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Eric_Terhorst

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Lawsonia become "Overhyped?"
« Reply #50 on: October 19, 2021, 12:42:12 PM »
John, you're right Dan did well that day.  My memory doesn't serve on who was our fourth, apologies in advance if that gent is still here.


The Dell hole was interesting, RIP.  At least we didn't have to walk uphill to that tee!

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Lawsonia become "Overhyped?"
« Reply #51 on: October 19, 2021, 12:52:46 PM »
I remember Ken Fry. Someone even gave me a coupon to play for free. I found this amazing piece of work while searching for that thread. It’s both epic and sad.


https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,64609.msg1539994.html#msg1539994

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Lawsonia become "Overhyped?"
« Reply #52 on: October 19, 2021, 01:16:31 PM »
My impression based on my one round at Lawsonia, on a perfect August afternoon in 2015, was that it might be the best everyday public golf course in the country. By that I mean that it has all the exterior trappings of your local daily fee spot - modest clubhouse, local crowd (+Friday fish fry), change shoes in parking lot, etc. - but from tee 1 to green 18 the golf course is just...better. The variety of the holes, esp. the sequence of pars through the middle of the round. The epic earthworks. The openness of the site.


I can see someone who associates highly-ranked public golf with destination resorts being a little confused by Lawsonia's gestalt, and therefore thinking it might be overrated. I can also see someone who has regular access to an only slightly inferior version of Lawsonia not seeing what all the fuss is about. Both of those perspectives are probably going to muddy the waters of the overall view a bit.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Lawsonia become "Overhyped?"
« Reply #53 on: October 19, 2021, 01:57:55 PM »
My impression based on my one round at Lawsonia, on a perfect August afternoon in 2015, was that it might be the best everyday public golf course in the country. By that I mean that it has all the exterior trappings of your local daily fee spot - modest clubhouse, local crowd (+Friday fish fry), change shoes in parking lot, etc. - but from tee 1 to green 18 the golf course is just...better. The variety of the holes, esp. the sequence of pars through the middle of the round. The epic earthworks. The openness of the site.


I can see someone who associates highly-ranked public golf with destination resorts being a little confused by Lawsonia's gestalt, and therefore thinking it might be overrated. I can also see someone who has regular access to an only slightly inferior version of Lawsonia not seeing what all the fuss is about. Both of those perspectives are probably going to muddy the waters of the overall view a bit.


+1...!


Very well said.


My last time playing there was on an early June (2020) Sunday am and it was just fantastic.

Kurt Everett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Lawsonia become "Overhyped?"
« Reply #54 on: October 19, 2021, 03:58:11 PM »
I have long been a bit of a cheerleader for the Links Course at Lawsonia. Holes such as the 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 11th, 13th, 14th, 15th, and 17th get my golf juices flowing.


10-15 years ago Lawsonia was firmly in the "undiscovered" sect of the golf world. Sure, golf nerds like ourselves knew about it, and we even hosted big group events like the 2011 Mashie at the course. We used to go up there from Chicago around the same time and play all day on an empty course on Columbus Day for $60 with a cart.


Now that Wisconsin has exploded as a golf destination between Kohler, Erin Hills, and Sand Valley it seems more and more people are making Lawsonia a stop on their tour.


This past week a friend of mine texted me that his group of 12 left the course feeling it was "overhyped" primarily due to its high magazine rankings (23rd best public perhaps?). I have a hard time thinking anyone who enjoys classic golf course architecture could leave the Links course for the first time feeling underwhelmed, unless of course it's now become a victim of it's own success??


Hey Pat,
We exchanged messages on twitter and I chose to play Lawsonia over Blue Mound.  I played the Links expecting to be underwhelmed because of how hyped it has been.  I think it delivered and lived up to my expectations.  Thanks for the recommendation and I'm sure I'll return when I'm in the area again.  -Kurt

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Lawsonia become "Overhyped?"
« Reply #55 on: October 19, 2021, 07:55:21 PM »
My impression based on my one round at Lawsonia, on a perfect August afternoon in 2015, was that it might be the best everyday public golf course in the country. By that I mean that it has all the exterior trappings of your local daily fee spot - modest clubhouse, local crowd (+Friday fish fry), change shoes in parking lot, etc. - but from tee 1 to green 18 the golf course is just...better. The variety of the holes, esp. the sequence of pars through the middle of the round. The epic earthworks. The openness of the site.


I can see someone who associates highly-ranked public golf with destination resorts being a little confused by Lawsonia's gestalt, and therefore thinking it might be overrated. I can also see someone who has regular access to an only slightly inferior version of Lawsonia not seeing what all the fuss is about. Both of those perspectives are probably going to muddy the waters of the overall view a bit.


hard to say evreyday, when it is closed half of the year, but I get what your mean, just sayin
It's all about the golf!

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Lawsonia become "Overhyped?"
« Reply #56 on: October 20, 2021, 07:51:36 AM »
Social media has allowed everything in golf to be overhyped.  AND some of it is word of mouth and some of it is paid for.  Lots of good golf out there and opinions will vary.  As an example, Joel mentions his love for CGC and I understand that and would fly cross country to play it but if I had to choose in Chicago, it would be Bev first, Shoreacres second and CGC third...and I don't see that being a slam at any of them...BUT IMHO the main factor I see that determines "overhype" for most in group golf is the maintenance level on the day they play...average guy cna't get maintenance out of his head...JMO
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

J_ Crisham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Lawsonia become "Overhyped?"
« Reply #57 on: October 20, 2021, 08:59:42 AM »
Social media has allowed everything in golf to be overhyped.  AND some of it is word of mouth and some of it is paid for.  Lots of good golf out there and opinions will vary.  As an example, Joel mentions his love for CGC and I understand that and would fly cross country to play it but if I had to choose in Chicago, it would be Bev first, Shoreacres second and CGC third...and I don't see that being a slam at any of them...BUT IMHO the main factor I see that determines "overhype" for most in group golf is the maintenance level on the day they play...average guy cna't get maintenance out of his head...JMO
Mike,
 Thanks for the kind words Re: Bev.  Happy to host you when you are next in town. The expansive fescue implementation this Fall , our new 3 short hole course, Himalayas putting green will be impressive additions to the golf experience. The after round vibe on the patio is also well worth experiencing ;)

Kurt Everett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Lawsonia become "Overhyped?"
« Reply #58 on: October 20, 2021, 09:38:29 AM »
Social media has allowed everything in golf to be overhyped.  AND some of it is word of mouth and some of it is paid for.  Lots of good golf out there and opinions will vary.  As an example, Joel mentions his love for CGC and I understand that and would fly cross country to play it but if I had to choose in Chicago, it would be Bev first, Shoreacres second and CGC third...and I don't see that being a slam at any of them...BUT IMHO the main factor I see that determines "overhype" for most in group golf is the maintenance level on the day they play...average guy cna't get maintenance out of his head...JMO
Mike,
 Thanks for the kind words Re: Bev.  Happy to host you when you are next in town. The expansive fescue implementation this Fall , our new 3 short hole course, Himalayas putting green will be impressive additions to the golf experience. The after round vibe on the patio is also well worth experiencing ;)


Beverly on the short list of Chicago courses I'd like to see.  Looks like a fabulous restoration by Tyler Rae

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Lawsonia become "Overhyped?"
« Reply #59 on: October 20, 2021, 10:39:54 AM »
I messed up on this trip not going over to Beverly and Old Elm.


Chicago is underrated in terms of a golf city.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Lawsonia become "Overhyped?"
« Reply #60 on: October 20, 2021, 11:21:49 AM »
I messed up on this trip not going over to Beverly and Old Elm.


Chicago is underrated in terms of a golf city.


Feeling entitled to play wherever and whenever you feel like it is overrated. It is a shame to miss out on the anxiety of waiting for an invite. Lawsonia is the first and only course I ever drove out of my way to visit while playing alone. The sheer boredom of all that played a role in my bad day. No doubt.

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Lawsonia become "Overhyped?"
« Reply #61 on: October 20, 2021, 11:22:24 AM »
I messed up on this trip not going over to Beverly and Old Elm.


Chicago is underrated in terms of a golf city.


1. Yes, you did mess up not going to those two.


2. No, Chicago is NOT an underrated golf city.... ;D



Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Lawsonia become "Overhyped?"
« Reply #62 on: October 20, 2021, 11:37:08 AM »
I messed up on this trip not going over to Beverly and Old Elm.


Chicago is underrated in terms of a golf city.


1. Yes, you did mess up not going to those two.


2. No, Chicago is NOT an underrated golf city.... ;D
Yes I recall reading plenty of shade being thrown Chicago's way.  IIRC a prominent poster said to the effect, "the only people who think Chicago is a great golf city are from Chicago."
I feel differently and think the Chicago area has plenty of very good golf. It isn't Long Island or SF/Monterrey, but I would rank it solidly in the top 10 cities or metro areas for golf and possibly higher.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Lawsonia become "Overhyped?"
« Reply #63 on: October 20, 2021, 11:53:50 AM »
I messed up on this trip not going over to Beverly and Old Elm.


Chicago is underrated in terms of a golf city.


1. Yes, you did mess up not going to those two.


2. No, Chicago is NOT an underrated golf city.... ;D
Yes I recall reading plenty of shade being thrown Chicago's way.  IIRC a prominent poster said to the effect, "the only people who think Chicago is a great golf city are from Chicago."
I feel differently and think the Chicago area has plenty of very good golf. It isn't Long Island or SF/Monterrey, but I would rank it solidly in the top 10 cities or metro areas for golf and possibly higher.


Gotta bifurcate the results w/o a total thread hijack:


1. As far as "public access" goes, Chicago has few peers in the country. More courses per square mile here than anywhere save maybe Collier Co, FL or PHX.


2. GCA-approved tracks or Top 100 belt-notchers. Between Western Open, Westerm AM, US Open, US Am, PGA, Ryder Cup, etc....Chicago is well represented.




John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Lawsonia become "Overhyped?"
« Reply #64 on: October 20, 2021, 11:56:45 AM »
The 80’s called and they want great Chicago golf back.

J_ Crisham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Lawsonia become "Overhyped?"
« Reply #65 on: October 20, 2021, 11:56:50 AM »
I messed up on this trip not going over to Beverly and Old Elm.


Chicago is underrated in terms of a golf city.
Joel,
 This is very true. I consider the big 3: SA, CGC, and OE to be interchangeable depending on your likes. The next tier in no particular order are OFCC North, Flossmoor, Bev, Hinsdale, Black Sheep, Glenview Club, Lake Shore, Exmoor, Skokie, Knollwood,  Butler, Medinah 1/3, Onwentsia, Bob O Link. The next tier Chicago Highlands, Edgewood Valley, Elgin CC, Indian Hill, Briarwood, Calumet, Aurora CC, Oak Park, Riverside, LaGrange, Kemper Lakes, Butterfield, Ruth Lake, Westmoreland , and North Shore. If I failed to mention a few it's not on purpose- lots of very good 2nd /3rd tier tracks in Chicago IMO.

Dan Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Lawsonia become "Overhyped?"
« Reply #66 on: October 20, 2021, 12:42:01 PM »
Overhyped or overrated?  I think they are two different things and in my opinion I think Lawsonia is neither. I'm thrilled they are getting the attention I have long felt Langford and the course deserve.

I have played Lawsonia 100's of times since the 1980's back to when you couldn't even get a beer after your round. It simply keeps getting better. Thanks to Peter Flory I've now had the pleasure of a dozen or so rounds with hickories. If we rank a course on the basis of it is always interesting, challenging and fun, then Lawsonia is underrated as I am always excited to play it under any conditions.

Ron Forse deserves credit for getting the restoration ball rolling 15-20 years ago by identifying what had been lost over the years and encouraging a long term plan for tree removal, integration of native ares and perhaps most significantly recapturing the original fairway lines and green sizes. Twenty years ago the fairways were narrow tree lined ribbons and the green pads had up to 15 yards of fringe!!

In recent years the Oliphant Haltom team led by Craig Haltom and superintendent Mike Lyons have done a wonderful job carrying out many of Ron's recommendations and improving overall playing conditions. Convincing the owners to allow alcohol and upgrading Langford's Pub have made a big impact as well. Following a tough drought year around 2014 Craig made the bold decision to take out almost all of the remaining trees on the the rest of the course particularly those surrounding the 13th and 14th greens which has had a dramatic effect on the quality of those two greens but also opened up expansive long views of the entire back nine. I was excited to hear last week at the annual Langford Shield Event that Craig plans to start a bunker improvement program on the Links course this winter. Last winter he greatly improved the woodlands course with a complete redo of all of their bunkers. Hopefully he'll restore the bunker left of the box car 7th green all the way to the back of the green and get rid of the paved cul-de-sac that has no business being in play left of the green.

I've played all the better named Wisconsin courses and personally always put Lawsonia as the course I enjoy playing the most. Why? I think its because there isn't a weak hole on the course and the undulating green complexes are as good as it gets anywhere. Every hole fits the overall scheme of providing a well-balanced, strategic challenge to all aspects of one's game regardless of skill level or how far you hit the ball. The Sr. hickory golfers who hit it 180 yards at most love playing Lawsonia as much as the scratch players who hit it 300+. 

Where can you find 5 more varied and interesting par 3's (4-203, 7-161, 10-239, 12-183,14-154)?  The ebb and flow of the course is really great tacking between the varied par 3's, challenging par 4's and gettable par 5's. Where else can you play a sequence of holes from 9-14 that go 535, 239, 510, 183, 568, 154? Then you follow these up with three fighting par 4's just when the match is on the line, then finish with a par 5 where anything from 3-7 is possible. Add to this one of the best inside the dogleg bunkers on the 386 yard 3rd hole where the fairway bunker, left to right slope of the fairway and angle of the green all work in concert, the great uphill 203 yard 4th, the reachable 486 yard par 5 5th hole with its massive undulating green and the All-World 6th hole with its diagonal tiered green and you have the complete package in my opinion.

From designing, building, owning and operating the year round Mid-City Golf Links from the 1920's to the 1950's to serving on the USGA Public Links Committee, Langford was huge supporter of public golf. In fact Langford's granddaughter told me while I was promoting his induction into the Illinois Golf Hall of Fame that he was most proud of the role he had played in his life as a promoter of the everyday working public links golfer. Lawsonia seems to me hits the sweet spot as a fitting tribute to Langford the man, golfer and architect by providing quality, affordable public golf.
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Mark Smolens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Lawsonia become "Overhyped?"
« Reply #67 on: October 21, 2021, 06:17:31 PM »
Overhyped or overrated?  I think they are two different things and in my opinion I think Lawsonia is neither. I'm thrilled they are getting the attention I have long felt Langford and the course deserve.

I have played Lawsonia 100's of times since the 1980's back to when you couldn't even get a beer after your round. It simply keeps getting better. Thanks to Peter Flory I've now had the pleasure of a dozen or so rounds with hickories. If we rank a course on the basis of it is always interesting, challenging and fun, then Lawsonia is underrated as I am always excited to play it under any conditions.

Ron Forse deserves credit for getting the restoration ball rolling 15-20 years ago by identifying what had been lost over the years and encouraging a long term plan for tree removal, integration of native ares and perhaps most significantly recapturing the original fairway lines and green sizes. Twenty years ago the fairways were narrow tree lined ribbons and the green pads had up to 15 yards of fringe!!

In recent years the Oliphant Haltom team led by Craig Haltom and superintendent Mike Lyons have done a wonderful job carrying out many of Ron's recommendations and improving overall playing conditions. Convincing the owners to allow alcohol and upgrading Langford's Pub have made a big impact as well. Following a tough drought year around 2014 Craig made the bold decision to take out almost all of the remaining trees on the the rest of the course particularly those surrounding the 13th and 14th greens which has had a dramatic effect on the quality of those two greens but also opened up expansive long views of the entire back nine. I was excited to hear last week at the annual Langford Shield Event that Craig plans to start a bunker improvement program on the Links course this winter. Last winter he greatly improved the woodlands course with a complete redo of all of their bunkers. Hopefully he'll restore the bunker left of the box car 7th green all the way to the back of the green and get rid of the paved cul-de-sac that has no business being in play left of the green.

I've played all the better named Wisconsin courses and personally always put Lawsonia as the course I enjoy playing the most. Why? I think its because there isn't a weak hole on the course and the undulating green complexes are as good as it gets anywhere. Every hole fits the overall scheme of providing a well-balanced, strategic challenge to all aspects of one's game regardless of skill level or how far you hit the ball. The Sr. hickory golfers who hit it 180 yards at most love playing Lawsonia as much as the scratch players who hit it 300+. 

Where can you find 5 more varied and interesting par 3's (4-203, 7-161, 10-239, 12-183,14-154)?  The ebb and flow of the course is really great tacking between the varied par 3's, challenging par 4's and gettable par 5's. Where else can you play a sequence of holes from 9-14 that go 535, 239, 510, 183, 568, 154? Then you follow these up with three fighting par 4's just when the match is on the line, then finish with a par 5 where anything from 3-7 is possible. Add to this one of the best inside the dogleg bunkers on the 386 yard 3rd hole where the fairway bunker, left to right slope of the fairway and angle of the green all work in concert, the great uphill 203 yard 4th, the reachable 486 yard par 5 5th hole with its massive undulating green and the All-World 6th hole with its diagonal tiered green and you have the complete package in my opinion.

From designing, building, owning and operating the year round Mid-City Golf Links from the 1920's to the 1950's to serving on the USGA Public Links Committee, Langford was huge supporter of public golf. In fact Langford's granddaughter told me while I was promoting his induction into the Illinois Golf Hall of Fame that he was most proud of the role he had played in his life as a promoter of the everyday working public links golfer. Lawsonia seems to me hits the sweet spot as a fitting tribute to Langford the man, golfer and architect by providing quality, affordable public golf.


Wow. Quite a post. . . +1

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Has Lawsonia become "Overhyped?"
« Reply #68 on: October 21, 2021, 07:34:01 PM »
No.

Played it in June of this year and just about everything was great. Better than expected, and I'd just come from Sand Valley. Tim's post above was great.

Lac La Belle, now that's overhyped.  :)
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Has Lawsonia become "Overhyped?"
« Reply #69 on: October 21, 2021, 09:17:10 PM »
Dan's was quite the post indeed - heart, mind, spirit, historical insights and playing experience all rolled into one! Just excellent, Dan.

Also, it reminds me of a pet theory of mine, i.e. that the single most important/determinative factor in the quality (and lasting appeal) of a golf course design is the *primary intention* of those who created it.  From this thread and Dan's post, it looks and sounds as if Langford definitely intended all the right things!



« Last Edit: October 21, 2021, 10:55:46 PM by Peter Pallotta »

V_Halyard

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Lawsonia become "Overhyped?"
« Reply #70 on: October 22, 2021, 05:40:22 PM »
Maybe your buddies would have thought better of it with a $250+ green fee...;-)...and $8.00 beers.


I think the hype around Lawsonia is as much about its price/performance factor as it is about its architectural merits.
Green fees are around $75.00 for summer weekends and cheaper at other times.


$98.00 with a cart  on a Langford/Moreau beauty.

Overhyped? Only if you dont like sub-$100 golf... ;D
I'm with Ian. I fully defend LGC. IMHO, the ROI on $$/GCA is hard to match.
Worth pondering, would a $5/person boost in greens fees would support filling all the bunkers expand fairways to the original mow lines?  Just a pondering though. I propose that the "hype" has not exceeded the "over".
"It's a tiny little ball that doesn't even move... how hard could it be?"  I will walk and carry 'til I can't... or look (really) stupid.

V_Halyard

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Lawsonia become "Overhyped?"
« Reply #71 on: October 22, 2021, 05:42:20 PM »
I think undiscovered gems are a casualty of the last 30 years of gca interest, and the last 20 years of the internet age, no?
It is only a casualty to those not trying to run an undiscovered gem business.  ;)
"It's a tiny little ball that doesn't even move... how hard could it be?"  I will walk and carry 'til I can't... or look (really) stupid.

V_Halyard

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Lawsonia become "Overhyped?"
« Reply #72 on: October 22, 2021, 05:44:44 PM »
I messed up on this trip not going over to Beverly and Old Elm.


Chicago is underrated in terms of a golf city.


1. Yes, you did mess up not going to those two.

2. No, Chicago is NOT an underrated golf city.... ;D
LOL I'm surprised he actually admitted this in print.
"It's a tiny little ball that doesn't even move... how hard could it be?"  I will walk and carry 'til I can't... or look (really) stupid.

Peter Flory

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Lawsonia become "Overhyped?"
« Reply #73 on: October 22, 2021, 08:55:40 PM »
By the way- Dan's post reminds me...


Every year, the Wisconsin Hickory group hosts a 2 round hickory tournament at Lawsonia.  It's scratch and net divisions with various age categories, etc.  But it's filled with a range of players from scratch to high handicap- so if you want to casually play, you won't be out of place. 


I'd highly recommend it to anyone in the region and I'm glad to lend clubs to anyone interested.  It's just a fascinating way to study a classic golf course and it will improve your course management and make your modern clubs feel like cheating when you switch back. 

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Lawsonia become "Overhyped?"
« Reply #74 on: October 24, 2021, 02:21:45 PM »
I messed up on this trip not going over to Beverly and Old Elm.


Chicago is underrated in terms of a golf city.


1. Yes, you did mess up not going to those two.

2. No, Chicago is NOT an underrated golf city.... ;D
LOL I'm surprised he actually admitted this in print.


Why, you don't know me?  I tried to go to Davenport but the course was closed for punching the greens.


I'd say I had a pretty successful trip and saw some great courses.