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Troy Miller

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Re: US Courses with sod faced bunkers?
« Reply #25 on: October 18, 2021, 10:29:47 AM »
Cassique on Kiawah has done a fair number of these out of artificial recently and I think they look incredible.  They have imported the turf from old soccer fields (Football pitches) that were sand infilled and I've heard of some laying the turf green side down as part of their spec.
[size=78%] [/size]





Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG

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Re: US Courses with sod faced bunkers?
« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2021, 01:40:27 PM »
We started using EcoBunker at LedgeRock a few years ago. The idea is to eliminate as many points of sand contamination as possible so the bunker (sand) will last longer. The Ecobunker creates a solid edge under the turf so soil cannot wash in. With the little lips here the Ecobunker is under the sand so most people don't even know it's there.


The real turf is placed on top, with an upside down piece under a right side up piece. The upper piece is then tucked under the bottom one creating the lip - which works perfect here for the manicured look as there is a nice grass edge at the height we want.


I did play with some fescue revetting on the first ones we started to rebuild, following what I saw the Blinder guys do with Tim Lobb in the UK. I really liked the look and as mentioned above it can be left to grow and create a nice fescue lip of varying height and it can give a more natural look. The issue in the US is that we cannot get real revetted fescue sod so the edge has no real structure. US sod is pretty much all thatch, whereas in the Us they build the sod up with sand and each piece is more like a sandy/grassy brick. The edges we done looked great (and for the most part still do) but they sink if you stand on them.


EcoBunker & Blinder at LedgeRock





EcoBunker and real sod revet at LedgeRock





Blinder and Revet UK





Blinder and Grassy Revet UK






« Last Edit: October 21, 2021, 11:22:44 AM by Alan FitzGerald MG »
Golf construction & maintenance are like creating a masterpiece; Da Vinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa's eyes first..... You start with the backdrop, layer on the detail and fine tune the finished product into a masterpiece

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: US Courses with sod faced bunkers?
« Reply #27 on: October 18, 2021, 01:49:32 PM »
Jaeger

Apologies if I'm being a bit obtuse but presumably there is a layer of natural turf on top of eco bunker layers ?

Jeff

Re how long a sod wall lasts, this is something I've debated with Ally a number of times and I disagree that they need renewed quite as frequently as he and others state, but then is does come down to how far you let the wall face degrade before you revett it back to what it was. That's where the Open plays it's part and especially since they started going back to St Andrews every 5 years and revetted every single bunker to make them pristine before the big event. To my mind that is where the 5 year shelf life came in.

When I think of some of the links courses where I've been a member my "favourite" bunkers ie. the ones I tended to go in frequently, weren't revetted as frequently as every 5 years.

Niall


Oi Niall!… you need to remember correctly that I was the one arguing with you, not against you.


I like eroded sod wall bunkers and many of them can last for years, especially if you are fluid with the aesthetic of how they develop.


That said, sometimes you do need a cleaner look that still functions. How often the sod needs replaced will depend on:


- Quality of sod
- How much use it gets (sand splash)
- Type of sand
- How easy it is to walk out the face
- Orientation

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Courses with sod faced bunkers?
« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2021, 04:16:55 AM »
Jaeger

Apologies if I'm being a bit obtuse but presumably there is a layer of natural turf on top of eco bunker layers ?

Jeff

Re how long a sod wall lasts, this is something I've debated with Ally a number of times and I disagree that they need renewed quite as frequently as he and others state, but then is does come down to how far you let the wall face degrade before you revett it back to what it was. That's where the Open plays it's part and especially since they started going back to St Andrews every 5 years and revetted every single bunker to make them pristine before the big event. To my mind that is where the 5 year shelf life came in.

When I think of some of the links courses where I've been a member my "favourite" bunkers ie. the ones I tended to go in frequently, weren't revetted as frequently as every 5 years.

Niall

Niall

I agree. The bunkers are just starting to look good and wham, they get redone. Very few newly revetted bunkers look good. That's why people go mad over Muirfield.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Courses with sod faced bunkers?
« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2021, 07:50:11 AM »
Ally

We're in agreement ! Marvellous, I always knew you were a decent sort of chap.

As an aside, and perhaps pertinent to revetted bunkers on non-links US courses, I started playing on a parkland/inland/heavy soil course in Scotland some 50 years ago (I was very very young I hasten to add) and the greenside bunkering had revetted faces with sand flashed up the front. I can't swear to it but I'm fairly sure all local courses were the same.

These days the fashion is the Dave Thomas flat bottomed and humpty bumpty style of bunkering which I think is a great shame. I wonder if the advent of eco-bunker might persuade these clubs/courses to change back ?

Niall

Michael Wolf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Courses with sod faced bunkers?
« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2021, 11:28:10 AM »
Lester George installed a couple of eco bunkers when he redesigned Vestavia CC in Birmingham a couple of years ago. There's one built into a pretty severe upslope in front of the 9th green that blends in well. I believe they go so far as to paint the edges to match the surrounding grass' growth/dormant colors a couple of times a year. But I do not know the specifics.


Michael

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Courses with sod faced bunkers?
« Reply #31 on: October 20, 2021, 11:31:58 AM »
So I think the question still stands...... are there any US courses that use actual sod faced bunkers today?  It appears only eco bunkers are used.  If not, are the eco bunkers the reason for longevity and cost?
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Courses with sod faced bunkers?
« Reply #32 on: October 20, 2021, 03:32:36 PM »
So I think the question still stands...... are there any US courses that use actual sod faced bunkers today?  It appears only eco bunkers are used.  If not, are the eco bunkers the reason for longevity and cost?
Picture from Arcadia Bluffs hole by hole (Bluffs #15)
https://arcadiabluffs.com/the-bluffs/hole-15

Tom Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Courses with sod faced bunkers?
« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2021, 09:39:06 AM »
We started using EcoBunker at LedgeRock a few years ago. The idea is to eliminate as many points of sand contamination as possible so the bunker (sand) will last longer. The Ecobunker creates a solid edge under the turf so soil cannot wash in. With the little lips here the Ecobunker is under the sand so most people don't even know it's there.


The real turf is placed on top, with an upside down piece under a right side up piece. The upper piece is then tucked under the bottom one creating the lip - which works perfect here for the manicured look as there is a nice grass edge at the height we want.


I did play with some fescue revetting on the first ones we started to rebuild, following what I saw the Blinder guys do with Tim Lobb in the UK. I really liked the look and as mentioned above it can be left to grow and create a nice fescue lip of varying height and it can give a more natural look. The issue in the US is that we cannot get real revetted fescue sod so the edge has no real structure. US sod is pretty much all thatch, whereas in the Us they build the sod up with sand and each piece is more like a sandy/grassy brick. The edges we done looked great (and for the most part still do) but they sink if you stand on them.


EcoBunker & Blinder at LedgeRock


EcoBunker and real sod revet at LedgeRock


Blinder and Revet UK


Blinder and Grassy Revet UK



Alan,
Any chance you could re-attach the photos as I can't see them and I assume others can't either. Interested to see how the turf tucked over other turf layers above the ecobunker works/looks.
Thanks

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Courses with sod faced bunkers?
« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2021, 10:31:19 AM »
Bandon has few, used to have more.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Anthony_Nysse

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Re: US Courses with sod faced bunkers?
« Reply #35 on: October 21, 2021, 10:49:23 AM »
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Courses with sod faced bunkers?
« Reply #36 on: October 21, 2021, 11:30:24 AM »

Alan,
Any chance you could re-attach the photos as I can't see them and I assume others can't either. Interested to see how the turf tucked over other turf layers above the ecobunker works/looks.
Thanks


Tom they should be up now. Thats the last time I use Google photos to share them. I guess it showed them when I'm logged into Google and then turned them off when I logged out....


For some reason I can't find a close up picture of the tucked sod but if you zoom in on the first one it should be visible.
Golf construction & maintenance are like creating a masterpiece; Da Vinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa's eyes first..... You start with the backdrop, layer on the detail and fine tune the finished product into a masterpiece

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Courses with sod faced bunkers?
« Reply #37 on: October 21, 2021, 12:18:42 PM »
I remember reading this article in my first year at MSU.


1997aug13f.pdf (msu.edu)



Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Courses with sod faced bunkers?
« Reply #38 on: November 04, 2021, 03:09:47 PM »
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/peter-downie-46232b6_proper-quality-sod-going-down-activity-6859311449764962305-zwCp
Check out these photos from Peter Downie at Clearwater Bay in Hong Kong of their bunker rebuild. They are using something for their bunker edges. What is that? Beefy sod to finish. Manufactured yes, but they are putting some money in for sure.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Courses with sod faced bunkers?
« Reply #39 on: November 04, 2021, 03:17:20 PM »
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/peter-downie-46232b6_proper-quality-sod-going-down-activity-6859311449764962305-zwCp
Check out these photos from Peter Downie at Clearwater Bay in Hong Kong of their bunker rebuild. They are using something for their bunker edges. What is that? Beefy sod to finish. Manufactured yes, but they are putting some money in for sure.


It’s EcoBunker for the edge and Capillary Concrete for the base. Harley Kruse is the architect and they’re trying to do something not dissimilar to the Melbourne Sandbelt-esque bunkers that Harley did with the same technology at Killara in Sydney.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Greg Clark

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Courses with sod faced bunkers?
« Reply #40 on: November 04, 2021, 04:35:18 PM »
I’m not sure many here realize it, but the grass lips and edges of the bunkers at Winged Foot, Baltusrol Lower, Les Bordes, Merion, Aronimink, Pinehurst 4, Streamsong Black and the majority of Gil’s bunkers are built with 3-6 pieces of revetted stacked sod. Most of the time it is done w fine fescue. Sometimes Bermuda in the south. It definitely evolves. How long it takes to entirely break down is always different.


I believe this process was used at the PGA Frisco - East course.

Richard Hetzel

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Re: US Courses with sod faced bunkers?
« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2022, 01:13:41 PM »
Gailes in Michigan.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2022, 09:04:07 PM by Richard Hetzel »
Best Played So Far This Season:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI)

Brett Meyer

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Re: US Courses with sod faced bunkers?
« Reply #42 on: January 06, 2022, 01:52:29 PM »
There's also one completely random one on (I think) the fifth hole on King's North at Myrtle Beach National. No others on the rest of the course, so it really stuck out. It also stuck out because my playing partner took about 4 shots to get out:



Richard, there are certainly a lot of sod faced bunkers at the Gailes. Too many of them; in my most recent visit in 2020, most of them were in very poor shape. And generally, they're poorly constructed, mostly dug a foot or two into minimally shaped surroundings. That course would be better with fewer sod faced bunkers that were better shaped so that it'd be easier to take care of them.

An example of what I'm talking about on the right:


Richard Hetzel

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Re: US Courses with sod faced bunkers?
« Reply #43 on: January 06, 2022, 07:51:19 PM »
I think I played the Gailes in 2008 (need to find the pics) and it was in decent shape, IIRC, most of the sod faced bunkers didn't really come into play all that much.....I don't remember that one at King's North either!
Best Played So Far This Season:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI)

Richard Hetzel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Courses with sod faced bunkers?
« Reply #44 on: January 06, 2022, 08:40:41 PM »
I had to dig into my photo archives! Gailes Course, Michigan, circa 2008







« Last Edit: January 06, 2022, 08:57:16 PM by Richard Hetzel »
Best Played So Far This Season:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI)

Richard Hetzel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Courses with sod faced bunkers?
« Reply #45 on: January 06, 2022, 08:46:06 PM »
Here is solid proof that these type of bunkers are most likely a super's nightmare, way too much upkeep labor. This is The Golf Club of Dublin, in Dublin, Ohio. First, and last time ever playing there.






That being said, I liked how Arcadia Bluffs keeps theirs:Not really stacked per se, from a distance they have a similar visual effect, up close a lot less maintenance for sure.
This one on hole 18 looks to be stacked.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2022, 09:08:30 PM by Richard Hetzel »
Best Played So Far This Season:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI)

Mike Schott

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Courses with sod faced bunkers?
« Reply #46 on: January 06, 2022, 09:51:30 PM »
There's also one completely random one on (I think) the fifth hole on King's North at Myrtle Beach National. No others on the rest of the course, so it really stuck out. It also stuck out because my playing partner took about 4 shots to get out:



Richard, there are certainly a lot of sod faced bunkers at the Gailes. Too many of them; in my most recent visit in 2020, most of them were in very poor shape. And generally, they're poorly constructed, mostly dug a foot or two into minimally shaped surroundings. That course would be better with fewer sod faced bunkers that were better shaped so that it'd be easier to take care of them.

An example of what I'm talking about on the right:




Slightly off topic but related to your experience, many have commented that conditions at Lakewood Shores Resort where The Gailes is located, have deteriorated the last few years. Possibly Covid-19 related?

Brett Meyer

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Re: US Courses with sod faced bunkers?
« Reply #47 on: January 07, 2022, 06:32:44 AM »
Slightly off topic but related to your experience, many have commented that conditions at Lakewood Shores Resort where The Gailes is located, have deteriorated the last few years. Possibly Covid-19 related?

My two visits were about 15 years apart so I can't comment on what happened in between, but it sounds like covid has affected them in several ways. One, before I went in late summer 2020, I had heard that they had had a difficult time getting people to work on the grounds crew. Makes sense at that time with the availability of unemployment benefits; they weren't the only ones struggling with this. But they also have three courses to maintain.

Actually, apart from the bunkers, the Gailes looked pretty good. I'm pretty sure that it was getting the lion's share of the care. The Blackshire course looked absolutely dismal, which was a shame because it has a great set of greens.

But they were also struggling on the demand side. I think that was both covid and long-term factors. This only comes from one source, but I heard is that they used to get a lot of visitors from Canada and that that dried up with Covid-19. I would imagine that more generally, things have gotten a lot tougher for them the past few years with the Gailes falling off all of the rankings and places like Forest Dunes and Arcadia Bluffs getting all the attention.

That's too bad; the Gailes was a very original course and there's still a lot to like. The shaping of most of it is a bit too minimal for it to really have the feel of a great links but if it played firm and fast like the Loop, I'd want to play it all the time. Unfortunately, it shows just how important the grass is because it's all bent and plays like any regular Michigan course.

The Blackshire is a real tragedy. It dispelled to me the idea that a course with great greens must be at least very good. The first two holes have the Pine Valley look and I thought that I was going to experience a real hidden gem. But then the course just stops trying from tee-to-green.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Courses with sod faced bunkers?
« Reply #48 on: January 07, 2022, 06:41:02 AM »
Slightly off topic but related to your experience, many have commented that conditions at Lakewood Shores Resort where The Gailes is located, have deteriorated the last few years. Possibly Covid-19 related?

My two visits were about 15 years apart so I can't comment on what happened in between, but it sounds like covid has affected them in several ways. One, before I went in late summer 2020, I had heard that they had had a difficult time getting people to work on the grounds crew. Makes sense at that time with the availability of unemployment benefits; they weren't the only ones struggling with this. But they also have three courses to maintain.

Actually, apart from the bunkers, the Gailes looked pretty good. I'm pretty sure that it was getting the lion's share of the care. The Blackshire course looked absolutely dismal, which was a shame because it has a great set of greens.

But they were also struggling on the demand side. I think that was both covid and long-term factors. This only comes from one source, but I heard is that they used to get a lot of visitors from Canada and that that dried up with Covid-19. I would imagine that more generally, things have gotten a lot tougher for them the past few years with the Gailes falling off all of the rankings and places like Forest Dunes and Arcadia Bluffs getting all the attention.

That's too bad; the Gailes was a very original course and there's still a lot to like. The shaping of most of it is a bit too minimal for it to really have the feel of a great links but if it played firm and fast like the Loop, I'd want to play it all the time. Unfortunately, it shows just how important the grass is because it's all bent and plays like any regular Michigan course.

The Blackshire is a real tragedy. It dispelled to me the idea that a course with great greens must be at least very good. The first two holes have the Pine Valley look and I thought that I was going to experience a real hidden gem. But then the course just stops trying from tee-to-green.

Thats too bad about the Gailes. I agree with you, it was a groundbreaking design that doesn't get the deserved credit. Still one of my favourites.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tony Dear

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Courses with sod faced bunkers?
« Reply #49 on: January 07, 2022, 06:33:21 PM »
There are a few at the Home Course in Dupont, Wash., designed by Mike Asmundson and opened around 2007.
Tony