OT: What is "a reasonable time to reach the hole"?

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Watching this incident at the CJ Cup got me thinking about how one could interpret the the term "reasonable time". Clearly this was not reasonable time, as he went on a total walk-about:
https://golf.com/instruction/rules/how-pro-made-birdie-putt-one-stroke-penalty/

I then remembered this incident with Si Woo Kim:
https://twitter.com/PGATOUR/status/1383461508772814850
where the shot is played from off the green.

I understand it doesn't matter whether the stroke was a putt or a short/long stroke from off the green, as overhanging means overhanging. But can "reasonable time" be interpreted in different ways, depending on where you are located in relation to your playing partners. I can give some examples to explain my concerns.

Scenario 1:
You played a stroke from 100 yards and you can see that the ball is close to the hole. You walk with your playing partner to his ball which is 30 yards short of the front of the green (let's say 50 yards from the hole). You continue walking up to the side of the green (let's say pin-high; you're now standing 15 yards from the hole and you can clearly see that the ball is on the lip of the hole).

What do you do?
A) Do you shout to your playing partner and say: "hold on, my ball is overhanging the hole and I need to get to it in reasonable time", and then count 10 seconds, otherwise it might drop while your partner plays his chip shot. Or let's say your partner duffs his chip and just bumps it 10 yards forward. You would have had time to go to your ball, count 10 seconds, and mark it if it does not drop. What should you do? Should you wait until your partner gets his ball close to the hole, so that he can see that it is overhanging, or should you take action as soon as you reach the green?

B) You stand there waiting over one minute, while your playing partner takes his next shot. You do not approach the overhanging ball. The ball drops. Was that one or two strokes?

Scenario 2:
Same situation as scenario 1, but your playing partner is playing his pitch from a location where he can only see the top of the flag. He cannot see that your ball is overhanging the hole. As in scenario 1, you are standing pin-high. He can't see where your ball is located, but you tell him it's on the lip, and that you need to approach the ball in reasonable time. He waits. You walk to the hole and as you reach the ball, it drops. You shout to your playing partner (who doesn't know you very well) that the ball dropped before you counted to 10 seconds, so it's counted as a holed out shot. All your playing partner saw was that you approached the hole, but he couldn't see what you did (maybe you just picked it up, maybe you tapped it in, and said it dropped). My point here is that it seems a little un-sporting to approach your ball when your playing partner cannot see it. I'm sure some of us here have played with dodgy characters that have suddenly found their ball in the hole, while you are some distance from the green.

Scenario 3:
(Similar to scenario 1 and 2)
You play a stroke from 200 yards and you can see that the ball is close to the hole. Your playing partner is hacking it along the semi-rough and you walk to the green. You playing partner is still duffing it and is still 150 yards from the green, still in the semi-rough, and with no chance to reach the green anytime soon. You're now standing 15 yards from the hole and you can clearly see that the ball is on the lip of the hole. Do you wait the 2 minutes it will probably take for your partner to reach the green, or do you approach your overhanding ball? You are an honourable person and the thought of approaching the hole and seeing your ball drop is not something that makes you comfortable, especially when you playing partner is not someone you know.

I suspect there is a simple answer to this question: my feeling is that you would wait while your playing partner(s) reach the green, and only then do you approach the overhanging ball.

EDIT: Or the opposite scenario where you walk very slowly to the green (accidently dropping a head cover and walking back 50 yards to retrieve it), or try to delay your arrival as much as possible, but still within the rules.

[jeffwarne]

I think that's less of the issue.
As long as there is a penalty for hitting a moving ball,there will always be confusion.
The good news is for him is that the ball fell in, saving him the stroke but adding one for penalty-a wash.


Would they have actually penalized him if he had gone through the exact process and the ball had remained on the lip?
Or, worse yet, he waits his 10 seconds, realizes it won't fall, then as he's in his backswing it moves and he hits it or whiffs it (all captured on the Konicka Minolta super slow mo)

[Ronald Montesano]

"... the player is allowed enough time to reach the hole without unreasonable delay and an additional 10 seconds to determine whether the ball is at rest."

Moot point if you are well off the green.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Here is what is written on the "interpretations" section of rule 13.3a:

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rule-13-interpretations.html

13.3a/1 – Meaning of Reasonable Time for Player to Reach Hole
Determining the limits of a reasonable time to reach the hole depends on the circumstances of the stroke and includes time for a player’s natural or spontaneous reaction to the ball not going into the hole.

For example, a player may have played the shot from well off the putting green and it may take him or her several minutes to reach the hole while other players play their shots and all walk to the putting green. Or, the player may need to take an indirect route to the hole by walking around the line of play of another player on the putting green.

[Carl Rogers]

Isn't this a function of playing order and the obligation to mark your ball?

[Ronald Montesano]

How so, Carl?

[Carl Rogers]

Let's say that player A is away and hits an excellent shot.  Given the roll of the terrain and distance, it is impossible to determine how close to the hole the ball has come to rest.


Doesn't player A wait patiently for the rest of the group hit before walking to the green?  Yes, of course.  This time frame could be several minutes.  No rules infraction IMO.


Other shots could be played before it is player A's turn to hit.  At the green, is player A required to mark the ball?  Not sure.  But if player A is required to mark or does mark, that means the ball is at rest and can't fall in the hole once the ball is replaced.


However, if the ball is not marked, the ball could fall in the hole if more time elapsed as long as it is it is not player's A turn to hit.


Welcome all crits.

[Niall C]

It seems they have given themselves scope for interpretation ie. reasonable in the circumstances, which I think is sensible. To reference some of the examples given I would think it reasonable to wait for your playing partners to play to the green before going up to your ball.

Niall

[Tommy Williamsen]

When I was a teen I played in a pro-junior with the head pro. I hit my putt and it was indeed hanging over the hole. Mr. Rasnic, my pro, said , Tommy tie your shoes.” I did and the ball dropped in. But I think the rule was a little different sixty years ago.

[JohnVDB]

When I was a teen I played in a pro-junior with the head pro. I hit my putt and it was indeed hanging over the hole. Mr. Rasnic, my pro, said , Tommy tie your shoes.” I did and the ball dropped in. But I think the rule was a little different sixty years ago.

60:years ago there was no penalty.  It wasn’t introduced until the 1980s. At first it was a two-stroke penalty, but after one notable incident it was lowered to one so that the penalty vs. tapping the ball in we’re the same and there was no benefit in waiting.


I’m not near all my books so I can get you the exact details.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I think that's less of the issue.
As long as there is a penalty for hitting a moving ball,there will always be confusion.
The good news is for him is that the ball fell in, saving him the stroke but adding one for penalty-a wash.

Would they have actually penalized him if he had gone through the exact process and the ball had remained on the lip?
Or, worse yet, he waits his 10 seconds, realizes it won't fall, then as he's in his backswing it moves and he hits it or whiffs it (all captured on the Konicka Minolta super slow mo)

Whatever happens, and unless they penalize you for delay of play, it's the same number of strokes. If your birdie putt came up short, it's a par (unless it falls in before the time limit is up). If you wait and it stays… you tap it in. If you wait too long and it falls in, one stroke = par.

[Mike Hendren]

Good time to fake a hammy while approaching the hole.


Ole Miss slowed down my Volunteers’ fast paced offense Saturday by faking injuries some 28  times according to some.


Golf is a thinking man’s game.


Bogey

[Mark Smolens]

Good time to fake a hammy while approaching the hole.


Ole Miss slowed down my Volunteers’ fast paced offense Saturday by faking injuries some 28  times according to some.


Golf is a thinking man’s game.


Bogey

I thought it was the bottles and golf balls raining down on the field (from their own "fans") that slowed the Vols' roll?