[John Kavanaugh]

Digest does a good job pushing articles into my inbox. Top 100 public was there this morning.


https://www.golfdigest.com/gallery/americas-100-greatest-public-courses-ranking?utm_medium=email&utm_source=100321&utm_campaign=hitlist&utm_content=DM21826&uuid=01d2e00d-55a3-45dd-a4d7-f1e8a789688c


First of all congrats to Jeff Brauer. I'm afraid I don't always value his friendship on a professional level to the degree that it deserves.


I know bits and pieces but can't quite get my head around the fall of Rustic Canyon. It is by far my favorite of the affordable four minus one venues.

[MCirba]

It's basically a high-end resort course listing, with emphasis on eye-popping visuals and resistance to scoring.

[John Kavanaugh]

It's basically a high-end resort course listing, with emphasis on eye-popping visuals and resistance to scoring.

Pebble doesn't resist score while set up in resort mode.


I do agree that it feels like many second courses are pigeon holed in for effect. The exception being Torrey North.

[Pete_Pittock]

I tagged the list onto the end of this thread on 9/20 because someone asked when it was coming out https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,69674.0.html, and on the same day referenced it on a thread about The Loop..
Very few responses

[Peter Pallotta]

I think for most of us (without a vested interest or an axe to grind) the micro discussions have long grown stale, e.g. whether Course X should be in 66th or 82nd or 95th place. If I never hear another word -- pro or con -- about Rustic Canyon or Tobacco Road it won't be soon enough. The trouble is, the potentially more interesting macro-discussion, e.g. if/when Pacific Dunes will knock off Pebble for top spot and what that'll represent, wouldn't in the end be all that interesting either; we don't seem built for that kind of talk around here.

[Pete_Pittock]

usually more discussion when the list is included on subject line

[Tom_Doak]

Pacific Dunes did, in fact, nudge briefly ahead of Pebble Beach on several rankings a few years ago, only to fall back again after the most recent US Open at Prbble.


So, it really signified nothing.


I don’t expect it to happen in the long term.  Pebble is a great course, its position had been established for much longer, and it’s on TV every year.  It’s locked in, just like Sand Hills is locked in as the best modern course, with zpacific again junior to it.  It’s good company to be in. 

[Tim Martin]

There are some terrific modern courses that will get their due as time marches on. I think the lack of both club and tournament history is seen as a negative by many when stacked up against the Golden Age darlings. It’s tough to develop too much of either if a course was only built in the last twenty five years or so.

[Joel_Stewart]

The magazines don't care about discussions as long as they have clicks. GD has over 200 million clicks when the top 100 is released.  That drives revenue.


The magazine lists, especially GD are subjective and as we know, the panelists who are not trained or paid can show favoritism or bias toward a certain course or architect.   

[John Kavanaugh]

not especially GD

[Jason Thurman]

We know all the talking points of that discussion already, don't we? It's 75% bitching about courses that are overrated, and 25% bitching because a darling course doesn't get its due. 100% bitching either way.


It would be fun for everyone to post what they think the top 10 should actually be. It's pretty easy to yell "Overrated!" eight times, but a little harder to offer your own rating and then listen to everyone else bitch about it.

[Ally Mcintosh]

OK Jason, within the spirit of your last question, here are my Top-10 in Ireland (I am not qualified to rate the Top-10 in the World. To be honest, I doubt any but a handful are):


1. Portrush
2. Portmarnock
3. Lahinch
4. Ballybunion
5. RCD
6. County Louth
7. St. Patricks
8. Carne Wild Atlantic Dunes
9. The European
10. The Island


Tell me why I’m wrong and I’ll tell you why I’m not.

[Jonathan Cummings]

No Waterville?

[Niall C]

OK Jason, within the spirit of your last question, here are my Top-10 in Ireland (I am not qualified to rate the Top-10 in the World. To be honest, I doubt any but a handful are):


1. Portrush
2. Portmarnock
3. Lahinch
4. Ballybunion
5. RCD
6. County Louth
7. St. Patricks
8. Carne Wild Atlantic Dunes
9. The European
10. The Island


Tell me why I’m wrong and I’ll tell you why I’m not.

Ally

No Rosses Point ? Is that because of the changes in recent years ? 

Niall

[V_Halyard]

It's basically a high-end resort course listing, with emphasis on eye-popping visuals and resistance to scoring.

Mike, I think you heard this as well but I recall these interesting tidbits that I have heard more than a few times from members of the GD panel and others in the rater/panelist community at large re- the Pac Dunes vs. Pebble.

1: Generational
"My dad has never heard of Pacific Dunes. He has seen Pebble glamorized on TV his entire life, and has wanted to play Pebble... his entire life."

2: They can't take culturally cart-attached Dad/Relative/Friends to the walking only Pac Dunes.
I make the determination "cart-attached" as Keisers do allow for carts with medical documentation.
Are these a small sample or the swing votes?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Waterville is a cracking course but I think the design doesn’t work quite as well with the land as a few of the other courses above it.


Rosses Point: I love the subtlety of Colt’s work there.


They’d be my next two. Enniscrone & Tralee not far behind them.


Carlow is the best inland course for me although Adare is the best modern, both before and after the redesign.

[Jason Thurman]

OK Jason, within the spirit of your last question, here are my Top-10 in Ireland (I am not qualified to rate the Top-10 in the World. To be honest, I doubt any but a handful are):


1. Portrush
2. Portmarnock
3. Lahinch
4. Ballybunion
5. RCD
6. County Louth
7. St. Patricks
8. Carne Wild Atlantic Dunes
9. The European
10. The Island


Tell me why I’m wrong and I’ll tell you why I’m not.

I've only pined and hoped to go to Ireland, never actually been. So it's hard for me to critique this, but I appreciate the stab.


As a guy who has seriously studied itineraries for a trip in the next summer or two, my first thought is that County Down seems low and I just can't imagine Ballybunion as anything worse than third. But again, I have no idea what I'm talking about.


The US Top 100 list from the OP, on the other hand, is something I feel pretty qualified to comment on. I've played 12 of the top 20 according to Digest. If I could overhaul the Top 10, I'd go something like:


1. Pebble Beach
2. Pacific Dunes
3. Bandon Trails
4. No. 2
5. The Ocean Course
6. Prairie Club Dunes
7. Sawgrass
8. Shadow Creek
9. Arcadia South
10. Bethpage Black

And even that list is total nonsense. It certainly doesn't reflect my list of favorites, but it does look a little more like how I think the Top 10 of a national publication should look. Still, I get the same feeling I get when I look at an actual national publication's list - specifically, that anyone who consults this list should have just asked me where to play instead.

[Ally Mcintosh]

The US Top 100 list from the OP, on the other hand, is something I feel pretty qualified to comment on. I've played 12 of the top 20 according to Digest. If I could overhaul the Top 10, I'd go something like:


1. Pebble Beach
2. Pacific Dunes
3. Bandon Trails
4. No. 2
5. The Ocean Course
6. Prairie Club Dunes
7. Sawgrass
8. Shadow Creek
9. Arcadia South
10. Bethpage Black

And even that list is total nonsense. It certainly doesn't reflect my list of favorites, but it does look a little more like how I think the Top 10 of a national publication should look. Still, I get the same feeling I get when I look at an actual national publication's list - specifically, that anyone who consults this list should have just asked me where to play instead.

And I guess that’s the point, Jason. ALL magazine lists are utter codswallop because they are just a mish-mash of individual opinions that cancel each other out and then drive more group think in to the next lot of individual opinions.


So the truest lists are those of individuals. And the best use of them are from those who understand the individual enough to realise the tastes and biases.

[Dan_Callahan]

Rosses Point: I love the subtlety of Colt’s work there.

They’d be my next two. Enniscrone & Tralee not far behind them.

Enniscrone and Rosses Point are the two that I've played that I'd have a hard time keeping out of my top 10. I'm excited to play St. Patrick's next summer, along with Portstewart ... both new plays for me that I think I'll love.

The course that is never mentioned but is very high on my list is Narin & Portnoo. There are a few bland, flatish holes (same is true at Enniscrone), but its best holes are really, really great.

[Mike Hendren]

Just to stir things up a bit, I would not walk across the street to be comped at Sentry World. 

I do have a lot of time for the Hill Course at French Lick which didn't register.


Bogey

[Gib_Papazian]

TD,


Nice use of Shakespearean, existential nihilism . . . . . . to paraphrase Triumph the Insult Comic Dog - on whether Pac Dunes sneaks ahead of Pebble Beach for 10 seconds means anything - the correct response is "Who gives a shit?"


This jockeying for position by splitting hairs passed the idiotic sign 100 miles ago - and now approaches pointless irrelevancy.


And would somebody explain to the puppet-masters at Condom Mask that not one person buys the magazine to find out if Oakland Hills has surpassed Oak Hill or Oak Tree on the GD list for best golf courses with tedious names.


That stated, it is nice our panel - by rightly downgrading my beloved Lake Course - finally ended the rudderless tinkering and hired a design team with taste for a change. Maybe not my very first choice, but Gil, Shac and The Emperor is a pretty tough team to bring into battle.


So we can appropriately thank our panel . . . . . even if the Grillroom Boo Birds got their panties and tail in a twist.


In the end, I think dividing the list by Top 10, Top 20 etc etc made a lot more sense - and less susceptible to the capricious vagaries of what amounts to a panel of knowledgeable amateurs, no matter how well versed . . . . . which admittedly includes me.


Looking at the current "Top 10," one could make a perfectly well reasoned, cogent argument that ANY of those 10 belongs at #1, so in pointlessly ascertaining which supermodel is better looking, I shall defer back to Triumph the Dog. 


 


     

[Jason Thurman]

Ally, agreed.


It might actually be really interesting to read a recurring column in which a well-traveled golfer offers their personal Top 25 or something like that. I'd read that as a monthly installment. Meanwhile, these mags publish lists every year or two and nobody really seems to care.


I do think it's a shame that we spend so much time on this site talking about "Best" and so little time talking about "Favorite." And I think that's a contributing factor to the whole "Lists don't stimulate discussion" problem. Like, music would be really boring to discuss if everyone's Top 25 albums just listed stuff like Sgt Pepper's and Zoso and Pet Sounds or whatever. Part of what makes it so endlessly entertaining is that a person who loves and understands music can still have scorching hot takes. I told a music-loving buddy Saturday night that "Carbon Leaf has the best song called 'The Boxer.'" He laughed and thought about it and might even agree with me. But when I tell golfing buddies that I like Prairie Club Dunes a little more than I like Prairie Dunes, they act like they're worried about me.


Also, great use of the word "codswallop."

[Ira Fishman]

A couple of weeks ago I spent a couple of days working my way through the recently published Rolling Stone list of the 500 Greatest Songs. I sampled several that meant nothing to me. Some I thought were terrific; some not so much. I am one who believes that the analogy between music and gca has quite a bit of merit. However, I could survey all 500 songs without leaving my armchair. When choosing golf courses, the cost in time and dollars is quite a bit higher obviously. Consequently, I will pay more attention to the recommendations here than magazine rankings even when under the supervision of Ran.


In other words, all lists are just lists unless as stated one knows the tastes and preferences of the lister.


Ira

[Jim Sherma]

I liked the flat Eddie Hackett holes at Enniscrone better than most of the big-dune holes that were very pretty but also very one dimensional in that you either followed the fairway lines or you lost you ball in the steep walled gunch. The flat-ish par 5 7th is one of my favorite holes on the course.

Rosses Point: I love the subtlety of Colt’s work there.

They’d be my next two. Enniscrone & Tralee not far behind them.

Enniscrone and Rosses Point are the two that I've played that I'd have a hard time keeping out of my top 10. I'm excited to play St. Patrick's next summer, along with Portstewart ... both new plays for me that I think I'll love.

The course that is never mentioned but is very high on my list is Narin & Portnoo. There are a few bland, flatish holes (same is true at Enniscrone), but its best holes are really, really great.

[Tom_Doak]

It might actually be really interesting to read a recurring column in which a well-traveled golfer offers their personal Top 25 or something like that. I'd read that as a monthly installment. Meanwhile, these mags publish lists every year or two and nobody really seems to care.


I do think it's a shame that we spend so much time on this site talking about "Best" and so little time talking about "Favorite." And I think that's a contributing factor to the whole "Lists don't stimulate discussion" problem. Like, music would be really boring to discuss if everyone's Top 25 albums just listed stuff like Sgt Pepper's and Zoso and Pet Sounds or whatever. Part of what makes it so endlessly entertaining is that a person who loves and understands music can still have scorching hot takes.

For a few months last year, GOLF or GOLF DIGEST or both were doing that, presenting Tony Jacklin’s (or whomever’s) handwritten top ten courses.  But they were just lists, presented with zero commentary.  The only people who cared were the more obscure courses which made the list for personal reasons.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()