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Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Long overdue in the GCA field
« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2021, 09:19:13 AM »

My main focus on designing a course for women would be to emphasize their ability to hit the ball straight.  Lots of women can hit the ball on a string into a ten- or twenty-yard area.  If you designed a course around that ability, even if it was short, I think it would be pretty challenging for the boys . . . especially if the fairways doglegged at distances suited to women, and guys had to hit over the corner to a tight landing area in order to cash in on their advantage in strength.

Hi Tom,

Previous studies have shown that women tend to be less proficient on short shots around the green.  At least that is true for professional level players in each sport.  A quick perusal of articles on the Internet promotes the idea that women, in general, spend less time practicing their short games.  Here's one representative article from 2010:

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/putting-matthew-rudy

Theoretically, would your ideal women's course feature less challenging green complexes?  Might you shy away from the deep greenside bunker, or a particularly sloped or undulating green?  How about a green perched above the fairway, with short grass all around?

Similarly, I'm curious about how you would use fairway sand hazards.  To create interest for all levels of golfers, it seems there should be some bunkers where a carry of as little as 100 yards provides challenge and a reward for the elderly players.

My opinion is these types of challenges should not be minimized, but perhaps the physical strength of the players needs to be considered.  In addition to challenge and intrigue, contoured green complexes often add beauty to the course.


Thank you for your time, I'll take my answer off the air.


From a sample size of one. My wife loved Ballyneal, and she also loved Somerset Hills so I don't think green complexes are "problem" to be solved. SH was a bit too long though. Forced carries occasionally are fine for her so long as they do not entail having to lay up in awkward places such as a stream or cross bunker on a Par 5 that negates a good drive. Firm and fast with ground game options into the greens.


Aesthetics more important to her than me. Crail Balcomie is one of her favorites.


She could care less about spa, pool, etc. Decent bar food and a good shower.


Ira
« Last Edit: October 22, 2021, 11:53:13 AM by Ira Fishman »

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Long overdue in the GCA field
« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2021, 09:20:26 AM »
Are y'all sure you're interpreting this story correctly?


Every mention in that article talks about design for elite/LPGA/tournament-playing women.


Which is still interesting and cool to think about, but it also means that this is going to be a course of very similar scale to PLENTY of other courses. Nick notes a conversation about Cypress Point a couple posts above... it seems to me that there's a good chance this course tips out longer than Cypress does.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Long overdue in the GCA field
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2021, 09:30:53 AM »
Are y'all sure you're interpreting this story correctly?


Every mention in that article talks about design for elite/LPGA/tournament-playing women.


Which is still interesting and cool to think about, but it also means that this is going to be a course of very similar scale to PLENTY of other courses. Nick notes a conversation about Cypress Point a couple posts above... it seems to me that there's a good chance this course tips out longer than Cypress does.


lol-good catch

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Long overdue in the GCA field
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2021, 10:28:04 AM »

My main focus on designing a course for women would be to emphasize their ability to hit the ball straight.  Lots of women can hit the ball on a string into a ten- or twenty-yard area.  If you designed a course around that ability, even if it was short, I think it would be pretty challenging for the boys . . . especially if the fairways doglegged at distances suited to women, and guys had to hit over the corner to a tight landing area in order to cash in on their advantage in strength.

Hi Tom,

Previous studies have shown that women tend to be less proficient on short shots around the green.  At least that is true for professional level players in each sport.  A quick perusal of articles on the Internet promotes the idea that women, in general, spend less time practicing their short games.  Here's one representative article from 2010:

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/putting-matthew-rudy

Theoretically, would your ideal women's course feature less challenging green complexes?  Might you shy away from the deep greenside bunker, or a particularly sloped or undulating green?  How about a green perched above the fairway, with short grass all around?

Similarly, I'm curious about how you would use fairway sand hazards.  To create interest for all levels of golfers, it seems there should be some bunkers where a carry of as little as 100 yards provides challenge and a reward for the elderly players.

My opinion is these types of challenges should not be minimized, but perhaps the physical strength of the players needs to be considered.  In addition to challenge and intrigue, contoured green complexes often add beauty to the course.


Thank you for your time, I'll take my answer off the air.


John:


I promise we will have this conversation one day soon, but not here . . . the things I think one should do to make the game more friendly to ladies are not things I want to share with everyone before I get a chance to try them out.


As Nick Schreiber alludes, one of the problems with this approach is that many women reject the whole idea as "sexist" somehow.  They hate the idea that a golf course architect might pander to them by designing something that actually fits the way they play [which is also the way most seniors and juniors play].  And I DO understand that there is a pretty big gap between the golf games of Lexi Thompson and my late mother -- no different than the gap between Brooks Koepka and you and your dad.  So, to fit 2021 political correctness, it seems like I will have to talk in code about the whole thing, much like we can't talk about ladies' tees even though those forward tees are 90% for ladies.


The first most important thing would be that the course would tip out at not much over 6000 yards.  By throwing away the back tees entirely, we can focus on accuracy over length, and not pander to the young wild hitters of today -- to borrow from another thread, not give them 65 yards of safety to drive the ball, and see if bombing away really works best for them over gearing down to keep the ball in play more.  Trying to accomplish that while minimizing lost balls will not be easy, but I think it can be done in the right setting.


One other thing from your post:  I think the fact that most elite women golfers don't have such great short games is a function of the courses they play.  They almost never play on courses where a really great short game is a necessity, like it is for the golf professional at Crystal Downs.  Plus, as you know, some of my most difficult greens can actually be much easier if you think outside the box and know how to use the slopes around the greens.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Long overdue in the GCA field
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2021, 10:32:19 AM »
I'm not alone in not wanting diminishing skills punished logarithmically.

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Long overdue in the GCA field
« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2021, 11:14:03 AM »
[[size=78%]quote author=Tom_Doak link=topic=70327.msg1690224#msg1690224 date=1634854724][/size]
[The same is true for any LPGA pro.  They are going to have the same perspective as a 5-handicap man would, except they are way more consistent.]



You didn’t mean this the way it read, I hope.


The 5-handicap man is bleeding out before they even tee off. That’s not true for the LPGA Pro.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Long overdue in the GCA field
« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2021, 11:37:34 AM »
When you marry a woman 25 years your junior you lose the right to tell other women what to do.

Bill Seitz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Long overdue in the GCA field
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2021, 12:15:40 PM »
I went through the thread, and maybe aside from one post that seemed to indicate a difference based on what each gender chooses to emphasize while practicing, I haven't seen anyone really define what differentiates women's golf from men's golf, other than things almost entirely related to swing speed.  Is there anything more to it than that?  I guess one way to approach it would be what differentiates a male 5 handicap from a female 5 handicap.  My guess is the answer is 1) length off the tee (somewhat mitigated by playing different tees), 2) swing speed that affects spin, and 3) swing speed that affects accuracy.  So then how does a course designed for women differ from simply playing up a set of tees or two?  Open approaches to bounce the ball in?  More back and side stops on and around greens to allow the player to feed the ball to the hole instead of flying it there?  Narrower fairways?  Fewer elevated greens?  I think the overarching concept is interesting, but I'm struggling to understand how it would be a big departure from what already exists even theoretically, let alone practically.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Long overdue in the GCA field
« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2021, 12:34:43 PM »
Along the lines of Bill's last comment, I'm also curious what the primary differentiators are, other than ones based in messaging or club culture?

It would seem there is a whole gaggle of older Golden Age courses that tip out at 6200-6300 yards that would be perfect for women in top notch events!  The Inverness Club sure seemed to be a terrific venue and setup for the recent Solheim Cup...

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Long overdue in the GCA field
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2021, 01:29:36 PM »
 8)


I'm not buying in that they can build a great course that will be anything different than many we already enjoy.But I know it's a way for DeChambeau to cash in on his notoriety and perhaps do something he will enjoy.


Remember this is a guy who played as a reinstated amateur .....after winning a tour event

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Long overdue in the GCA field
« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2021, 01:32:17 PM »
Instead of admitting that equipment has made almost all golf courses to short for the top men, he seems to want to make a course where the women can also bomb and gouge it. He talks about allowing the women to get their wedge shots to "dance" like the men's wedge shots do. How's he going to do that? Feed them steroids and send them to the gym?  ???

He also wants a significant number of LPGA players to relocate to Harlingen, TX. I've got news for him. TPC Sawgrass is 25 miles from Jacksonville, FL, but Harlingen, TX is 250 miles from San Antonio, TX.

The guy is just blowing smoke, and it is no wonder the LPGA didn't get back to golf.com on this.

Good luck to Tom to get a chance to ace out this blowhard.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Paul Stephenson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Long overdue in the GCA field
« Reply #36 on: October 22, 2021, 01:58:33 PM »
This is one of those instances where the solution is too obvious for anybody to notice - particularly here, a Treehouse full of lunatic intellectuals . . . . certainly divided ideologically in some ways, but respect for the history of this game is strong connective tissue.


That is putting aside brother Brains Goodale, who during one of our many Scotch enhanced debates on all things all things, never wavered from his breathtakingly heretic spew that architectural pedigree, original strategic intent or artistic decision are subject to revision at any time, provided the membership agrees it is an improvement.


When I asked him if someone might be allowed to "improve" an Auguste Rodin sculpture, I recall that quick sniff - when he was about to plunge in the dagger - "If you can find anyone better than Rodin, qualified to rethink his art, by all means. Charles Blair Macdonald was not Rodin."


Now, here is the point:


Since Lido is being recreated, originally suggested by me and the Great Bahto, it is time to move the fickle finger of virtue signalling away from "Toxic Masculinity" - and something catering to the fairer sex.


Putting aside scowling, short-haired ladies in sandals, if we do not hook my daughter and her friends on our game, we're fucked. We have the water issue on another thread, but if only a small percentage of women play golf, you're going to lose an ungodly amount of political power.


Why the USGA has not gone whole hog in donating clubs and  advocating for course construction in "underserved areas" - or worked to help high schools to field a team - is self-destructive insanity. There is so many empty areas in the inner city, all you need is a few rudimentary mini-tracks to give those kids something to do  . . . . . but, that is not the point of this birdwalk.


Look, I like Brandel, he's articulate and fairly fearless . . . . but his name is not going to move the needle a micron, unless he designs a course with Jan Stephenson. But this grasping at straws . . . . .


Remember, Lido is the Holy Grail . . . and it was.


But what about recreating (RIP) Women's National GC in Glen Head? Hmmm, you have the history angle - Dev Emmett, with a redo by RAYNOR (not CB, don't lie) . . . . you think that might attract some attention? A golf club, built for women . . . and get everybody big shit LPGA pro to join (or give them a membership and locker) and voila! . . . . . you've got a destination for women, just like Bandon is set up (really) as a full rip boy's retreat.


Imagine a truncated sized Bandon for girls.


Lavender soap, morning Mimosa's, oil massages, a Redan an Alps . . . . a Channel Hole. I cannot imagine something more fun for aging seniors like me, truth be told.




Oh, FFS, Gib.  You are a broken record.


FYI, there still exists to this day a Ladies' Golf Club of Toronto, designed by one Stanley Thompson.  I walked it thirty years ago, and the thought has been percolating in my head ever since.  It was hard to think of how to rate it, because it was perfectly suited to one demographic and ill suited to another, but it was very well done.  They even allow men to play . . . if accompanied by a member!


They have a restricted Men's Membership now.  My dentist is a member.


Is LPGA National in Daytona just an LPGA course in name only?

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Long overdue in the GCA field
« Reply #37 on: October 22, 2021, 03:43:42 PM »
I would love if it was a women's only golf club.   

Men and women are different and it is fine that both should have places for themselves.  Tired of the political correctness and want women to have their places just as much as men have their places.  It is ok that I can never play a golf course.  I have survived much worse ...... and yes, I know I am biased.


And Tom, I can think of really cool things you could do to make a women's golf course more interesting.  Accuracy is just one thing.  One instance would be very large greens with wild contours, making the short game a lot more interesting.  I think women have the ability to accept wild greens more than men.  Rarely will you hear a women complain about fairness on a golf course.  Meanwhile, men will complain when a wild feature hurts their score and results in an "unfair" result.  Just look at the St. Andrews Ladies Putting Club.  Also, women are much more receptive to playing scramble formats, which opens up other possibilities.  I hope you get the chance someday to build this type of course.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2021, 03:53:58 PM by Michael George »
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Long overdue in the GCA field
« Reply #38 on: October 22, 2021, 06:12:40 PM »
I would love if it was a women's only golf club.   

Men and women are different and it is fine that both should have places for themselves.  Tired of the political correctness and want women to have their places just as much as men have their places.  It is ok that I can never play a golf course.  I have survived much worse ...... and yes, I know I am biased.


And Tom, I can think of really cool things you could do to make a women's golf course more interesting.  Accuracy is just one thing.  One instance would be very large greens with wild contours, making the short game a lot more interesting.  I think women have the ability to accept wild greens more than men.  Rarely will you hear a women complain about fairness on a golf course.  Meanwhile, men will complain when a wild feature hurts their score and results in an "unfair" result.  Just look at the St. Andrews Ladies Putting Club.  Also, women are much more receptive to playing scramble formats, which opens up other possibilities.  I hope you get the chance someday to build this type of course.


Until your post, I never thought about it before, but my wife has never used the term "unfair". There are courses that she did not enjoy because the bunkering was too penal (Wailea Gold and Nairn) and holes that she did not like (The Pit) and greens that she thought were not enjoyable (Old Mac). But I have never heard her use the term "Unfair". Probably because she just loves golf with all of its challenges and full acceptance that her score is her score.


Ira

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Long overdue in the GCA field
« Reply #39 on: October 22, 2021, 07:51:07 PM »
I always get a headache when I try to think through the "ladies course" concept.  And I come back to the same thing.  All golfers, not just women or seniors or juniors have their own individual games and they evolve over time.  Now, I can see designing a course towards the elements of the womens' game that stand out but I don't know that I would call it a course designed for ladies...The ladies I know expect to play as they play and I don't recall any ever asking for a special ladies course.  JMO
Think about this...says alot...   https://www.tiktok.com/@bjswoager/video/7020958072210296070?_d=secCgYIASAHKAESPgo8IYnrF5lczdKfeOsVMtloFJRo3t4X13T7wwRv%2BDIsxBK%2BP9Vl4ZlcMX7W03Yg57QB5%2B1w%2BZoiozAfJtt8GgA%3D&checksum=c786f764fc0b2c552388f089303e96f59cabbe6092263f3dc94302ee32366654&clips_cover_ab=v0&enable_clips=1&language=en&preview_pb=0&sec_user_id=MS4wLjABAAAAZfvxN96cozm8DNOltMgl_vZWSX3Izhj7QxGgUmyfjfFzvp_oAES7FE2YoAG7g7Vk&share_app_id=1233&share_item_id=7020958072210296070&share_link_id=2E4541C3-26C7-4D26-8239-7566D4D76D34&source=h5_m&timestamp=1634873605&tt_from=sms&u_code=d1cb63jjc8e054&user_id=6586287847757348869&utm_campaign=client_share&utm_medium=ios&utm_source=sms&_r=1
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Long overdue in the GCA field
« Reply #40 on: October 23, 2021, 08:33:32 AM »
This is all about marketing.  The ladies seem to do just fine when they play at Pebble Beach or Oakmont or Pinehurst #2,… and relish every chance they get to play these great golf courses.  A golf course is a golf course.  Does anyone think the first links courses favored one sex over the other?? 

I played the other day with a couple and the woman played farther back then the male.  She was a better golfer and hit it farther. 

Last I checked the longest female players on the LPGA tour hit it close to 300 yards and some of the shorter ones less than 250.  Good luck setting up your gender specific design to accommodate everyone.

If there is anything the game might need is courses that are more fun for a wider range of abilities.  The average golfer (male or female) is just trying to make solid contact and play the same ball for the entire hole.  Maybe I am getting more biased about this having worked on several public access courses of late and watching the level of golfers who mostly play there.  The game is too hard and takes too long for most. 
« Last Edit: October 23, 2021, 08:35:07 AM by Mark_Fine »

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Long overdue in the GCA field
« Reply #41 on: October 23, 2021, 08:39:36 AM »
Does anyone think the first links courses favored one sex over the other?? 


In the 17th century?! Unequivocally yes.


Why would I read any further after that statement?
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Long overdue in the GCA field
« Reply #42 on: October 23, 2021, 08:44:59 AM »
If you want to level the playing field for men and women, old and young, scratch golfers and high handicaps … just build crazy greens. In my experience, no design element equalizes scores/ability better than crazy greens. For example, Cape Arundel at only 6,000ish yards and very little trouble off the tee seems like it would be a pushover for the very good player. And is eminently playable for the beginner. But the top player isn’t likely to go all that low because the greens have so much movement and mounds and falloffs. And the beginner isn’t likely to post a terrible score, because tee to green isn’t super difficult.


I found the greens to be almost comically mounded and roller-coastery, and I grew tired of it after a while. But in terms of design to bring players of all ability closer together, that’s the most effective I’ve seen.

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Long overdue in the GCA field
« Reply #43 on: October 23, 2021, 09:14:31 AM »
Augie Piza has always been an outside the box thinker, so this doesn't surprise me.


He's the only person I know to turn up at a major trade show (GIS) without a hotel reservation but with a TV film crew!
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Long overdue in the GCA field
« Reply #44 on: October 23, 2021, 09:20:41 AM »
Educate me Kyle. I am talking about the architecture vs what was allowed.  Just because one says a course is only for men or women means nothing when it comes to the design.  We need to get away from this for designating tees as well. 
« Last Edit: October 23, 2021, 09:22:49 AM by Mark_Fine »

Dave McCollum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Long overdue in the GCA field
« Reply #45 on: October 23, 2021, 10:43:51 AM »
At our course the women's twilight league is full every week.  They take up the entire course, even though they are playing nine hole matches.  I wouldn't have thought the course would be particularly friendly to women at 5172 yards.  They do play two of the longer par 4's as par 5's to a par of 74.  Personally, I think our popularity with women it is more about club culture than architectural features.  They get that golf is social activity and have a great time playing, eating, and enjoying a few glasses of wine. The same probably goes for our junior program which this year had over 400 kids:  it's the culture, not the course.             

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Long overdue in the GCA field
« Reply #46 on: October 23, 2021, 10:55:47 AM »
The only reason women may need fewer hazards and simpler greens is because the play by the rules and putt everything out. Cheating is the quickest solution to combat unfairness.

Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Long overdue in the GCA field
« Reply #47 on: October 23, 2021, 11:05:46 AM »
So I just finished reading through this. Quite interesting that a bunch of folks with XY chromosomes opined, but I didn't immediately notice anyone with a pair XX chromosomes chiming in - that may have added even more to this discussion.


I'm confident Brandel & Agustin Piza will do a fabulous job designing the course (now I feel myself channeling JK - which I think is good)   BUT :

If this was my project to develop and operate (meaning my money) I think I would:

1. Have an LPGA player, a local woman PGA Club professional and a locally known good woman amateur player as part of my course design team since they just may see things my male designers don't to design to the target market

2. I'd have hospitality professionals part of my team - they know F&B, spa/health and other services the target market would prefer - not me.

3. A marketing firm to do a market study to see if the golf & hospitality operation makes good business since (is there local competition ?) so the bank will lend the team some money to construct the vision.

As for my own simple look at golf for women, I can only use the examples that I've seen: my spouse, sister-in-law and daughter.  Even though our daughter played collegiate field hockey, her swing speed isn't even at a male senior players speed, so aerial carry over obstructions and hazards is an issue - anything over 50 yards of carry presents an issue for a lost ball and slow play.

Next is the height of rough - slow club speed impedes the ability to get the ball back into play from an errant shot.  My suggestion would be to keep the rough at as low a height as possible, so an errant shot can be advanced back into play.  Fairway and step cut grass is usually one variety while rough will usually be another grass type - so choice of grassing variety for the rough is critical - again Brandel/Agustin (or TD if this was his job) will be this correct.

Sand & sand traps - make sure the target market can get out in 1 shot. Frankly I would think about grass bunkers more than sand ones, since the slower swing speed can get the ball out of a grass bunker if the grass isn't too tall easier than out of the sand.

Lastly - As Alice Dye had said - " Women want a wedge/short iron par 3" - design one in.

BK

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Long overdue in the GCA field
« Reply #48 on: October 23, 2021, 12:13:28 PM »
They should be careful which LPGA tour pro they choose to work with.  If they pick someone who is like Marion Hollins they might end up with holes like the 16th at Cypress Point :)

No one is going to convince me that courses should be designed strickly for men or women. Distance and forced carries are the key denominators and generally multiple teeing locations can address this.  Furthermore, if the ground game is in play on most all of the holes, this presents more options for a much wider range of abilities.  This is not rocket science. 

When I start telling my wife who is a 35 handicapper that she shouldn’t play The Old Course at St. Andrews during our trip next year because it wasn’t really designed for women, that is when I will need two hotel rooms. :(

Peter Pallotta

Re: Long overdue in the GCA field
« Reply #49 on: October 23, 2021, 01:13:24 PM »
As others have noted, for many people the club is as important as the course in  fostering the overall experience. I have no reason to doubt the boys will handle the architecture just fine, but that's just one part of the equation. And if it's a 'players club' they're envisioning, they've already 'excluded' most golfers, women or men.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2021, 01:17:34 PM by Peter Pallotta »

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