which LPGA tour pro they choose to work with.  If they pick someone who is like Marion Hollins they might end up with holes like the 16th at Cypress Point :)

No one is going to convince me that courses should be designed strickly for men or women. Distance and forced carries are the key denominators and generally multiple teeing locations can address this.  Furthermore, if the ground game is in play on most all of the holes, this presents more options for a much wider range of abilities.  This is not rocket science. 

When I start telling my wife who is a 35 handicapper that she shouldn’t play The Old Course at St. Andrews during our trip next year because it wasn’t really designed for women, that is when I will need two hotel rooms. :(

But, if you dumb down the rough for ladies, won't there be a significant number of dissenters among the men?
If you dumb down the bunkers, likewise?
If you require big time backspin to hit it close on the greens, won't you be penalizing even the best women?

und so weiter
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Gib_Papazian

Re: Long overdue in the GCA field
« Reply #54 on: October 23, 2021, 06:27:58 PM »
Niall,


Reads like my allusions eluded the point . . . .


You are correct, there are already plenty of courses that could be easily converted and polished up to attract more gals. Peacock Gap in Marin plays a fast 5200-5700 yards from the shorter markers, but the architecture provides all sorts of options for women and seniors, which is why every time I'm in San Rafael, the grass driving range looks like a warmup for the Ladies Invitational.


What I'm really thinking - and there is plenty of room for our resident aging Maverick to conjure up his own strategic schematics for New Women's National - but my first thought was a truncated version of Stonebridge in Smithtown, LI . . . . except in a warm winter climate.


It is like Goldilocks and the Three Bears . . . . that course is "juuust right" in size, scope and classical ground-game interest.  This mythical CCFAD for ladies would also work as a destination for senior couples. Pieces of an "ideal golf course" for an aging population - short on bat speed and water - are already right in front of everybody.


I'm still not sure a private club of that type is economically sustainable, but proof of concept is the fact droves of women support both Peacock Gap AND Deep Cliff in Cupertino, also with a bulletproof ladies following. It would be budgeting the amenities and finding alternative revenue streams to justify the advertising. 


       
« Last Edit: October 23, 2021, 06:35:07 PM by Gib Papazian »

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Long overdue in the GCA field
« Reply #55 on: October 23, 2021, 06:35:35 PM »
and the above posts perfectly illustrate why it would make sense to have a woman involved in the decision process...

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Long overdue in the GCA field
« Reply #56 on: October 23, 2021, 06:42:01 PM »
and the above posts perfectly illustrate why it would make sense to have a woman involved in the decision process...


Yup.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Gib_Papazian

Re: Long overdue in the GCA field
« Reply #57 on: October 23, 2021, 08:27:20 PM »
Jeff and Kyle,


Yes, having women deeply involved in the process makes perfect sense - after all, that is your core customer. However, my experience in this milieu also suggests some potential challenges.


20-odd years ago - after a series of disruptive, idiotic public meetings full of angry boo birds and cheap whiners - we managed to convince the City of San Mateo to cough up 10 million to rebuild the entire Coyote Point golf facility.


FKA "San Mateo Muni" (nebulous original connection to one of Tillie's WPA projects) - but also nicknamed "Disgusta National" - we rebranded it as Poplar Creek GC, hired Steve Halsey and assembled a sharply focused ad hoc citizen' committee to help guide the process.


The course already had a rock solid following of ladies and seniors (and senior ladies), many of whom were also my readers, agitating for an additional course on County land.


So, the four local gals on the Committee were deadly serious about their golf and wants for the overall facility. Remember, these are all experienced, lifelong women's players.


But their contributions to our agenda discussions about THE ACTUAL COURSE REDESIGN were never more than vague platitudes, woefully short on specifics.


They had strong ideas about their new locker room, fees, cart policies and membership, but their eyes glazed over every time we reviewed different routings and specific, concrete architectural particulars.


And in the years since - putting aside a couple top women amateurs and professionals - I cannot recall a single fully articulated comment by a woman about a particular feature (except "the rough is too high") with a suggestion on how it might be improved or recontoured to make it friendlier or more appropriate to women.


Now, the Nerd Factor runs stronger in men - one reason why the male/female ratio at old Genesis concerts was about 500-1 - but women generally do not seem to take an interest in the nitty gritty details of construction.


There are also almost no female D.P.'s (although Alex Baldwin just managed to accidentally kill a unicorn) or golf architects - perhaps not because they are denied opportunities - but because that subject does not inspire most women. Gawd knows there are plenty of female film and theatrical Directors, I am married to one.


All I am suggesting is organizationally, women can easily sit at the head table and write policy, but I just don't know a single one who has ever demonstrated enough curiosity to look under the hood at the how and whys of their home course.


I am sure there are all sorts of reasons, but putting aside Marion Hollins or Alice Dye - and considering the massive amount of discretionary spending power women have in America - I've never seen a single woman on the masthead of a project like that.










     


   


   
« Last Edit: October 24, 2021, 08:45:53 AM by Gib Papazian »

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Long overdue in the GCA field
« Reply #58 on: October 23, 2021, 08:53:00 PM »
Gib


It was a red wine post. Besides, I'm Scottish and English is a second language.


Niall

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Long overdue in the GCA field
« Reply #59 on: October 23, 2021, 09:20:09 PM »
Isn't this all rather sexist anyway ? Does it really matter about the sex of the golfer in designing the course when what actually matters is whether they are a good/bad player or a strong/weak player. My reading of the golden age guys is that they tried to cater for all in their design eg. MacKenzies maxim that the weaker player should be able to tack their way round hazards to the hole albeit at the loss of some shots. Less cross hazards and more flanking hazards should suffice.


Niall

Gib_Papazian

Re: Long overdue in the GCA field
« Reply #60 on: October 23, 2021, 10:14:08 PM »
Everything in our insanely (and inanely) fucked up country gets examined through the twisted, kaleidoscopic lens of political correctness - and nobody dares ask why. For example - I have never met a truly outstanding (male) Makeup Artist who batted from the same side of the plate as me.


Golf proficiency is irrelevant, Raynor barely knew what end of the club to hold . . . . . the net net is we gotta figure out a way to extract mo' dinero from the other half of the golf population. Maybe most cannot articulate whether this feature or that schematic makes for a better overall pacing on their golf course, but I promise you, the CORE ELEMENTS that encourage them to choose to expend their discretionary capital are probably going to have less to do with the golf course and more with the tertiary amenities.


I'd put Her Redness in charge, because she has an insane I.Q. - and thinks through things more like a traditional man, but it would have to be a committee of one. 



 
« Last Edit: October 24, 2021, 08:49:56 AM by Gib Papazian »

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Long overdue in the GCA field
« Reply #61 on: October 23, 2021, 10:21:36 PM »
My posts on this topic have NOTHING to do with political correctness, but rather who both is qualified to do the job, AND what makes the best sense from a business and marketing perspective, while also demonstrating committment to putting money where their mouth/strategy is.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2021, 08:11:26 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Peter Pallotta

Re: Long overdue in the GCA field
« Reply #62 on: October 23, 2021, 10:39:56 PM »
Edit: It's none of my business. 

« Last Edit: October 23, 2021, 11:11:11 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Matthew Rose

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Long overdue in the GCA field
« Reply #63 on: October 24, 2021, 12:11:56 AM »
I thought they already tried this in the 80s, in Texas. I don't remember what it was called but I remember seeing an article about it in an old TOUR magazine I had. I think it had an LPGA event for a few years.

It was in the Houston area. Maybe they can play the Dinah Shore there, lol.
American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Long overdue in the GCA field
« Reply #64 on: October 24, 2021, 08:41:22 AM »
Never mind the 1980's they did this 130 years ago at a number of places and some ladies clubs are still going strong, For instance Lundin Ladies GC ( www.lundinladiesgolfclub.co.uk ) who had a 9 hole course designed for them by James Braid no less in 1910.


Their blurb claims "It is a course suitable for players of all ages and ability." If that is so, what did Braid know then that modern architects seem to have forgotten ?
Niall


Gib_Papazian

Re: Long overdue in the GCA field
« Reply #65 on: October 24, 2021, 09:08:46 AM »
I'll qualify my remarks to exclude courses in the U.K. - the core ethos of the game is incredibly different there and I've met quite a few erudite, learned women golfers whose opinions come from a serious base of knowledge.


For one, the Portland Course seems dominated by women - and I'd rather play it with Mrs. Rutherford and her fast-paced regular game than endure 18 holes of Calvinist character building across Crosbie Road . . . . but we don't make that model of girl golfer here in America.


We'll always have a small percentage of jock-chicks in America, aspiring to play in the Curtis Cup, but the 45 year-old, marching at flank speed down the fairway with bag on shoulder and Brassie in hand at the ready . . . . . you gotta fly British Airways to see one of those.


Then again, I'm hopelessly married to a women from the Campbell clan, so I might be biased. 






   




   
« Last Edit: October 24, 2021, 09:38:15 AM by Gib Papazian »

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Long overdue in the GCA field
« Reply #66 on: October 24, 2021, 09:40:31 AM »
What major airport is near Harlingen, Texas? Can it sustain itself with local play? Not everyone is intrepid enough for a cross country flight and then hours of windshield time before breaking the tape. I see that there is a regional airport but don’t like the chances of getting there reasonably from many metro areas across the country. The premise is both interesting and sustainable and I would be happy to learn the upside of the location. Obviously there are a lot of people in Texas. :)
« Last Edit: October 24, 2021, 11:30:55 AM by Tim Martin »

Gib_Papazian

Re: Long overdue in the GCA field
« Reply #67 on: October 24, 2021, 10:01:16 AM »
Tim,


The number of men vs. women stupid enough to wade through an inconvenient shitstorm to get to Bandon is about the same ratio as men vs. women dying to climb Mt. Everest.


Guys are dumb - and will endure whatever to hold that Holy Grail in their hands. Women want convenience, safety and completely different amenities waiting . . . . . a glass of bubbly on arrival, not a distracted point to Shoe, pushing groups off the first tee.


Easy airport access, no problem shuttles to the facility . . . . . zero hassles. The cachet of the joint is secondary. Given the choice, a group of lady golfers would 100% vote to travel to The Boulders Golf and Spa than spend three days in a cabana at PV.


Some backwater in Texas with a great track is not going to attract any gals . . . . . idiots like us? I'll meet you at the airport.
 


 




jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Long overdue in the GCA field
« Reply #68 on: October 24, 2021, 11:27:43 AM »
Is it any wonder it's so "long overdue"?
 ::) ::) ::)



"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Long overdue in the GCA field
« Reply #69 on: October 24, 2021, 11:40:47 AM »
Is it any wonder it's so "long overdue"?
 ::) ::) ::)


I would think if a viable business plan to advance such
an idea was in evidence then it would have happened by now. What’s the wonder?

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