Has Lawsonia become "Overhyped?"

[Buck Wolter]

That's a selective quote -- go back and read again -- it was when to worry

Gotcha.  I blame the author. 

Fair

[Terry Lavin]

Pat,
    I've long thought that the separation between Chicago Golf and Lawsonia is only as significant as the maintenance budgets, volume of play, and mystique points. One could certainly argue Lawsonia is a far superior piece of property . Green complexes and bunkering are roughly equal.
    I use this comparison to ask the question: Is CGC overhyped? Or are both Lawsonia and CGC simply as good as it gets? Or just different animals with vastly different business models?

That’s a very intriguing analysis. I’ve never played Lawsonia but I have a hard time contemplating that it’s in the same league as CGC, which I’ve played dozens of times. It’s in my Top Ten I’ve played.


I’ll do what some would argue is implausible:  I’ll remain mute on this comparison until I play Lawsonia.

[PCCraig]

Is Ron Forse no longer consulting with Lawsonia?


Architecturally I think Lawsonia is the best golf course in Wisconsin, and I tell people that. So maybe I'm part of the problem.


I don't think this crew is referring to the clubhouse, lodging, etc.


The feedback was that they didn't dislike it, just that they were underwhelmed considering it is supposedly a top 25 public golf course. I suppose they expected more.


To me, the green complexes, bunkering, and land movement is extraordinary. Now that management has started (5-7 years ago) taking care of the course in a more consistent manner.


**BUT** perhaps it's too subtle on the first play or two if you are used to the maxamalism of Mammoth Dunes and Sand Valley??








Jack - I have a buddy who, when we pulled into Lawsonia for the first time 10+ years ago, exclaimed "holy shit this looks just like Chicago Golf!"

[J_ Crisham]

Pat,
    I've long thought that the separation between Chicago Golf and Lawsonia is only as significant as the maintenance budgets, volume of play, and mystique points. One could certainly argue Lawsonia is a far superior piece of property . Green complexes and bunkering are roughly equal.
    I use this comparison to ask the question: Is CGC overhyped? Or are both Lawsonia and CGC simply as good as it gets? Or just different animals with vastly different business models?

Terry,
    CGC is in my top 10 as well. Lawsonia is really good but the maintenance practices are inconsistent. I've never seen it as firm as it could/should be. We should get a group of guys from Bev and head up next Summer- happy to host our group at Blue Mound as well.


That’s a very intriguing analysis. I’ve never played Lawsonia but I have a hard time contemplating that it’s in the same league as CGC, which I’ve played dozens of times. It’s in my Top Ten I’ve played.


I’ll do what some would argue is implausible:  I’ll remain mute on this comparison until I play Lawsonia.

[Josh Woodward]

@PCCraig: Perhaps the most beneficial piece of information would be to hear what courses your friend(s) would consider to be in that "Top 25 Public Courses" list...that would probably provide a baseline for what type of "hype" they were expecting to experience at Lawsonia? There are so many details (e.g. price paid, playing partners, architectural features, strokes made, etc.) that go into our opinions that it becomes hard to evaluate these types of statements. Also, Ron Forse does deserve credit for his efforts to bring attention to the course many years ago. We talked for a while after I played it last month and I could tell he still had a lot of pride in knowing how special it was.


@Ian MacKenzie; @jeffwarney: I think you nailed part of the equation when speaking to the pricing and that is why it ended up at #2 for GOLF's "Top 100 Value Courses in the U.S." (which has previously been discussed at length on this site). I would be surprised if PCCraig's friends would say it was not a good value for the price paid. I personally believe the experience is outweighed by the cost, making it a tremendous value!


Throughout my time in Wisconsin this year, I've become a big fan of L&M. Having now seen Lawsonia, Spring Valley, and Wakonda I have come to appreciate and even enjoy the big bold features and blind tee shots. In the past I would've thought of it all as "too much" or even "unfair". I guess I can see how some people would feel a course like Lawsonia is overhyped, but I would definitely chalk it up to immaturity  and/or inexperience. I don't mean that in as much of a negative way that it may sound, I just mean that some of us need to remember what it was like before we were exposed to more and more great courses.


For those of you that haven't been able to play it yet, trust the opinions of those that have (many have posted about it) until you can form your own.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Is Ron Forse no longer consulting with Lawsonia?


Architecturally I think Lawsonia is the best golf course in Wisconsin, and I tell people that. So maybe I'm part of the problem.


I don't think this crew is referring to the clubhouse, lodging, etc.


The feedback was that they didn't dislike it, just that they were underwhelmed considering it is supposedly a top 25 public golf course. I suppose they expected more.


To me, the green complexes, bunkering, and land movement is extraordinary. Now that management has started (5-7 years ago) taking care of the course in a more consistent manner.


**BUT** perhaps it's too subtle on the first play or two if you are used to the maxamalism of Mammoth Dunes and Sand Valley??








Jack - I have a buddy who, when we pulled into Lawsonia for the first time 10+ years ago, exclaimed "holy shit this looks just like Chicago Golf!"
[/quote


Pat,


A buddy of mine (member at 5 top 100 courses) declared that, if Lawsonia were to be in Long Island and had a $2m+ maintenance budget, it would be top 50 in the world.


We heard that currrent Lawsonia budget was closer to $500k…in “wisconsin dollars”…

[Joel_Stewart]

Is Ron Forse no longer consulting with Lawsonia?

He is not. Oliphant golf management took over the management a few years ago and they thought they had more knowledge than Ron.

[Joel_Stewart]

Pat,
    I've long thought that the separation between Chicago Golf and Lawsonia is only as significant as the maintenance budgets, volume of play, and mystique points. One could certainly argue Lawsonia is a far superior piece of property . Green complexes and bunkering are roughly equal.
    I use this comparison to ask the question: Is CGC overhyped? Or are both Lawsonia and CGC simply as good as it gets? Or just different animals with vastly different business models?

I played both of these courses on back to back days last month. Fortunately I played Lawsonia first and yes they need added maintenance.   Yes I thought it was overrated. The first 3 holes start with doglegs right and to my memory there isn't one dogleg left.  The land formations are very cool but after a while they became redundant. I thought the front was way better than the back.


This was the second time I played CGC but the first was 20 years ago. Of the 800 or so courses I've played I would put it in my top 10. Almost every hole is a work of art. The greens are vastly superior to Lawsonia in terms of approach and interest. Chicago is one of those courses if invited you fly across the country. 

[Brett Meyer]

The first 3 holes start with doglegs right and to my memory there isn't one dogleg left. 

I think that the lack of doglegs left is the only real weakness of Lawsonia. The only kind-of dogleg left is the 16th.

[William_G]

"This past week a friend of mine texted me that his group of 12 left the course feeling it was "overhyped" primarily due to its high magazine rankings (23rd best public perhaps?)."

Pat,
I get the idea your going for here.
I love Lawsonia Links, yet any group gig that I may organize to visit there, some, a few but unlikely that all will my not share my love.
It's not really an objective thing, kind of like dating.
I think the toughest thing about golf courses in Chicago and Wisconsin is the limited golf season.
When you have scarcity of anything, it can fall into being overhyped.
Also the weather in that area can create inconsistency in the turf and all agronomy, which may then require more dollars than on hand to meet tourists expectations. (like Jack said)

Thank you

[David_Moorhead]

Overhyped? No.  Lost its hidden gem status?  Absolutely. 


It matches or exceeds the hype.  The movement of the holes over the open land and the green complexes are things the average public golfer can rarely experience.  Does it come close to matching Chicago Golf?  No, but I could see the argument that it is a poor man's Chicago Golf.


When I first played it ~20 years ago, no one but folks with a house in Green Lake seemed to know much about it.  That was true even 7-10 years ago.  Today, everyone seems to know about it.

[John Kavanaugh]

No, but I could see the argument that it is a poor man's Chicago Golf.

Problem is that poor men who travel to golf want to play something they have seen on TV. Or at the very least a resort that makes them feel not so poor for a day. The one time I played Lawsonia I saw no redeeming features to make me recommend it to my poor friends. They all got cool vibes, cheap chairs around wobbly tables, and local beers at home.

[jeffwarne]

No, but I could see the argument that it is a poor man's Chicago Golf.

Problem is that poor men who travel to golf want to play something they have seen on TV. Or at the very least a resort that makes them feel not so poor for a day. The one time I played Lawsonia I saw no redeeming features to make me recommend it to my poor friends. They all got cool vibes, cheap chairs around wobbly tables, and local beers at home.

Throw in a sign like this with $1.50 Buds and you can count me in. The TV crowd is bound to be elsewhere, coveting their felt goodie bags "included" in their $300 green fee.

[John Kavanaugh]

If you want a cheap lunch go play MPCC.

[jeffwarne]

If you want a cheap lunch go play MPCC.

If that's an invite I'm in.
RIP Sir Bob Huntley.


Palmetto is the king of the cheap lunch.

[John Kavanaugh]

Thanks for that tip. I'm sensing a pattern between overhyped courses and a cheap lunch.

[J_ Crisham]

Pat,
    I've long thought that the separation between Chicago Golf and Lawsonia is only as significant as the maintenance budgets, volume of play, and mystique points. One could certainly argue Lawsonia is a far superior piece of property . Green complexes and bunkering are roughly equal.
    I use this comparison to ask the question: Is CGC overhyped? Or are both Lawsonia and CGC simply as good as it gets? Or just different animals with vastly different business models?

I played both of these courses on back to back days last month. Fortunately I played Lawsonia first and yes they need added maintenance.   Yes I thought it was overrated. The first 3 holes start with doglegs right and to my memory there isn't one dogleg left.  The land formations are very cool but after a while they became redundant. I thought the front was way better than the back.


This was the second time I played CGC but the first was 20 years ago. Of the 800 or so courses I've played I would put it in my top 10. Almost every hole is a work of art. The greens are vastly superior to Lawsonia in terms of approach and interest. Chicago is one of those courses if invited you fly across the country.

Joel,
  It's interesting how 2 reasonable people can disagree on what defines a great golf course. I've played CGC many times over the last 25 years- I consider it to be world class- probably in my top 10-15 USA. Surprisingly, I also view it as the 2nd best course in Chicago. Sadly, I had to bail out of game  2 weeks ago due to a heavy patient load. Would I hop on a plane to play there? As a local, that's a tough call- if I had never played it I might. It doesn't have the same draw for me that CPC, Shinny ,or Fishers Island have. Those are course that I have hopped on a plane for. Maybe the off course views at these clubs impact my feelings ? I too have been blessed to play many course over my life - pre Covid I was approaching 1200 world wide. There are a few more I'd like to see- quite a few I'd like to return to. Lawsonia is one that I always find time for once a year. My take on Lawsonia  is the greens have some really good internal contouring and present a real challenge. Sadly they stimp at about 10 which is considerably less than the typical 12 plus at CGC. The conditioning is the difference. I'm not sure that I've ever seen it firm and fast at Lawsonia. At CGC it's always that way. It's pristine. The fescue is even perfect. The fact that the volume of play is near nonexistent certainly explains why you will never see a scar at CGC. I do believe your point about the doglegs is valid. It is repetitive. Would you agree that the flow of the property is superior at Lawsonia? I don't find anything dramatic about the CGC property but it works amazingly well. For me the sad reality is that the conditioning at Lawsonia is what it is and will always be that way. I do appreciate it for what it is but always wonder what it could be with an unlimited maintenance budget?

[John Kavanaugh]

Do properly hyped courses need more money thrown at them to meet the hype?

[J_ Crisham]

Do properly hyped courses need more money thrown at them to meet the hype?

John,
 If the money is spent on maintenance the improved conditioning will create any necessary hype. I get that you don't care for Lawsonia - thats fine. Blondes, brunetes, red heads..........

[Eric_Terhorst]

I have long been a bit of a cheerleader for the Links Course at Lawsonia.

Pat--Me too, after being introduced to it by members of this web site back in the mid-2000s.  I don't think it's "overhyped" or even "hyped" but I guess that depends on your definition of those concepts.  It was under-appreciated back then and is more widely appreciated now.  Seems to me its location, conveniently near the modern golf meccas in Wisconsin, now makes it a must-stop-while-you're-there.  I think Tom Doak's listing of it as a "Gourmet's Choice" in the last Confidential Guide, and his description of it as "an exhilarating venue for the game, and a wonderful example of how earthwork can sometimes be more appealing than Nature" is perfectly on point, and not overhype.


To mention just one of the features that JK misses in his dismissive comments on Lawsonia, which he's been trotting out every time Lawsonia comes up for at least 15 years :-), note that from hole #4 through #15 par is: 3,5,4,3,4,5,3,5,3,5,3,4.  Borrowing Doak's punctuation for several of these holes--!!  John dissing this course on the basis of one play, John--c'mon man!!


I played the Sand Valley courses and Lawsonia just last week--like you said, October is generally the best time to visit Green Lake.  Unfortunately, the region has had plenty of precipitation recently and Lawsonia was soft.  From the 6500yd white tees, it felt very long and the greens were slowish.  That's my only knock on Lawsonia--to really enjoy it, you should try to find it in a week that has been preceded by a few weeks of relatively dry weather.  If not you might be underwhelmed like your friends.


Meanwhile, the scale and thoughtfulness of the Sand Valley courses strikes me as impressive, fun and "exhilarating" too.  The prices are frightful.  Lawsonia doesn't try to compete with Sand Valley or Kohler and it shouldn't.  It just wants some of your money as you drive by.

[John Kavanaugh]

I have long been a bit of a cheerleader for the Links Course at Lawsonia.

To mention just one of the features that JK misses in his dismissive comments on Lawsonia, which he's been trotting out every time Lawsonia comes up for at least 15 years :-), note that from hole #4 through #15 par is: 3,5,4,3,4,5,3,5,3,5,3,4.  Borrowing Doak's punctuation for several of these holes--!!  John dissing this course on the basis of one play, John--c'mon man!!

Eric,

I played Lawsonia on a destination trip to Erin Hills which is only 74 miles away. Were you at Erin Hills with me? I don't like Lawsonia party because it is an exact replica of the course I am currently looking out at from my kitchen window in Indiana. It's just meh. It also would be great under fantasy budgets and unicorn weather.

[Bill Seitz]

Lawsonia is a terrific golf course and I think it stands up well against any of the top public golf courses that I've either seen quite a bit of or played.  What Lawsonia lacks is something the others have that puts it over the top.  That something may be different for all of the top publics, but they all have it.  It may be the setting.  It may be an association with a famous architect (I love L&M, but they're still under most radars).  It may host a PGA Tour event or major championships.  But they almost all have something Lawsonia lacks.


Golfweek has it 25th.  Digest has it 68th, so maybe Golfweek overhypes it, but Digest doesn't?  I'll take GWs top 25 and see if I can identify what Lawsonia lacks:


1) Pebble Beach - Ocean, PGA Tour, Majors.
2) Pac Dunes - Ocean, architect
3) Pinehurst 2 - Setting, architect, majors
4) Old Mac - Setting, architect
5) Straits - Big lake, architect, majors
6) Bandon Dunes - Ocean
7) Shadow Creek - Architect and Greens fees, I suppose (no one wants to pay $1,000 and walk off saying the course sucked).
  Kiawah - Ocean, architect, majors
9) Bethpage - Architect, majors
10) Bandon Trails - Setting, architect
11) Pasatiempo - Setting, architect
12) Sawgrass - PGA Tour, architect
13) Mammoth Dunes - Setting
14) Sand Valley - Setting, architect
15) Spyglass - Ocean, architect
16) Streamsong Red - Setting, architect
17) Gamble Sands - Haven't really seen it, but maybe setting?
18) Kapalua Plantation - Ocean, PGA Tour
19) Streamsong Black - Setting, maybe architect to an extent
20) Manele - Ocean
21) Arcadia Bluff - Big Lake
22) Harbour Town - PGA Tour, architect(s)
23) Streamsong Blue - Setting, architect
24) Chambers Bay - Ocean, major championship
25) Lawsonia - ?


Maybe I'm reaching on some of those?  And now that I look at the list, my guess is that Lawsonia probably has the lowest maintenance budget of any of those, though I'm not a turf expert, so maybe it's cheaper to maintain the Bandon and Sand Valley Courses?  When I walk off Lawsonia I feel like I just played a great course that tested most aspects of my game, but unlike most of the places listed, it's not a place where you want to spend the rest of your day just enjoying the surrounds.  The golf course is terrific.  The facility is utilitarian.

A buddy of mine (member at 5 top 100 courses) declared that, if Lawsonia were to be in Long Island and had a $2m+ maintenance budget, it would be top 50 in the world.

Steve Salmen said almost this exact same thing the when we were up there for the Mashie ten years ago.

[Bill Seitz]

Lawsonia is a terrific golf course and I think it stands up well against any of the top public golf courses that I've either seen quite a bit of or played.  What Lawsonia lacks is something the others have that puts it over the top.  That something may be different for all of the top publics, but they all have it.  It may be the setting.  It may be an association with a famous architect (I love L&M, but they're still under most radars).  It may host a PGA Tour event or major championships.  But they almost all have something Lawsonia lacks.


Golfweek has it 25th.  Digest has it 68th, so maybe Golfweek overhypes it, but Digest doesn't?  I'll take GWs top 25 and see if I can identify what Lawsonia lacks:


1) Pebble Beach - Ocean, PGA Tour, Majors.
2) Pac Dunes - Ocean, architect
3) Pinehurst 2 - Setting, architect, majors
4) Old Mac - Setting, architect
5) Straits - Big lake, architect, majors
6) Bandon Dunes - Ocean
7) Shadow Creek - Architect and Greens fees, I suppose (no one wants to pay $1,000 and walk off saying the course sucked).
  Kiawah - Ocean, architect, majors
9) Bethpage - Architect, majors
10) Bandon Trails - Setting, architect
11) Pasatiempo - Setting, architect
12) Sawgrass - PGA Tour, architect
13) Mammoth Dunes - Setting
14) Sand Valley - Setting, architect
15) Spyglass - Ocean, architect
16) Streamsong Red - Setting, architect
17) Gamble Sands - Haven't really seen it, but maybe setting?
18) Kapalua Plantation - Ocean, PGA Tour
19) Streamsong Black - Setting, maybe architect to an extent
20) Manele - Ocean
21) Arcadia Bluff - Big Lake
22) Harbour Town - PGA Tour, architect(s)
23) Streamsong Blue - Setting, architect
24) Chambers Bay - Ocean, major championship
25) Lawsonia - ?


Maybe I'm reaching on some of those?  I suppose "setting" is a bit ambigous, but I don't really think of Pinehurst or the Sand Valley courses as Parkland style settings.  There's something unique about them that Lawsonia lacks.  And now that I look at the list, my guess is that Lawsonia probably has the lowest maintenance budget of any of those, though I'm not a turf expert, so maybe it's cheaper to maintain the Bandon and Sand Valley Courses?  When I walk off Lawsonia I feel like I just played a great course that tested most aspects of my game, but unlike most of the places listed, it's not a place where you want to spend the rest of your day just enjoying the surrounds.  The golf course is terrific.  The facility is utilitarian.

A buddy of mine (member at 5 top 100 courses) declared that, if Lawsonia were to be in Long Island and had a $2m+ maintenance budget, it would be top 50 in the world.

Steve Salmen said almost this exact same thing the when we were up there for the Mashie ten years ago.

[Eric_Terhorst]

Eric,

I played Lawsonia on a destination trip to Erin Hills which is only 74 miles away. Were you at Erin Hills with me? I don't like Lawsonia party because it is an exact replica of the course I am currently looking out at from my kitchen window in Indiana. It's just meh. It also would be great under fantasy budgets and unicorn weather.

John, yes I recall we played together at Erin Hills, which I think you enjoyed more than I did.  I hope you'll revisit Lawsonia  on a drive-by after you see the new Lido in a couple of years. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Eric,

I played Lawsonia on a destination trip to Erin Hills which is only 74 miles away. Were you at Erin Hills with me? I don't like Lawsonia party because it is an exact replica of the course I am currently looking out at from my kitchen window in Indiana. It's just meh. It also would be great under fantasy budgets and unicorn weather.

John, yes I recall we played together at Erin Hills, which I think you enjoyed more than I did.  I hope you'll revisit Lawsonia  on a drive-by after you see the new Lido in a couple of years.

At least I haven't just sat back and let my memory go away by itself. I loved the Dell hole so much that Erin Hills could do no wrong that day. The key to that round may have been Dan Moore picking out a perfect set of tees. Just for giggles, who was in our group?