Percentage of Your Golfers that Really Care About Your Golden Age Architect?

[Mark_Fine]

99% or more just care about the quality of the golf course they are plying and have little if any clue who designed it.  Analogous to ski resorts or race tracks,…. Does anyone really care or could name who designed them.  They just want the place to be great?

An architect’s job is to make sure the playing experience is as good as possible for those who will play there (for new or existing courses) and sometimes for old ones bringing back what was once there is a great option and better then what has evolved.

When I joined my club I said to the ten member membership committee, “You have one of the best Flynn courses out there.”  They ALL looked at me like who is Flynn??  Probably less then 1% of the members had any clue or cared but I am happy to say that percentage is much higher now - At least 2 or 3 % 

[V_Halyard]

99% or more just care about the quality of the golf course they are plying and have little if any clue who designed it.  Analogous to ski resorts or race tracks,…. Does anyone really care or could name who designed them.  They just want the place to be great? Uh

An architect’s job is to make sure the playing experience is as good as possible for those who will play there (for new or existing courses) and sometimes for old ones bringing back what was once there is a great option and better then what has evolved.

When I joined my club I said to the ten member membership committee, “You have one of the best Flynn courses out there.”  They ALL looked at me like who is Flynn??  Probably less then 1% of the members had any clue or cared but I am happy to say that percentage is much higher now - At least 2 or 3 % 

Mark this is thought provoking. I have skied most of my life, many avid skiers have picture art of ski trail maps on their desks or walls. I can’t name one ski area designer. Towns and ski companies yes, but there must be some core of folks that can feel what routing and pitches make for great runs.  “Flynn, is he on our grounds crew?”

[Mark_Fine]

Yes there are architects who have designed the great ski resorts around the world and I am sure there is a small group of skiers like we have here that know who they are. 

[Joel_Stewart]

Yes there are architects who have designed the great ski resorts around the world and I am sure there is a small group of skiers like we have here that know who they are.

Architectural Digest did an article on them a few years ago. 


https://www.architecturaldigest.com/story/ski-resort-design


It discusses how hard or easy the slopes should be and the advantages of width or narrow. It also talks about how the slopes should be maintained.  There's quite a few similarities to golf architecture.   

[Ally Mcintosh]

Most ski resorts are quite different though. They have grown incrementally over time.


But like Vaughan, I am almost as obsessed with the layout of ski resorts as I am with golf courses.

[Mark_Fine]

And just like with golf architecture, there are remodelers who work on/add to/alter existing ski resorts.  Wonder if they get the same kind of love that “golf remodelers do”    But one thing for sure, no one knows their name either 


There are sooo many similarities to GCA. 

[Kalen Braley]

I suspect the same is true for prominent home builders too.  How many in here know the provenance of their home and all the little details?

GCA is a very very tiny niche in the big scheme of things, and I wouldn't' hold it against other members because they had zero interest in the history of their own course.

[Mike_Young]

I suspect the same is true for prominent home builders too.  How many in here know the provenance of their home and all the little details?

GCA is a very very tiny niche in the big scheme of things, and I wouldn't' hold it against other members because they had zero interest in the history of their own course.

Exactly.  Homebuilders, attorneys, doctors and any other field is the same. 

[Ally Mcintosh]

I suspect the same is true for prominent home builders too.  How many in here know the provenance of their home and all the little details?

GCA is a very very tiny niche in the big scheme of things, and I wouldn't' hold it against other members because they had zero interest in the history of their own course.

Exactly.  Homebuilders, attorneys, doctors and any other field is the same.

Careful Mike, you’re pretty close to likening GCA to a profession there…

[V_Halyard]

Most ski resorts are quite different though. They have grown incrementally over time.

But like Vaughan, I am almost as obsessed with the layout of ski resorts as I am with golf courses.

In Denver, for decades, GART Brothers was a massive ski and outdoor retailer. They had an annual mega sale called “Sniagrab”.  “Bargains” spelled backwards. They ran a big ad in every national skiing magazine and would attract people from across the country. Two buddies and I went to the sale for a couple years and had a ball. Drove 11 hours from Wisconsin. We idiots actually bought cases of Coors beer thinking that it was cool because we couldn’t get it in our state.

They sold to a chain, Sports Authority, kept key golf and ski retail relationships, and carved out a nest of boutiques  named Colorado Ski and Golf”
It was a dream store… always swarming with deals for Sunday links hackers, ski bums and families one-stop shopping for armfuls of platinum level custom fit Ping and Mizuno irons, Taylor Made drivers and Atomic Race ski boots, all on the same visit. They seemingly struck a vein of demographic gold. In the early days when things were actually printed on paper, this was also a one stop shop for an arcane collection of lllustrated ski trailmaps, Golf paintings and golf course routings. 

That was some years ago, and I cannot say I know how the story transitioned, but at some point The GART brothers sold to Colorado Ski and Golf to Vail/Epic, so one might assume that Business was going well.
Once we tasted the horror of Coors, we were lucky enough to sell the cases to other Wisconsinites who still thought that drinking a beer you couldn’t get in Wisconsin was cool.  I have since gotten over drinking Coors.
We all have regrets in life…

[Sean_A]

Most ski resorts are quite different though. They have grown incrementally over time.

But like Vaughan, I am almost as obsessed with the layout of ski resorts as I am with golf courses.

In Denver, for decades, GART Brothers was a massive ski and outdoor retailer. They had an annual mega sale called “Sniagrab”.  “Bargains” spelled backwards. They ran a big ad in every national skiing magazine and would attract people from across the country. Two buddies and I went to the sale for a couple years and had a ball. Drove 11 hours from Wisconsin. We idiots actually bought cases of Coors beer thinking that it was cool because we couldn’t get it in our state.

They sold to a chain, Sports Authority, kept key golf and ski retail relationships, and carved out a nest of boutiques  named Colorado Ski and Golf”
It was a dream store… always swarming with deals for Sunday links hackers, ski bums and families one-stop shopping for armfuls of platinum level custom fit Ping and Mizuno irons, Taylor Made drivers and Atomic Race ski boots, all on the same visit. They seemingly struck a vein of demographic gold. In the early days when things were actually printed on paper, this was also a one stop shop for an arcane collection of lllustrated ski trailmaps, Golf paintings and golf course routings. 


That was some years ago, and I cannot say I know how the story transitioned, but at some point The GART brothers sold to Colorado Ski and Golf to Vail/Epic, so one might assume that Business was going well.
Once we tasted the horror of Coors, we were lucky enough to sell the cases to other Wisconsinites who still thought that drinking a beer you couldn’t get in Wisconsin was cool.  I have since gotten over drinking Coors.
We all have regrets in life…

Hey, on hot day any cold beer will do!

Ciao

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

<5%.
The majority of our members want the golf course green and mowed, that's about it.


Perhaps they are the happier golfers?
I see excessive watering, potential for  mud balls in the fairway all summer long, damp ,soft fringes to greens designed for running the ball up onto the greens.
I see horrible mow lines that have compensated the growth of trees and eliminated the architects original intents.
Needless additions of frivolous ornamental flower beds.
I see Langford and Moreau looking down on me asking me to do something about it.......but no one cares


Other than that......I enjoy it

[Kyle Harris]

Max Behr was correct.

The less evident the hand of man, the more willing we are to accept the feature.

I can't think of a single ski sloped I've skied that felt designed. Seems to me whomever laid those out had no ego they wished to scratch through laying out a ski run.

[Peter Pallotta]

Max Behr was correct.
The less evident the hand of man, the more willing we are to accept the feature.
I can't think of a single ski sloped I've skied that felt designed. Seems to me whomever laid those out had no ego they wished to scratch through laying out a ski run.

Ironically, no skier has ever been asked or expected to 'really care' about a ski run -- only to like it well enough to enjoy the day and come back another time.

Behr's prattling on about 'hiding the hand of man' seems to have proven quite subtle and self-serving.

Along with a few other early architect-writers, he so effectively highlighted the architect's 'critical' role and promoted the architect's 'rare' skill-set that still today we're being called to bow our heads in gratitude for their selfless service.

I knew Behr was a genius, but to manage to 'spin' egomaniacs into paragons of humility is quite the feat indeed!!

[Kalen Braley]

Well let face it, ski resort architects basically get a free pass because thier designed surface is completely obscured under several feet of snow... 

And if its a bad snow year, you can't blame that on them right?  Unlike if a golf course has poor turf conditions, crap bunkers, or shit greens, they probably still gonna blame it on the designer. 

[Gib_Papazian]

Over the nearly 40 years I've devoted to this arcane subject - and being a 47 year stalwart of a fairly well known club - I've seen the danger in having too many armchair architects and dabbler, wannabe "historians" running around the grillroom.


As a group, these are dangerous idiots with just enough knowledge to baffle affable Board members with their half-baked, unresearched recitations about this Golden Age guy or that one - angling for a seat on the Green Committee.


Let these don't-know-shit, ad hoc dabblers together to choose an architect and you've pretty well guaranteed the ham-handed hack with the best line of bullshit and star power will get the job, which is why courses Lake Merced and the Dunes Course at MPCC waste millions getting remodeled multiple times.     


It is better to have two or three members who have done a deep dive into the granularity - not only on the history of the club (like my friend Dave Normoyle does) - but also sharply focused familiarity with other works by the same dead guy and his drag pans.


Otherwise, you get a politicized member meeting, with factions of idiots who pronounce Redan as "reeden" and don't know Alister Mackenzie from Aleister Crowley - except they played Pasatiempo once, so are therefore experts.


The further down the road I get, the smarter Garden City seems. Take the handful of members (likely they are familiar with the Treehouse) who have actually read and fully grok George Thomas' book, hire the best architect/historian they can coax in the door, disband the Green Committee, shut up and get out of the way.


Just because you read a textbook on surgery does not qualify you to remove a pancreas. It is all well and good to have a well-educated membership on the fine points of golf architecture, but only if the egomaniacs are not allowed to run wild.


Olympic churned through five architects, just in my time - and even then, one former Green Chair (and our illustrious Historian) ended up badgering Weiskopf with so many suggestions, I'm surprised Tempestuous Tom didn't rent a boat on Lake Merced and give him the Freddo treatment.   


 

[Pete_Pittock]

Robertson and Digby-Jones designed the Cresta run at St Moritz.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

The " Golden Age Architect" debate  between Flynn and Park, Jr  aroused the Philadelphia golfing community  into a great debate for some time about 8-10 years ago. It was resolved in favor of Park as the club and the leading member had no documentation as to Philmont's architectural history ( "it looks like a Flynn") AND Joe Bausch's investigation of vintage newspapers which revealed Park's plans. Consequently, even if the new ownership used Flynn it its press release, the Flynn Cup still exists, Philmont is no longer invited and the leading member resigned.
I'm sure GCA members remember this matter.


https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,55475.0.html

[Brian Marion]

The further down the road I get, the smarter Garden City seems. Take the handful of members (likely they are familiar with the Treehouse) who have actually read and fully grok George Thomas' book, hire the best architect/historian they can coax in the door, disband the Green Committee, shut up and get out of the way.


100%
 

[Mike_Young]

The further down the road I get, the smarter Garden City seems. Take the handful of members (likely they are familiar with the Treehouse) who have actually read and fully grok George Thomas' book, hire the best architect/historian they can coax in the door, disband the Green Committee, shut up and get out of the way.


100%
 

The only thing worse is the member who goes to one of the destination golf resorts, reads a magazine article on golf design and is in a position of some power at their club.  They can do more damage than one can fix...I'm amazed at how  some lawyers and doctors can become an expert when it comes to golf design in less than a week sometimes...

[Ryan Hillenbrand]

I wonder if there is a personality type that gets into GCA? I'm a closeted introvert who loves history and is rarely concerned with the competition part of golf.  Most of my friends like "guys weekends", gambling and grinding over their golf games, and have little interest in architecture. Though some do like list chasing.


Then there are the "equipment guys". They can tell you all about kick points and lie angles - and my eyes just glaze over.

[Brian Marion]

I wonder if there is a personality type that gets into GCA? I'm a closeted introvert who loves history and is rarely concerned with the competition part of golf.  Most of my friends like "guys weekends", gambling and grinding over their golf games, and have little interest in architecture. Though some do like list chasing.


Then there are the "equipment guys". They can tell you all about kick points and lie angles - and my eyes just glaze over.

For me, it’s the “why”.


Why is that green shaped that way?


Why is the bunker/fairway canted that way?


I like nothing more than seeing a feature and learning why it’s exists.


The fun of golf, there’s nuance enough for everyone to find a niche.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Unless the course was designed by a really big name architect, I doubt that most golf golfers really care.  At my club in AZ , our 3 courses were not designed by really big names- 18 holes by Arthur Hills/Keith Foster in '92, 27 holes by Dick Bailey in '02 and 9 by Tom Schroeder in '18 . None of my guests over a 10 year period ever asked who designed the courses.

[V_Halyard]

Most ski resorts are quite different though. They have grown incrementally over time.

But like Vaughan, I am almost as obsessed with the layout of ski resorts as I am with golf courses.

In Denver, for decades, GART Brothers was a massive ski and outdoor retailer. They had an annual mega sale called “Sniagrab”.  “Bargains” spelled backwards. They ran a big ad in every national skiing magazine and would attract people from across the country. Two buddies and I went to the sale for a couple years and had a ball. Drove 11 hours from Wisconsin. We idiots actually bought cases of Coors beer thinking that it was cool because we couldn’t get it in our state.

They sold to a chain, Sports Authority, kept key golf and ski retail relationships, and carved out a nest of boutiques  named Colorado Ski and Golf”
It was a dream store… always swarming with deals for Sunday links hackers, ski bums and families one-stop shopping for armfuls of platinum level custom fit Ping and Mizuno irons, Taylor Made drivers and Atomic Race ski boots, all on the same visit. They seemingly struck a vein of demographic gold. In the early days when things were actually printed on paper, this was also a one stop shop for an arcane collection of lllustrated ski trailmaps, Golf paintings and golf course routings. 


That was some years ago, and I cannot say I know how the story transitioned, but at some point The GART brothers sold to Colorado Ski and Golf to Vail/Epic, so one might assume that Business was going well.
Once we tasted the horror of Coors, we were lucky enough to sell the cases to other Wisconsinites who still thought that drinking a beer you couldn’t get in Wisconsin was cool.  I have since gotten over drinking Coors.
We all have regrets in life…

Hey, on hot day any cold beer will do!

Ciao

ha. that was the problem, on further review, that Coors wasn't actually beer.

[V_Halyard]

Yes there are architects who have designed the great ski resorts around the world and I am sure there is a small group of skiers like we have here that know who they are.

Architectural Digest did an article on them a few years ago. 


https://www.architecturaldigest.com/story/ski-resort-design


It discusses how hard or easy the slopes should be and the advantages of width or narrow. It also talks about how the slopes should be maintained.  There's quite a few similarities to golf architecture.

Joel, thanks for this.