Why don't they see it ?

[archie_struthers]

 


Played a match at Woodcrest CC Saturday with a group of pretty good senior golfers. The Golf Association of Philadelphia runs a nice post season set of inter club matches. So even if these guys don't play as well as they used to they have been around the game.


Woodcrest is a Toomey -Flynn collaboration that was built in 1929. It morphed into a private, exclusive Jewish club in the 50's when there was discrimination and people couldn't join at other clubs in the area. It continued that way into the 90's when a  board miscalculated what a multi-million dollar clubhouse would do to club finances. It was sold at auction for $10m over ten years ago and just was resold.


I was invited to the re-organizational meeting and managed to sit thru the meeting without saying much. When they asked me for an opinion as to what was good for Woodcrest I had two thoughts, take out a bunch of trees and switch the nines back to the original set up from when  caddied there in the late 60's and 70's. They have done some pruning that is quite an improvement but the nines remain the same. Seems some one thought it logical to make the new clubhouse with it's fabulous outside deck overlook the finisher. So the nines were flipped and the rest is history,


Here's the catch. The new first hole had one of the toughest tee shots in the area, with hazard short and left and OB right. Not a gentle handshake by any stretch. It just so happens that the 18th is now an excellent tough par five but with a big lake fronting the green, Fun for single digits but lots of x's for the rest of the players.  It's just too hard for them .


In the old days the back nine was the easier of the two , with many players improving dramatically from front to back. Also pace of play was better as the first hole wasn't a killer with lost balls and plenty of looking for them.


So without even the need for some cold beer after the round , though we enjoyed a few I asked my playing partners and a few employees I know about switching the nines . To a man minus one they said no way, everyone loves watching people finish and one even said the cursed "signature hole" to me.  ouch 


So I guess my training to prevent trunk slamming and have the patrons enjoy their golf didn't ring true to hardly anyone but me and one convert  lol

[Tommy Williamsen]

Archie, I don't mean to be smart but maybe the title of the thread should be "Why don't I see it?" From what you wrote the vast majority of the membership likes things the way they are. For them it is "If it ain't broke don't fix it." I probably would side with you but there is something to be said about watching folks finish a round. They have to play the last hole anyway. 


As for trees, there is another argument to consider. I mentioned to a non-golfing friend that I had played a course where over a thousand trees were removed. Her reply was, "Another way that golf is screwing up the environment. People are being asked to plant trees and now golf is cutting them down."

[Mike Worth]

Archie, what a great post about the history of Woodcrest


I live right up the road from there but I’ve only played the course about 5 times.


What is the new membership structure? 100% private or semi private?


I was unaware that the 9s had been flipped. Also, I’ve never finished the present 18th hole -  all Xs. Maybe that’s why I think it’s a really stupid hole LOL.


As a Hidden Creek member, I played a GAP match there in 2005 or so. Even before the great recession of 2008, members told me during my match of the stresses in the financial structure of the club. Members were being assessed for various things such as range balls and the debt on the new clubhouse — bringing annual dues to something like $15,000 which was a lot in 2005.


The financial management of that club 20 years ago is a case study in golf course management malfeasance. It should be taught at Wharton.


My GAP playing partner from HC had competed in the NJHS tournament at Woodcrest in like 1971. He would rave about the great conditioning of that course back in the 60s and 70s

[archie_struthers]

 


Ha, ha Tommy didn’t know how to write the title tongue in cheek    but figured someone would bite. 


As another guy said long ago once the inmates run the asylum you got problems. Faster play and lower back nine scores would make a lot better fun IM not so humble opinion . But I stand in the minority …..


As to the trees 🌳. I’m not a massive denuder but there are obvious reasons to open up some areas ….the 11th at Woodcrest is a perfect example of a job well done

[JMEvensky]

 I’m not a massive denuder

Smart move--pretty sure massive denuding is a felony is several states.

[archie_struthers]

 


Fishing is good today , love you JM

[MCirba]

They should rename it the Woodcrest Arboretum and Nursery, Archie


 

[Jim Sherma]

Looked through Joe Baush's photos of Woodcrest. Hopefully they were from before the tree thinning. Very tight looking course. Photos reminded me a bit of Doylestown CC, good and bad.


As far as the questions raised in the OP. I guess that the trade off of the brutal first hole in order to get the visually impressive 18th is one that the membership is content making. The current 9th is not the original 18th according to the old routing (1929 - http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/Woodcrest_2021/pages/page_4.html? ) shown in Joe's tour. The current 4th was the original 18th and the current 18th was the 14th in the original routing. Furthermore, on the old routing it appears that the clubhouse overlooked the original 18th green and there was no building overlooking the current 18th.


Maybe it's the case that the routing was changed in order to follow the original intention of the clubhouse overlooking the home hole and the re numbering of the holes paid service to that?

[archie_struthers]

 


Good stuff Jim but in the immortal words of Closeau 'but of course". They flipped the nines to take advantage of clubhouse expansion and created a monstrous routing issue. Both the first and 18th are brutally difficult for 90% of your patrons.


Sometimes you need to lead the sheep!

[Kalen Braley]

I'm not trying to throw shade on this, but that pond on 18 is only a 50 yard carry.  I get the last hole being a tough par, but how is it in the unfinishable category?  Even if you put one in and took a drop from the fairway, its still just a flip wedge 80 yard shot to the middle of the green.

[Mike Worth]

I'm not trying to throw shade on this, but that pond on 18 is only a 50 yard carry.  I get the last hole being a tough par, but how is it in the unfinishable category?  Even if you put one in and took a drop from the fairway, its still just a flip wedge 80 yard shot to the middle of the green.

Rebuttal:  Not throwing shade back (LOL) But


1) it requires a very precise drive otherwise you’re in the rough


2) The second shot is normally a long iron or fairway wood from a downhill lie with a very defined not overly large landing area surrounded by rough. 


3). If you get past those first two things (i’m usually in my pocket by then) then you have to navigate the pond.


I mean, yeah I could finish the hole but I’m not taking anything more than 8 or 9.


It’s in my top 3 least liked holes of my entire life. Wachesaw East #18 and Inniscrone #17 ate the other two.

[Ken Moum]

1) it requires a very precise drive otherwise you’re in the rough


2) The second shot is normally a long iron or fairway wood from a downhill lie with a very defined not overly large landing area surrounded by rough. 


3). If you get past those first two things (i’m usually in my pocket by then) then you have to navigate the pond.


I mean, yeah I could finish the hole but I’m not taking anything more than 8 or 9.


It’s in my top 3 least liked holes of my entire life. Wachesaw East #18 and Inniscrone #17 ate the other two.

Mike I just looked at the scorecard and Google Earth and I have to say your position makes sense to me.


It's ~550 yards, with a 23-yard-wide fairway and a pond in front of the green.... Yikes.


Even from the tees I'd be playing it's 431, it's about 340 or so to the layup. 


At age 74 on courses with lots of green grass, I can't get it over 200 any more.  So I'd have to hit that narrow fairway TWICE with very good shots or I'm doomed trying to lay up perfectly, probably out of the rough. Or...as I've seen in a few times from other golfers in AZ at Ocotillo GC, it's a fourth shot layup and THEN trying to negotiate the pond.


I despise finishing holes like that.

[Kalen Braley]

Just measured it on Google Earth and one could hit a 150 7 iron, 3 times, and be left with a  sub 100 yard wedge to the green with a chance at par and very doable bogey while risking relatively little.

But that ego thou....that ego.   

P.S.  Yes I haven't played this hole, but I have played many like it.  Tough par, but very doable bogey if you can just resist...

[archie_struthers]

 


Thanks for the replies !  I’m not a formulaic guy by nature but the “gentle handshake” as a starting hole usually works for me. Particularly at a member club that wants people to hang around and eat and drink


So let’s weigh the pros and cons:


You get to watch your mates finish the last hole !
 
Cons


Lose balls first shot of day
Pace of play impacted from start


Scores lower on front nine


Many people pick up or make big score on 18.    Bummer

[Ken Moum]

Many people pick up or make big score on 18.    Bummer

For me, this is the big issue.  The stroke-play mentality that the finisher needs to be epic is silly on a members' course, and even sillier on a daily fee course.


I've played a couple of AZ daily-fee courses that have closing holes that make me crazy.  Superstition Springs has a finisher that's 430+ from the one-up tees and 388 from the tees they call Middle.


It's OB left, creek right, then the creek crosses the fairway at about 150 out, runs up the left side and crosses back 80 yards out where it continues to the green.


There's some room, but  mostly it leaves players with a long second over two creeks with trouble on both sides.  I've played it several times, paired with strangers, and I'm the only one I've ever seen finish it, and I laid up twice, then got up and down for par.


Almost as bad is Ocotillo Golf Club where all three of nines requires an approach over water, probably a long one.  And I have seen guys hit a mediocre drive, attempt to lay up, miss hit their layup and have to lay up again.  Then sometimes hit the four shot in the water meaning BIP.


I CANNOT understand why anyone would build a daily-fee course that almost guarantees half or more of the golfers will leave with an X on the last hole.


It's not as if the PGA Tour is going to show up next week.

[archie_struthers]

 




Ken , you are so right about hard closing holes , only works on occasion.


I hope Woodcrest CC's  new owners learn that pace of play and an easier routing make for more money in their pockets. Views of players finishing is nice but secondary !