[Steve Lapper]

https://golf.com/travel/brandel-chamblee-plans-golf-course-women-texas/


It's about time, that this differentiation finds its way into world of golf course architecture. Brandel is a friend and no matter what you think of him as a commentator, he is highly intelligent and IMO, spot on here. Brandel is a relative newcomer to the field of course architecture, yet his partner Augstin Piza is well-established and international.

Why am I posting this? I believe a course(s) designed with the ladies game in in mind is long overdue. As Josh Sens article so aptly describes, addressing the women's game isn't just "pushing tees around" or another "after-thought adjustment." It's something so few other architects or even clubs with great existing courses have successfully attempted. Read it and discuss.

[Garland Bayley]

https://golf.com/travel/brandel-chamblee-plans-golf-course-women-texas/


It's about time, that this differentiation finds its way into world of golf course architecture. Brandel is a friend and no matter what you think of him as a commentator, he is highly intelligent and IMO, spot on here. Brandel is a relative newcomer to the field of course architecture, yet his partner Augstin Piza is well-established and international.

Why am I posting this? I believe a course(s) designed with the ladies game in in mind is long overdue. As Josh Sens article so aptly describes, addressing the women's game isn't just "pushing tees around" or another "after-thought adjustment." It's something so few other architects or even clubs with great existing courses have successfully attempted. Read it and discuss.

So where are the female golfers involved in this project? Gil had Amy. Who do they have? Or is this just more male chauvinism?

[Steve Lapper]

I'm told, like the author said, that they are in talks with several and it's premature to name anyone just yet.

[Mark Smolens]

Although they are no longer with us, I'd hazard to say that Mr. Dye and his bride would very much dispute that his/their designs did not take into consideration the women's game. I see, for example, the placement of tees and hazards at TPC Sawgrass as a prime example of a course that players that do not carry the ball in the air a long way are still able to get around the course in fine fashion so long as they are playing the correct tee boxes for their game (which were installed in the first place and were not an afterthought)

[Tom_Doak]

Aw, crap, that's one of the bucket-list projects I've had on my radar for years.  I've tried to sell it to two different clients so far, without success.  Imagine Bandon Dunes with a course that's geared more toward women!


I think there is a lot of potential to build something that's great but very different with this goal.


Well, hopefully I will get to go second, and kick Brandel's butt. 

[jeffwarne]

Aw, crap, that's one of the bucket-list projects I've had on my radar for years.  I've tried to sell it to two different clients so far, without success.  Imagine Bandon Dunes with a course that's geared more toward women!


I think there is a lot of potential to build something that's great but very different with this goal.


Well, hopefully I will get to go second, and kick Brandel's butt. 

I think we both know someone who would be a good candidate.
Of course she hits it farther than both of us...

[Tom_Doak]

Aw, crap, that's one of the bucket-list projects I've had on my radar for years.  I've tried to sell it to two different clients so far, without success.  Imagine Bandon Dunes with a course that's geared more toward women!


I think there is a lot of potential to build something that's great but very different with this goal.


Well, hopefully I will get to go second, and kick Brandel's butt. 

I think we both know someone who would be a good candidate.
Of course she hits it farther than both of us...

Angela is both a good golfer and a promising designer.  There is no reason to confine her to designing courses for women, any more than there is a reason to confine me to designing courses for men.  [The same is true for any LPGA pro.  They are going to have the same perspective as a 5-handicap man would, except they are way more consistent.]


My main focus on designing a course for women would be to emphasize their ability to hit the ball straight.  Lots of women can hit the ball on a string into a ten- or twenty-yard area.  If you designed a course around that ability, even if it was short, I think it would be pretty challenging for the boys . . . especially if the fairways doglegged at distances suited to women, and guys had to hit over the corner to a tight landing area in order to cash in on their advantage in strength.

[Sean_A]

Aw, crap, that's one of the bucket-list projects I've had on my radar for years.  I've tried to sell it to two different clients so far, without success.  Imagine Bandon Dunes with a course that's geared more toward women!


I think there is a lot of potential to build something that's great but very different with this goal.


Well, hopefully I will get to go second, and kick Brandel's butt. 

I think we both know someone who would be a good candidate.
Of course she hits it farther than both of us...

Angela is both a good golfer and a promising designer.  There is no reason to confine her to designing courses for women, any more than there is a reason to confine me to designing courses for men.  [The same is true for any LPGA pro.  They are going to have the same perspective as a 5-handicap man would, except they are way more consistent.]


My main focus on designing a course for women would be to emphasize their ability to hit the ball straight.  Lots of women can hit the ball on a string into a ten- or twenty-yard area.  If you designed a course around that ability, even if it was short, I think it would be pretty challenging for the boys . . . especially if the fairways doglegged at distances suited to women, and guys had to hit over the corner to a tight landing area in order to cash in on their advantage in strength.

Sounds like a description of Formby Ladies.

Ciao

[jeffwarne]

Aw, crap, that's one of the bucket-list projects I've had on my radar for years.  I've tried to sell it to two different clients so far, without success.  Imagine Bandon Dunes with a course that's geared more toward women!


I think there is a lot of potential to build something that's great but very different with this goal.


Well, hopefully I will get to go second, and kick Brandel's butt. 

I think we both know someone who would be a good candidate.
Of course she hits it farther than both of us...

Angela is both a good golfer and a promising designer.  There is no reason to confine her to designing courses for women, any more than there is a reason to confine me to designing courses for men.  [The same is true for any LPGA pro.  They are going to have the same perspective as a 5-handicap man would, except they are way more consistent.]

I am in no way suggesting she be confined to designing courses for any one sex, quite the opposite.
And I'm certainly not suggesting a man couldn't do an outstanding job.


Just like in my field many men teach women, and many women teach men-I always recommend they go to the teacher who best suits their personality and has a proven(or promising) track record.
That said, if all things are equal, quite a often a woman is a better fit, or a better example, for certain female students or personalities(both men and women).
There could be an argument for that in this case. (assuming all candidates are talented, experienced and promising)
Given her talents, I'd say Chamblee, or any other architect or developer, would do well to consider enlisting her services-especially one building a course geared towards women(not just for her talents in GCA, but for the obvious the message it would send to potential female resort guests as well as young girls aspiring to be in the golf business, or any business)

[Carl Rogers]

TD: One of the first observations I had about Riverfront (many years ago) was the interesting and challenging tee shots of the 4 par 3's from the most forward tees.

[Gib_Papazian]

This is one of those instances where the solution is too obvious for anybody to notice - particularly here, a Treehouse full of lunatic intellectuals . . . . certainly divided ideologically in some ways, but respect for the history of this game is strong connective tissue.


That is putting aside brother Brains Goodale, who during one of our many Scotch enhanced debates on all things all things, never wavered from his breathtakingly heretic spew that architectural pedigree, original strategic intent or artistic decision are subject to revision at any time, provided the membership agrees it is an improvement.


When I asked him if someone might be allowed to "improve" an Auguste Rodin sculpture, I recall that quick sniff - when he was about to plunge in the dagger - "If you can find anyone better than Rodin, qualified to rethink his art, by all means. Charles Blair Macdonald was not Rodin."


Now, here is the point:


Since Lido is being recreated, originally suggested by me and the Great Bahto, it is time to move the fickle finger of virtue signalling away from "Toxic Masculinity" - and something catering to the fairer sex.


Putting aside scowling, short-haired ladies in sandals, if we do not hook my daughter and her friends on our game, we're fucked. We have the water issue on another thread, but if only a small percentage of women play golf, you're going to lose an ungodly amount of political power.


Why the USGA has not gone whole hog in donating clubs and  advocating for course construction in "underserved areas" - or worked to help high schools to field a team - is self-destructive insanity. There is so many empty areas in the inner city, all you need is a few rudimentary mini-tracks to give those kids something to do  . . . . . but, that is not the point of this birdwalk.


Look, I like Brandel, he's articulate and fairly fearless . . . . but his name is not going to move the needle a micron, unless he designs a course with Jan Stephenson. But this grasping at straws . . . . .


Remember, Lido is the Holy Grail . . . and it was.


But what about recreating (RIP) Women's National GC in Glen Head? Hmmm, you have the history angle - Dev Emmett, with a redo by RAYNOR (not CB, don't lie) . . . . you think that might attract some attention? A golf club, built for women . . . and get everybody big shit LPGA pro to join (or give them a membership and locker) and voila! . . . . . you've got a destination for women, just like Bandon is set up (really) as a full rip boy's retreat.


Imagine a truncated sized Bandon for girls.


Lavender soap, morning Mimosa's, oil massages, a Redan an Alps . . . . a Channel Hole. I cannot imagine something more fun for aging seniors like me, truth be told.

[jeffwarne]

This is one of those instances where the solution is too obvious for anybody to notice - particularly here, a Treehouse full of lunatic intellectuals . . . . certainly divided ideologically in some ways, but respect for the history of this game is strong connective tissue.


That is putting aside brother Brains Goodale, who during one of our many Scotch enhanced debates on all things all things, never wavered from his breathtakingly heretic spew that architectural pedigree, original strategic intent or artistic decision are subject to revision at any time, provided the membership agrees it is an improvement.


When I asked him if someone might be allowed to "improve" an Auguste Rodin sculpture, I recall that quick sniff - when he was about to plunge in the dagger - "If you can find anyone better than Rodin, qualified to rethink his art, by all means. Charles Blair Macdonald was not Rodin."


Now, here is the point:


Since Lido is being recreated, originally suggested by me and the Great Bahto, it is time to move the fickle finger of virtue signalling away from "Toxic Masculinity" - and something catering to the fairer sex.


Putting aside scowling, short-haired ladies in sandals, if we do not hook my daughter and her friends on our game, we're fucked. We have the water issue on another thread, but if only a small percentage of women play golf, you're going to lose an ungodly amount of political power.


Why the USGA has not gone whole hog in donating clubs and  advocating for course construction in "underserved areas" - or worked to help high schools to field a team - is self-destructive insanity. There is so many empty areas in the inner city, all you need is a few rudimentary mini-tracks to give those kids something to do  . . . . . but, that is not the point of this birdwalk.


Look, I like Brandel, he's articulate and fairly fearless . . . . but his name is not going to move the needle a micron, unless he designs a course with Jan Stephenson. But this grasping at straws . . . . .


Remember, Lido is the Holy Grail . . . and it was.


But what about recreating (RIP) Women's National GC in Glen Head? Hmmm, you have the history angle - Dev Emmett, with a redo by RAYNOR (not CB, don't lie) . . . . you think that might attract some attention? A golf club, built for women . . . and get everybody big shit LPGA pro to join (or give them a membership and locker) and voila! . . . . . you've got a destination for women, just like Bandon is set up (really) as a full rip boy's retreat.


Imagine a truncated sized Bandon for girls.


Lavender soap, morning Mimosa's, oil massages, a Redan an Alps . . . . a Channel Hole. I cannot imagine something more fun for aging seniors like me, truth be told.

yep, and selfishly, Glen Head has treated me quite well over the years, though I must say I can't say the current design is particularly suited to women.

[Joel_Stewart]

I tried to get Amy Alcott to do a women's course in Palm Springs area a few years ago but she didn't have the energy to put it together. She agreed that the desert would be an ideal spot and with any thought could be better than the all male Plantation Club. Amy is super nice and thought it should be women members only but men could play which detracts from the ambiance.


I'm doubt Mike Keiser has ever thought about a women's course at Bandon? I do know that the number of women that are going to Bandon every year is increasing. Seems like Sand Valley would be a better choice.

[mike_malone]

Do you think the variability in the women’s game is wider than the men’s? This makes it tough to design a course. I’m not certain of this but guess it’s true.

[archie_struthers]

 


Kind of  hard  getting my arms around this one , and it seems a little out of bounds to build a "womens" golf cub when many of them are better than me. So if you are doing it for the LPGA to give them a special home it seems like it might work in that respect. But otherwise why?  Let everyone play wherever fits them and their game.

[Tom_Doak]

This is one of those instances where the solution is too obvious for anybody to notice - particularly here, a Treehouse full of lunatic intellectuals . . . . certainly divided ideologically in some ways, but respect for the history of this game is strong connective tissue.


That is putting aside brother Brains Goodale, who during one of our many Scotch enhanced debates on all things all things, never wavered from his breathtakingly heretic spew that architectural pedigree, original strategic intent or artistic decision are subject to revision at any time, provided the membership agrees it is an improvement.


When I asked him if someone might be allowed to "improve" an Auguste Rodin sculpture, I recall that quick sniff - when he was about to plunge in the dagger - "If you can find anyone better than Rodin, qualified to rethink his art, by all means. Charles Blair Macdonald was not Rodin."


Now, here is the point:


Since Lido is being recreated, originally suggested by me and the Great Bahto, it is time to move the fickle finger of virtue signalling away from "Toxic Masculinity" - and something catering to the fairer sex.


Putting aside scowling, short-haired ladies in sandals, if we do not hook my daughter and her friends on our game, we're fucked. We have the water issue on another thread, but if only a small percentage of women play golf, you're going to lose an ungodly amount of political power.


Why the USGA has not gone whole hog in donating clubs and  advocating for course construction in "underserved areas" - or worked to help high schools to field a team - is self-destructive insanity. There is so many empty areas in the inner city, all you need is a few rudimentary mini-tracks to give those kids something to do  . . . . . but, that is not the point of this birdwalk.


Look, I like Brandel, he's articulate and fairly fearless . . . . but his name is not going to move the needle a micron, unless he designs a course with Jan Stephenson. But this grasping at straws . . . . .


Remember, Lido is the Holy Grail . . . and it was.


But what about recreating (RIP) Women's National GC in Glen Head? Hmmm, you have the history angle - Dev Emmett, with a redo by RAYNOR (not CB, don't lie) . . . . you think that might attract some attention? A golf club, built for women . . . and get everybody big shit LPGA pro to join (or give them a membership and locker) and voila! . . . . . you've got a destination for women, just like Bandon is set up (really) as a full rip boy's retreat.


Imagine a truncated sized Bandon for girls.


Lavender soap, morning Mimosa's, oil massages, a Redan an Alps . . . . a Channel Hole. I cannot imagine something more fun for aging seniors like me, truth be told.

Oh, FFS, Gib.  You are a broken record.


FYI, there still exists to this day a Ladies' Golf Club of Toronto, designed by one Stanley Thompson.  I walked it thirty years ago, and the thought has been percolating in my head ever since.  It was hard to think of how to rate it, because it was perfectly suited to one demographic and ill suited to another, but it was very well done.  They even allow men to play . . . if accompanied by a member!

[Peter Pallotta]

My sister lives right next door to the Ladies Club of Toronto, though sadly she is neither a member nor a golfer. Stanley Thomson also designed the Thornhill Country Club that sits almost 'across the street' as well as the nearby Uplands not many blocks away (since the 80s a 9-holer, and now under the golfnorth umbrella). Both Thornhill and Ladies are on Yonge Street, north of Toronto; when I was a boy, it seemed to take forever to get from downtown up to the totally separate town of Thornhill; today the subway ride up and then a short bus/cab seems like a snap, and all the towns blend together. Somehow it all feels quite "English" to me, i.e. one architect coming to a lovely town and 'laying out' three 18 hole courses in quick succession, all around 1922 -- with a dedicated ladies course part of the mix.

[Jeff Schley]

While a women's course in theory could be successful as they would have first movers advantage, nothing exists in the USA in name or marketing for sure. While I'm not sure women would even want to have a course their gender alone could be members, you would only need a couple hundred.
If built I think this could work at a high end resort as part of a larger group. Thinking out loud.

• Public and at a resort that would be a destination.
• Have a HUGE Spa, ladies can incorporate this into a vacation.
• Have weather such that a pool/water and sun are prevalent at least seasonally.

So I think it would be marketing first and foremost that is key, but we could say that about a lot of golf projects.

To test your thoughts on what would make a great women's course, think of a great classic course and take out the black and blue tees. Imagine you only had the red and white, maybe a yellow in between. Would it be a great ladies course to build today for a play ability standpoint? 


That only applies off the tee, but important. Principally you need less center line hazards and openings into the greens where you aren't required to carry your approach onto the green IMO.  This course I don't think would be successful if you don't appease the mid to high handicap ladies games, which are in many cases ground based.

[Steve Lapper]

Tom,


  Touche' ! I was hoping you had this kind of idea simmering in your mental quiver. FWIW, I think, with the right piece of land, you'd create something very special and unique.


  As a course owner, avid player and perpetual traveller, I truly think there exists a market for a designed-for-ladies course. Coupled with the right package of location (safe, warm climate and easily accessible), amenities (spa, good food, and some specialized gender-friendly extracurriculars), and marketing, such a ladies retreat would thrive in today's segmented markets. If the course was able to host a significant LPGA event and ultimately some meaningful endorsement from golf's insitutions, it would be a roaring success IMO.


  My wife and her friends now play as many rounds as we do and are always looking for 1-2 getaway warm-weather trips. They've tried Pinehurst, Streamsong, Sea Island, et.al. and enjoyed all, but found considerable gender-related flaws at all of them. Their golf-pack isn't any outlier. Women's play is a large part of the growth curve in golf today. At a nearby prestigious club we are hoping to join in a few years, women's rounds currently outpace the men and continue to grow year-over-year.


  PS.... I think Brandel would be thrilled to know you'd be on his heels (and maybe* kick his butt). I'm quite certain his friendly foil, Eamon Lynch would revel in such a contest. I'd welcome trolling him on social media when that goes down.


Mayday,


   You might start looking in your backyard. Playing your otherwise-brilliant course a year ago with a very competent lady was an exercise in futility. She walked off on the back nine cursing the course for being anything other than women's friendly.


*most likely

[archie_struthers]

 


Steve , don't we have an example at Somerset Hills, a gorgeous but subtlety difficult golf course right in our backyard. Maybe its cause I'm so far from being "woke" that I don't get making Pine Valley accessible to more people of color and gender is good while creating a place that excludes men. The former is a long time coming the latter


Knowing you a bit I would surmise that you see the business model of a playable , beautiful venue as a need. Is that it?

[Tim Martin]

The rub here for me is the variety of amenities and non golf activities referenced to make such a venture successful. “Hey the Spa has a golf course too.”

[mike_malone]

Steve,


  I sure agree that Rolling Green is tough on women. Hanse is addressing this. It’s challenging for everyone.


 That’s where my comment on here came from.  It’s not just moving up tees. We need to address obstacles like valleys off of tees and carries over creeks.

[John Kirk]

My main focus on designing a course for women would be to emphasize their ability to hit the ball straight.  Lots of women can hit the ball on a string into a ten- or twenty-yard area.  If you designed a course around that ability, even if it was short, I think it would be pretty challenging for the boys . . . especially if the fairways doglegged at distances suited to women, and guys had to hit over the corner to a tight landing area in order to cash in on their advantage in strength.

Hi Tom,

Previous studies have shown that women tend to be less proficient on short shots around the green.  At least that is true for professional level players in each sport.  A quick perusal of articles on the Internet promotes the idea that women, in general, spend less time practicing their short games.  Here's one representative article from 2010:

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/putting-matthew-rudy

Theoretically, would your ideal women's course feature less challenging green complexes?  Might you shy away from the deep greenside bunker, or a particularly sloped or undulating green?  How about a green perched above the fairway, with short grass all around?

Similarly, I'm curious about how you would use fairway sand hazards.  To create interest for all levels of golfers, it seems there should be some bunkers where a carry of as little as 100 yards provides challenge and a reward for the elderly players.

My opinion is these types of challenges should not be minimized, but perhaps the physical strength of the players needs to be considered.  In addition to challenge and intrigue, contoured green complexes often add beauty to the course.


Thank you for your time, I'll take my answer off the air.

[Andrew Harvie]

Stanley Thompson did this 100 years ago, so not really that new

[Nick Schreiber]

I've enjoyed reading all the different points of view on this thread. As TFE said in this morning's newsletter: "For now, perhaps we should simply applaud Chamblee and Pizá for putting a spotlight on issues of gender in golf course design."

This subject is near and dear to my heart, as the mission of Old Barnwell is pretty simple: bring people together through golf. The execution of that simple mission is anything but! From the beginning stages, I've tried to envision how a golf club and its course could respect the traditions of golf without being beholden to some of its more outdated elements, creating an environment where members, regardless of gender or race or age, could feel comfortable and part of a community built around exceptional golf. And though I can pretend I know what others want, if there's one thing I've learned in this process, it's that the best way to learn is to ask others, shut up, and listen

Even that strategy has its obstacles. Very few people I've spoken with have the same opinion. But over time, themes have emerged that in retrospect seem relatively obvious. For example, a former female club champion at Cypress Point is one of many women golfers who have told me that they don't want a "women's course," they just want a club at which they don't feel excluded, or treated like second class citizens. A highly regarded female teaching pro who used to coach a Division I men's team echoed the sentiments of a lot of relatively new women golfers: hire female pros! Other recommendations include moving the first tee away from crowded areas to make beginners feel more comfortable, or simply stocking a pro shop with clothes that women actually want to wear.

In other words, if we're looking outside the pro game, I believe course design is just one element of a broader opportunity to make women a more central part of the sport. Obviously, I'm not an architect, which is why I'm so grateful to have Brian and Blake on board, and I'm hopeful future members of their team will represent different experiences in golf, as well. And though some might point out that I'm saying all of this on a forum that's highly focused on GCA, I'll only say that I also enjoy the conversations on these message boards about "experiences" and clubhouses and friendships formed through the game as much as I enjoy the photos and analysis of that green at Sitwell Park. I think it's all very much connected. Sorry for the novel-length post.

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