When have you ever been surprised?

[Mark_Fine]

By an architect’s work that looked TOTALLY DIFFERENT from what you would expect to see from that architect?  For example have you ever played a Fazio course or a C&C course or a …. design and said, “I can’t believe that course was designed by that architect”!  I have played a lot of courses and I am struggling to provide a good surprise example. 

 

[Joel_Stewart]

I was surprised two weeks ago how good the conditions are at Chicago GC and then shocked that the superintendent is only 28 years old.


As for architecture this year, Mammoth Dunes is quite the site. I'm not sure who else could have thought of something that big in scale?


I haven't played Congaree, but many people are surprised that its from Tom Fazio.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I was surprised two weeks ago how good the conditions are at Chicago GC and then shocked that the superintendent is only 28 years old.


As for architecture this year, Mammoth Dunes is quite the site. I'm not sure who else could have thought of something that big in scale?


I haven't played Congaree, but many people are surprised that its from Tom Fazio.

Interesting, when I saw the title of this thread, my first thought was Congaree. It looked nothing like his other courses. The routing seems to be his but the look was nothing like any of his other courses.

[Mark_Fine]

Joel and Tommy,
I am playing Congaree on Tuesday and I was thinking the same thing you are.  That was part of the reason for the thread.  I hope I am surprised.  I will let you know.

[Ronald Montesano]

Literary critic that I am not, I find this sort of exercise to be challenging.


As you play The Golf Club, you are sorta surprised it is a Pete Dye course if you don't know going in. Friend told me that PD came back 30-40 years after, and asked the club if he could redo a few things, as he had learned a bit over the years. That's the essence of the challenge for me: when in the architects career did the course come about.


As you played the departed Charlotte Golf Links, you were fairly surprised that it belonged to Tom Doak and Jim Urbina. As you read Tom's book, Getting To 18, you understood why. Sometimes external factors (for worse or better) impact an architect's trace.


They say that Durand Eastman was a marvelous layout, and it was one of RTJ's earliest. It was butchered by politicians, so if you want early, municipal RTJ, head to Green Lake state park in Fayetteville, near Syracuse.


We had a local architect called William Harries. He built two marvelous courses (Sheridan Park and Brookfield) and a bunch of serviceable ones. How tied were his hands on all but two projects? Very tightly, I'd venture.

[Rob Marshall]

Literary critic that I am not, I find this sort of exercise to be challenging.


As you play The Golf Club, you are sorta surprised it is a Pete Dye course if you don't know going in. Friend told me that PD came back 30-40 years after, and asked the club if he could redo a few things, as he had learned a bit over the years. That's the essence of the challenge for me: when in the architects career did the course come about.


As you played the departed Charlotte Golf Links, you were fairly surprised that it belonged to Tom Doak and Jim Urbina. As you read Tom's book, Getting To 18, you understood why. Sometimes external factors (for worse or better) impact an architect's trace.


They say that Durand Eastman was a marvelous layout, and it was one of RTJ's earliest. It was butchered by politicians, so if you want early, municipal RTJ, head to Green Lake state park in Fayetteville, near Syracuse.


We had a local architect called William Harries. He built two marvelous courses (Sheridan Park and Brookfield) and a bunch of serviceable ones. How tied were his hands on all but two projects? Very tightly, I'd venture.

I grew up playing Durand Eastman. $7 got the annual permit and then $.50 a round. 10 holes on the front and 8 on the back nine. Rumors were that Walter Hagen played there when he lived in Rochester. Great place for a kid to learn the game. The original course had been modified before I started playing there and was modified a few times after that. It’s now 9 and 9. I probably haven’t played there in 25 or 30 years.

[Tom_Doak]

Dismal River - Jack Nicklaus
Ballybunion New - Robert Trent Jones
Radrick Farms - Pete Dye


Radrick was Pete trying to be like RTJ, before he found his own voice.

[Bill Gayne]

Strantz's True Blue and Caledonia. I really didn't care for any of my prior Strantz experiences at Royal New Kent, Stonehouse, and Tobacco Road. I really enjoyed the two Myrtle Beach courses.

[Dan_Callahan]

If I hadn't known beforehand, I never would've guessed that Olde Kinderhook was designed by Rees Jones.

[Brad Lawrence]

Strantz's True Blue and Caledonia. I really didn't care for any of my prior Strantz experiences at Royal New Kent, Stonehouse, and Tobacco Road. I really enjoyed the two Myrtle Beach courses.

I love RNK (Holes 1-17)and I thought True Blue was very high on fun factor.  Caledonia was a disappointment for me and maybe because I had heard so many great things.  Easily my least favorite Strantz course.  Just another sterile and forgettable layout in my opinion.  But Bulls Bay an hour south was amazing and my favorite Strantz.

[Jon Sweet]

I was surprised two weeks ago how good the conditions are at Chicago GC and then shocked that the superintendent is only 28 years old.


As for architecture this year, Mammoth Dunes is quite the site. I'm not sure who else could have thought of something that big in scale?


I haven't played Congaree, but many people are surprised that its from Tom Fazio.

Subtle brag. Props.

[Jon Sweet]

Strantz's True Blue and Caledonia. I really didn't care for any of my prior Strantz experiences at Royal New Kent, Stonehouse, and Tobacco Road. I really enjoyed the two Myrtle Beach courses.

I love RNK (Holes 1-17)and I thought True Blue was very high on fun factor.  Caledonia was a disappointment for me and maybe because I had heard so many great things.  Easily my least favorite Strantz course.  Just another sterile and forgettable layout in my opinion.  But Bulls Bay an hour south was amazing and my favorite Strantz.

Always liked Stonehouse when I first started playing golf and didn’t know anything about GC architecture. I dislike a few holes at RNK but on the whole like it quite a bit. Haven’t played his others and figure Tobacco Road and Royal New Kent are effectively the same so why drive the extra? If I ever venture to cali again I’ll seek the one out he did there but I’d prob just go play Pasa again. If somebody wants to pay my way at Torrey I might consider that but only if it were
Free.

[Rob Marshall]

Strantz's True Blue and Caledonia. I really didn't care for any of my prior Strantz experiences at Royal New Kent, Stonehouse, and Tobacco Road. I really enjoyed the two Myrtle Beach courses.

I love RNK (Holes 1-17)and I thought True Blue was very high on fun factor.  Caledonia was a disappointment for me and maybe because I had heard so many great things.  Easily my least favorite Strantz course.  Just another sterile and forgettable layout in my opinion.  But Bulls Bay an hour south was amazing and my favorite Strantz.

Always liked Stonehouse when I first started playing golf and didn’t know anything about GC architecture. I dislike a few holes at RNK but on the whole like it quite a bit. Haven’t played his others and figure Tobacco Road and Royal New Kent are effectively the same so why drive the extra? If I ever venture to cali again I’ll seek the one out he did there but I’d prob just go play Pasa again. If somebody wants to pay my way at Torrey I might consider that but only if it were
Free.

I think that sets a new record for shots taken at a course……

[Thomas Dai]

Herbert Fowler.
Seems like his courses are all somewhat different to one another. No particular obvious style so likely always a surprise on a first visit.
Atb

[Sean_A]

Herbert Fowler.
Seems like his courses are all somewhat different to one another. No particular obvious style so likely always a surprise on a first visit.
Atb

I recently played Berkshire Red. Hard to believe this very Colt or perhaps Simpson looking course was by the hand of Fowler. Although, I wonder if the builders are as responsible for the look as much as Fowler. When compared to Walton Heath it's a remarkably stark contrast. I think the difference in the look between the four courses is as much about the properties as it is about style. Here's the rub, there is only one Walton Heath. There are arguably several Berkshire type courses. It's interesting that Fowler's end of career work doesn't look nearly as unique as his first project. Did Fowler just give in to Colt style or recognize that the Colt style makes perfect sense for the landscape?

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

I agree with Sean that Walton Heath Old has a unique style whilst there are quite a few courses of the same style as Berkshire Red.


Was it proven definitively that Berkshire Red was all Fowler with no Simpson?

[Sean_A]

I agree with Sean that Walton Heath Old has a unique style whilst there are quite a few courses of the same style as Berkshire Red.

Was it proven definitively that Berkshire Red was all Fowler with no Simpson?

It is my understanding that Berkshire is 100% Fowler. I think the shaping of Franks Harris Bros is the reason why it is thought Simpson had something to do with Berkshire. Shit, FHB may have been just as influential as any British archie!

Ciao

[David Wuthrich]

My two have already been brought up


Conagree and Dismal River

[Gib_Papazian]

Surprised? No, absolutely shocked.


Not to reprise Tommy N.'s classic Damian "666" Pascuzzo swipe that lives in infamy, a former design associate of the Uncle Bob Graves firm and I were remodeling SLO Country Club on the Central Coast when we decided to vector off to Monarch Dunes in Nipomo for a look.


Fully expecting a housing project with a golf course jammed between rows of cookie cutter boxes, optimism was not high - especially because most of his offerings land between serviceable and "not as bad as I heard."


But we both loved it - and the former associate was genuinely shocked. The use of sandy ground, shaping and creative quirk were impossibly entertaining. Yes, some of the holes are routed between backyards on both sides, but there is enough width and interesting mounding to keep your attention on the shot at hand - and not the water buffalo, sunning on the patio in a one-piece tent.


The putting surface contours were as good as I've seen anywhere - so interesting we ran over to play Danian's short course out of pure curiosity, discovering a 12 hole par-3 layout every bit as interesting as the shorty at Bandon.


Is it possible "666" designed this treasure? At least once a year, I make a special trip, just to play it again . . . . I found the originality and intentional quirk extremely entertaining from start to finish.


It is obviously on a unique site, but the (2nd to) last architect I would have guessed had the ability to cough up a ride this fun was Damian - but it is terrific.


   

[John Kavanaugh]

I was surprised that despite giving it my best effort I still hate Pasatiempo. In the same vein I was surprised to enjoy Spanish Bay. I'm not surprised that 99% of the people on this site are wrong about both courses.

[Joel_Stewart]

I was surprised that despite giving it my best effort I still hate Pasatiempo. In the same vein I was surprised to enjoy Spanish Bay. I'm not surprised that 99% of the people on this site are wrong about both courses.

I wouldn't consider Pasatiempo to be polarizing but apparently there are panelists that don't like it because of its ranking. People come to Northern California and its last on the list to be played and then it gets to you because its a hard walk and a hard golf course. The fact that its public and 6-7 get a bad rap and viola, its downgraded in the rankings.


I like Spanish Bay as well.  Rumor going around is they are planning a major renovation. 


 

[Gib_Papazian]

Barny,


Saying you "hate" Pasatiempo is like saying Charlize Theron is ugly. It says more about the critic than the art being contemplated.


Please, I gotta know, what can you possibly hate about Pasatiempo?


Or is this you playing intentional provocateur (like I'm one to talk), spewing heresy for fun?


Again, I grok why somebody might not like Spanish Bay - Garcia's solos in Dark Star can be fairly esoteric for the uninitiated - but Pasatiempo checks all the boxes for greatness in the Treehouse and damn if I can find much to cogently criticize without resorting to whining about irrelevant minutiae.


Hate ending a course with a Par-3? The weather is normally perfect and the cart-girl is a hot hippie chick from UC Santa Cruz . . . . what's not to like?

Did you 5-putt #8 or something?

[Greg Gilson]

Chambers Bay & RTJ2.


Unlike many here, I actually like much of RTJ2's work (my home club WAS The National, Australia & his "Old" Course is a personal favourite). However i love Chambers Bay & just do not see much typical RTJ2 stuff there at all.

[Ronald Montesano]

Greg,


We have an RTJ2, post-Chambers course in Lewiston, NY, called Seneca Hickory Stick.  All I ever say when I tee it up at SHS is, thank the lord it came after CB. A tremendous course.

[Ronald Montesano]

Strantz rankings: Tobacco Road and Caledonia are tied at the top; RNK and True Blue come next; Tot Hill Farm just behind in fifth; Stonehouse was a sorry mess. Haven't seen the others.


Fowler: Eastward Ho! was a stunner. You could play it as your last course and tell Peter of the Pearly Gates (or Satan of the lidless eyes) that you went out on top. Thanks to Keith Foster for bringing it back.


I surmise that, if we were to begin a thread for each of 20 architects (Which Coore feels least like a Coore?) we would clog the first page, but MAN WOULD IT BE FUN!!!!!