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Rob Marshall

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Re: When is taking a risk vs playing safe really worth it?
« Reply #50 on: September 29, 2021, 08:42:01 AM »
I made a statement to another poster wishing there was a Decade book. You used it to take a shot at the Decade system.
It (still) wasn't a shot.


Ah, implying that a guys system, a guy who works with PGA tour professionals can fit on a pamphlet isn't a shot. I don't know what I was thinking. I should probably just buy your "book". I hear it's the talk of the tour.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: When is taking a risk vs playing safe really worth it?
« Reply #51 on: September 29, 2021, 08:46:42 AM »
Grow up.

It simply doesn’t take long to explain his system (or mine). I’ve said here and elsewhere you can explain it in 30 minutes.

It’s not all that complicated. Others have almost explained it in a few sentences here.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2021, 08:49:17 AM by Erik J. Barzeski »
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

JMEvensky

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Re: When is taking a risk vs playing safe really worth it?
« Reply #52 on: September 29, 2021, 09:11:43 AM »
The most important thing is that every player has to define “risk” for themselves.


Jack Nicklaus told me his definition was being 100% sure that if he hit a good shot, it would work out.  Obviously he didn’t always hit a good shot, but he wouldn’t try a shot if he had any doubts about it.  I feel like Tiger had the same test.  He would try to hit all kinds of shots under pressure, but he had faith in those shots.


I’m guessing that ethic would have them being more aggressive than the generic formulas say.


Interesting. Pete Coleman caddied for Bernhard Langer for many years including the 1985 Masters told me this story.
Langer was way back on Saturday with a big decision to make on 13. He went with the 3 wood and thinned it. "It was always going in the creek" said Pete. It landed short of the water, skipped over and he made the 25-footer for a 3 - a break that in retrospect won him the tournament


After that Pete said, if he had, on a risky shot, a 4 in 10 chance or better of making it, Langer would generally go for it. Of course, as Pete pointed out "it helped that his short game was like mustard"
The context of the conversation was Chip Beck laying up in 1993 - when he was playing with Langer.
"I looked at Bernhard and said, he's not even trying to beat us"




Mike Clayton, thanks for that anecdote (and all the others you drop). I thought the same thing about Beck laying up as I was watching it.




Ben Hollerbach

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Re: When is taking a risk vs playing safe really worth it?
« Reply #53 on: September 29, 2021, 09:30:50 AM »
Similarly, would a bold, heroic option on the first hole be as tempting as the same option on 15-18 where a score or match might be decided?  I would guess most folks play the first few holes a bit defensively to avoid bogey, and that risk is more tempting later in the round if you are really thinking about it.  There is the old philosophy that if you make a bogey, then you need to make two birdies to get to -1.


Jack Nicklaus once spoke about the mentality that in any given round of golf you'll have a certain amount of good and bad. If you start off a round playing poorly he felt that he was getting the bad out of the way and the good was coming. It was a way for him to stay positive after a bad start. I like that mindset, but If I start off poorly there's still that bug in the back of my mind "what if this is the good?"


Even with driving ranges available at virtually every course, I often feel the need to ease into a round. Playing neutrally for the first couple of holes before I try and take on a big risk. If given a heroic option on the first hole, I would most likely not take it. Especially on a course I do not know well.


So much of a players strategy and decision making depends on the type of play that is occurring, specifically playing casually with internal goals vs. playing competitively against others.


For casual play, a player may be willing to take on more risk early as they may believe they can make it up later. At the same time, if they are near a threshold score (breaking 80) late in the round their risk profile might change as well. On pace to break 80, they would probably play more reserved late in the round trying to preserve their standings. Needing to make up a couple of shots, they'd be more willing to take on the risk. In their eyes an 81 is no worse than an 85.


Competitively it may change again, as each stroke seemingly matters more. Making up strokes after failed risk early is a more daunting task.


But, having a risk reward option early in the round could be a compelling feature of the course. It would be similar to a split play in Blackjack. Regardless if the split works or not, the player should play follow up hands with their same base strategy. But for many that is hard to do. A failed split that cost them more may lead them to play hyper conservative to prevent losing more, or hyper aggressive to try and make it back quickly. If the split works and they win on both hands, the advantage they've gained will either be something they try to preserve or risk for more.


This mentality allows the holes to follow a risk and reward hole to take on a different role, as players change the challenge profile of the hole on their own accord.

Mark_Fine

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Re: When is taking a risk vs playing safe really worth it?
« Reply #54 on: September 29, 2021, 10:06:05 AM »
Are there any great holes that don't present some kind of risk to receive the reward?  They might not all have many, if any, options to avoid the risk but there is always something about a great hole that makes it great and it usually has to do with some kind of challenge or problem to take on/overcome. 


At the same time, for some, even on a bland flat straight hole with no hazards the risk vs playing it safe might be to try to hit your driver off the tee knowing it could be topped or go anywhere vs safely hitting your trusty 5I down the middle and dealing with a much longer second (but at least it is play)  :D

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: When is taking a risk vs playing safe really worth it?
« Reply #55 on: September 29, 2021, 11:03:35 AM »
The most important thing is that every player has to define “risk” for themselves.


Jack Nicklaus told me his definition was being 100% sure that if he hit a good shot, it would work out.  Obviously he didn’t always hit a good shot, but he wouldn’t try a shot if he had any doubts about it.  I feel like Tiger had the same test.  He would try to hit all kinds of shots under pressure, but he had faith in those shots.


I’m guessing that ethic would have them being more aggressive than the generic formulas say.


Interesting. Pete Coleman caddied for Bernhard Langer for many years including the 1985 Masters told me this story.
Langer was way back on Saturday with a big decision to make on 13. He went with the 3 wood and thinned it. "It was always going in the creek" said Pete. It landed short of the water, skipped over and he made the 25-footer for a 3 - a break that in retrospect won him the tournament


After that Pete said, if he had, on a risky shot, a 4 in 10 chance or better of making it, Langer would generally go for it. Of course, as Pete pointed out "it helped that his short game was like mustard"
The context of the conversation was Chip Beck laying up in 1993 - when he was playing with Langer.
"I looked at Bernhard and said, he's not even trying to beat us"


Just for more context, I recall the Frank Beard book, "Pro" where he documented his year on tour in 1969. While I may be slightly off, his "risk" assessment seemed to be about 66% success rate before he would even consider it, i.e., twice as likely to succeed as to fail, as his minimum test, which always stuck with me.  He also noted that the biggest difference between top ams and pros was they could probably hit any given shot about 40% of the time vs his 70% of the time in pullling it off as he wanted to.  Not sure those percentage numbers are related, as its been years since I read the book.


Also, not sure what we take from that.  Is it a very similar philosophy, i.e. Jack 100% sure IF he hits it, Frank 66% based on how he usually hits it, or Langer, at 40%, knowing his short game can bail him out some vast percentage of the time?  Or, is Jack's philosophy a mark of why he was so much better at playing overall, and by legend/reports/stories, at thinking his way around the course?  Ben's anecdote about JN at least confirms that he was probably the best at keeping his demons at bay, compared to most golfers, IMHO.


And, note that these three examples using stats all come before Erik, Scott, or Broadie, who just fleshed out the data of how better players thought.  Lastly, wonder how much has changed over the last 40-50 years with better equipment?


I tend to think all things tend to even out, i.e., with better equipment, shot quality goes up, which sort of neutralizes the need to think, sort of like the 3 Pointer changing the NBA from a passing for the layup league to (more of.....nothing is absolute) a shoot from distance league.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: When is taking a risk vs playing safe really worth it?
« Reply #56 on: September 29, 2021, 11:35:14 AM »

I hate to sound dense, but what exactly are the 5 numbers at each distance signifying?  If you said in your post, I must have missed it.  It seems like the center of the has the highest values in general.  Thanks.

Strokes gained (or lost). If you want to find significance in a few hundredths of a stroke, be my guest: nobody's accurate enough to play for 1/3 of the fairway.



Erik,


Thanks, and I agree your stats sort of prove my working theory on this post, i.e., the gca mantra of risking hazards to gain a better angle on the approach has never been as good a play as those golden age books made it out to be.  And, while many here lament the passing of so called "Golden Age Design Principles" in fact, they probably morphed out of style for a reason, i.e., players and architects in the 1950's weren't dumb as stumps as some here presume......


It seems that being in the rough vs being in the fw adds about a quarter shot per hole(-0.12 vs + 0.12 =0.25 shots per attempted risk that misses the target and finds rough)  With 14 tee shots, that is up to 3.5 shots per round lost per round by taking risks, assuming all go bad.  If 1/3 to 1/2 tee shots went bad, it is still 1-2 shots per round statistically lost on average, indicating the risk generally isn't worth it.  For that matter, as you say, for the minimal gains of coming in from the "correct side" of the fw are so nominal playing for the middle (as most pros and top ams tell me) is obviously the best play.


Obviously, in specific situations, i.e., down 2 with 3 to play or whatever, the value of playing with more risk does go up.  And, just as obviously, there isn't any correlation in my mind between statistically playing to the middle of fw and the idea of "18 repetitive holes/aerial challenges.)  That is why designers have designed to favor shot patterns (i.e., fade, draw, high, low, spin, low spin) over actual hazard placement. 


It may also explain why the current in vogue "mile wide fairways" design mantra had gone out of style (if it was ever in, as I see most wide fw back in the day were sized to fit sprinkler coverage) means the last generation of designers may have had that right, as well.  Of course, your stats seem to be based on traditional design of 30-40 yard wide fw, and I guess time will tell how the ultra wide fw concept works into the future.  Hey, it might have worked 100-200 years ago....it's just that we are only assuming it will work well for the next 10-20 years in current conditions.


Lastly, I believe "strategy" is more nuanced than just hitting the left or right side of the fw, at least on the typical American course.  I agree angles matter more on fast and firm, and anticipating future water restrictions, think we all ought to design for the angle to the green since that is likely to come back (unless we want to build in some business for our future architect selves, LOL ;) [size=78%])[/size]
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As an example, I once asked Lanny Wadkins if the frontal opening meant much to him.  Not much he said....If he had it, and was between clubs for the approach it generally let him use the lesser club to putt uphill.  If he had to come over a bunker, he took the longer club and hit for more backspin from the back of the green, noting that it was possible for the architect to build up the back slopes a bit too much.  He would also look for any side slopes from middle to back where he could work the ball to the hole.


I also recall a 1980's Byron Nelson classic here in DFW.  For some reason, I was with Larry Mize and he watched Larry Nelson chip close on 18.  It didn't seem like much at the time, but Mize marveled at Nelson's shot, which got him into a playoff.  Mize said he didn't really have that shot in his bag, i.e., short swing with high spin) and would have had to play out further right.


Short version, strategy is more complex for good players than playing for the angle.  If they don't have it,  they start thinking of alternate shots types (again, spin, height, etc.) that accomplish the goal of getting near the pin.  Of course, they have the option of playing to a safer area (statistically, I bet that actually works out okay overall until the result is on the line) vs going at the pin, although many Tour Players tell me they have to go at nearly every pin for any chance to win.  And, as a result, the players with the best repertoire of shots tend to get the best results. 


In a sense, those who "Have to" play for angles are using it as a coping mechanism, which does make them valuable, in keeping it close in a match, as it allows one more way to play a hole.  But, statistically, I see the value isn't much, but then again, one stroke can make a difference in any match, so it if happens to be at the right time, that 0.25 shot value can go up to 1 full shot, and maybe millions of dollars.


But again, we reach to the pros as a design mantra?  I tend to think of club matches, slightly lesser skilled top ams, etc. in forming design theory. 

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: When is taking a risk vs playing safe really worth it?
« Reply #57 on: September 29, 2021, 11:42:03 AM »
Are there any great holes that don't present some kind of risk to receive the reward?  They might not all have many, if any, options to avoid the risk but there is always something about a great hole that makes it great and it usually has to do with some kind of challenge or problem to take on/overcome. 


At the same time, for some, even on a bland flat straight hole with no hazards the risk vs playing it safe might be to try to hit your driver off the tee knowing it could be topped or go anywhere vs safely hitting your trusty 5I down the middle and dealing with a much longer second (but at least it is play)  :D


Mark,


See my perhaps somewhat rambling thoughts above.  I believe your take is too much black and white.  We don't have to go from a bold risk to a flat hole with no hazards, do we?


I think good players sort of invent their options, even on a penal hole with hazards around all targets.  They still have to pick a shot pattern to fit it in between RTJ or Wilson flanking bunkers.  They still have to pick a club to the green and unless really small, aim for middle or edge, or at the far side with a gentle curve back to the middle (or if bold, flag).


Again, the formula does change as the ground gets fast and firm, which is always interesting to play for me (i.e., Scotland and Australia trips)  But basically, they are still inventing shots, figuring not how to back a shot up, but how much out in front they have to play for proper roll out (although, many would just play a Redan with a high cut rather than low draw, because in truth, with modern clubs, its probably a better option to hold the green)  And that said, while no one wants a steady diet of dart board golf (like the AZ swing of the PGA Tour for many years) I would guess that would be fun for all of us at least once in a while, no?



Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ben Hollerbach

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Re: When is taking a risk vs playing safe really worth it?
« Reply #58 on: September 29, 2021, 12:17:51 PM »
I tend to think all things tend to even out, i.e., with better equipment, shot quality goes up, which sort of neutralizes the need to think, sort of like the 3 Pointer changing the NBA from a passing for the layup league to (more of.....nothing is absolute) a shoot from distance league.


The 3-point analogy is a good one for historic thinking vs. modern statistical thinking. Even with the clear points advantage, for decades teams seemed to avoid the shot. Then the Warriors started shooting them all the time and teams realized that shooting 35% from 3-point was better than 50% from the field, changing everyone's game strategy.


This realization is occurring all over the game of golf, but the challenge in golf is extrapolating the skill of the pro's to the play of the amateurs. Some of the modern realizations and new strategies that have been derived from pro level statistical analysis do not translate with the same clarity to the 20 handicap. They have different challenges when they play and different goals around their play.


Ben Hollerbach

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Re: When is taking a risk vs playing safe really worth it?
« Reply #59 on: September 29, 2021, 12:26:13 PM »
Angles matter… when the ball is rolling. That often means on firm, fast courses (like at RM for the 2019 Presidents Cup) or for the higher handicappers who can't fly the ball to the target and stick it.

We did some calculations, and so did Lou. Here you go:





Erik,


It appears you have a sample of ~220,000 golf shots represented here, but who are the players. Is this all PGA Tour Shotlink Data or does it represent a wide range of player skills?


If its a wide range of skills, what does the trend look like for different skill levels?


Jason Topp

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Re: When is taking a risk vs playing safe really worth it?
« Reply #60 on: September 29, 2021, 01:05:50 PM »
Despite the data I find a hole that tempts more aggressive play more interesting than one that does not. I find that true even when looking through the lens of a DECADE type approach.  Sand Hills or Royal Melbourne tempt aggressive tee shots repeatedly and I find that fun even if I am simply trying to put the ball in play. Pete Dye’s draw/fade holes are another example.


These approaches to design have held up for a century at least.



Perhaps there is a more subtle way of looking at architecture that explains this experience while still acknowledging the data that Erik and others have developed?



Jeff_Brauer

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Re: When is taking a risk vs playing safe really worth it?
« Reply #61 on: September 29, 2021, 01:19:55 PM »
I tend to think all things tend to even out, i.e., with better equipment, shot quality goes up, which sort of neutralizes the need to think, sort of like the 3 Pointer changing the NBA from a passing for the layup league to (more of.....nothing is absolute) a shoot from distance league.


The 3-point analogy is a good one for historic thinking vs. modern statistical thinking. Even with the clear points advantage, for decades teams seemed to avoid the shot. Then the Warriors started shooting them all the time and teams realized that shooting 35% from 3-point was better than 50% from the field, changing everyone's game strategy.


This realization is occurring all over the game of golf, but the challenge in golf is extrapolating the skill of the pro's to the play of the amateurs. Some of the modern realizations and new strategies that have been derived from pro level statistical analysis do not translate with the same clarity to the 20 handicap. They have different challenges when they play and different goals around their play.


Ben,


I agree on both counts.  Broadie did a chart based on 513 shots of A and D player, and someone said he later had 15,000 shots in his data.  Erik has 22,000, and yes, I would like to know what players these are.


That said, as skill decreases, I would imagine the differentials between hitting the rough and hitting the fw do nothing but go up, i.e., suggest that despite perhaps wanting to take the risky shot, statistically, it is really a no win situation for mid handicap ams.  Broadie's stats show wider dispersion patterns on average for the D players, so aiming at one side of the fw, or a tucked pin really makes no statistical sense.  Not that they won't try, just for fun. 


And, again, I would bet that statistically, average golfers would be best served by aiming for the middle of the fw, and then aiming for the safest part of the green in almost all cases.  The only thing I can say for sure is that I have had some of my best "tough course" scores playing that way.  As the stats suggest for ams like me, even if I take a chance to get closer to the pin, even if I get as close as 6 feet, I probably only have a 50% chance of making that putt, and a 50+% chance of missing the green causing bogey or worse.


Jason,


I took every carry at RM the three times I played there.  That said, they were about 200 yards off the tee, and while great fun to see the ball soar over a hazard, I am not sure most of them represented an agressive play....just confidence I wasn't going to hit ground balls.  Ditto Sand Hills. I haven't been there in over 5 years, but my recollection was the wide fw were there as much to provide angle strategy as they were to provide an adequate area to hit the fw in what can be ferocious winds.  Add wind to fast and firm, and I think the DECADE type ideas really come into play.  Aim far left edge or more if the wind is blowing right.  So, yes, placement and aim are paramount off the tee on those kind of courses, just like old Scotland.


That said, I think the basic premise of this thread is to question the widespread assumption that these guys were strategic masters and that the courses have held up primarily due to their "hit it close to a fw hazard to get a better angle to the green" writings.  Maybe they hold up for prestige, maintenance, aesthetic, and/or other reasons. 




Carry fw bunkers kind of went out of style when the aerial game got better.  Those guys did set up angles nicely, and when the ball rolled more for all of us, the idea probably was great.  And, as I approach super senior status, it IS getting greater for me, but it isn't to set up a better shot to get at the pin.  Older golfers use the frontal opening just to get anywhere on the green.  Nowhere were those guys writing that the angle was meant for average golfers to have a better chance at birdies, as it was to give them a chance just to hit a green.  A great concept, yes, but a great strategic concept for modern golf?  Maybe not as much.




And frankly, as a pretty average golfer, and definitely more "woke" to strategic considerations than most, that is generally (with exceptions) how I play, and I have rarely heard ams talking about where to aim, angles, etc.  Add to that, of all the pros I know, they are award of angles, but again seem to know from experience, if not detailed stats, that it is still best to get it in the fw first and foremost.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jason Topp

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Re: When is taking a risk vs playing safe really worth it?
« Reply #62 on: September 29, 2021, 01:50:44 PM »
I have played Northland Country Club a lot the last two years (I joined as a National Member) and found the course extraordinarily interesting even though with tree removal, tee shots can for the most part, go anywhere.  I think it alters Erik's general approach although I am sure it could be adapted to take into account the setting.


The course sits on a pretty steep slope over Lake Superior.  As a result the greens tilt so much that an approach to ten feet can leave the player more likely to make a bogey than a birdie if he is above or even to the side of the hole.  If one tries to leave it below and miss-hits the shot, he can easily chip to ten feet above the hole and face the same problem as an approach - with a stroke added.  Every shot after the tee shot down to a 5 foot putt tests the player's ability to properly identify the risks he faces, choose a target and then execute.  One takes more of a risk the more aggressive he is with each shot. 


Temptation abounds at Northland and becomes more interesting with repeat play. 




Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: When is taking a risk vs playing safe really worth it?
« Reply #63 on: September 29, 2021, 02:06:15 PM »
Thanks, and I agree your stats sort of prove my working theory on this post, i.e., the gca mantra of risking hazards to gain a better angle on the approach has never been as good a play as those golden age books made it out to be.  And, while many here lament the passing of so called "Golden Age Design Principles" in fact, they probably morphed out of style for a reason, i.e., players and architects in the 1950's weren't dumb as stumps as some here presume......
I think that's pretty accurate. Also, when a top level player is hitting it 230… the width of their Shot Zone or shot pattern or distribution is narrower. So the modern-day "60 or 65 yards" might actually have been 40 or something back in 1921. Narrow up Shot Zones, and you can "fit" things into new/different places.

It seems that being in the rough vs being in the fw adds about a quarter shot per hole(-0.12 vs + 0.12 =0.25 shots per attempted risk that misses the target and finds rough)  With 14 tee shots, that is up to 3.5 shots per round lost per round by taking risks, assuming all go bad.  If 1/3 to 1/2 tee shots went bad, it is still 1-2 shots per round statistically lost on average, indicating the risk generally isn't worth it. For that matter, as you say, for the minimal gains of coming in from the "correct side" of the fw are so nominal playing for the middle (as most pros and top ams tell me) is obviously the best play.
I'd generally agree with that. Of course, if there's a big bunker or a penalty area right, then the proper aim line to center your distribution may be the left rough line, accepting that you might lose a little on shots on the balls in the rough, and gain a little on shots that find the fairway, but you won't lose a LOT by hitting it in the bunker or PA to the right.

Obviously, in specific situations, i.e., down 2 with 3 to play or whatever, the value of playing with more risk does go up.
Yes, all of these are about shooting the lowest average score, not "need a birdie now, and who cares if I make double!" That strategy can be determined, too, and it should be in certain situations like you said.

Lastly, I believe "strategy" is more nuanced than just hitting the left or right side of the fw, at least on the typical American course.  I agree angles matter more on fast and firm, and anticipating future water restrictions, think we all ought to design for the angle to the green since that is likely to come back (unless we want to build in some business for our future architect selves, LOL ;)
Not only that, but most designs aren't played exclusively by good players who fly the ball to the target and stop it there. Most designs, most golfers, need to worry more about angles because their ball rolls more.

My daughter is a +1 or so and she's learned (from me and experience) that the angles matter to her sometimes, like for example when she's going to have to hit a longer club into a par four green or something, or even a partial-wedge third shot on a par five.


Is this all PGA Tour Shotlink Data … ?
Yes. They fly the ball to the hole, generally, so angles don't really matter. Angles can matter when the ball is rolling. And the chart is from Lou, who worked with Dave and I for awhile before he began working with Scott.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Carl Nichols

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Re: When is taking a risk vs playing safe really worth it?
« Reply #64 on: September 29, 2021, 02:06:37 PM »

In essence, the theory goes that you should hit driver into a 65 yard wide window about 95% of the time. 5% of the time you'll be outside that and it'll cost you a penalty of some description (maybe). A 1 or 2 stroke penalty 5% of the time is worth it if you're 50 yards closer to the green 95% of the time, because that 50 yards closer is worth maybe 0.25 strokes per time. Then there is the slightly higher likelihood of being in the rough the further you hit it and everything and 65 yards is the point where it makes sense to go long. Scott's theory basically breaks down to:



Is 65 yards/95% of the time something like an average across all players?  My home course is very narrow, and my sense is that there are several holes where treeline-to-treeline is less than 65 yards.  I'll have to measure next time I'm out there. 

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: When is taking a risk vs playing safe really worth it?
« Reply #65 on: September 29, 2021, 02:10:20 PM »
Is 65 yards/95% of the time something like an average across all players?  My home course is very narrow, and my sense is that there are several holes where treeline-to-treeline is less than 65 yards.  I'll have to measure next time I'm out there.
Yes and no.

Poorer players tend to hit it shorter, so they don't hit it as far offline. So 65 yards often holds for them, too… but there are plenty of higher handicappers who are still young and 65 yards might not contain 50% of their tee shots.  :)

Scott's system "requires" (not the best word but I'm going with it) pretty solid play. If you're a 12 handicapper, adjusting your aim point by a few yards often isn't enough. There are situations in which, for example, some amateurs should almost aim to miss the green if they were looking to shoot the lowest average score. Or par fours where playing it in three shots might be advisable, despite it being a par four.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Kalen Braley

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Re: When is taking a risk vs playing safe really worth it?
« Reply #66 on: September 29, 2021, 02:46:42 PM »
Erik,

Thank for posting that graphic, its interesting stuff.  But as is discussed here almost daily, the pro game may as well be on the moon for as much as it applies to the every day joe, where angles still very much matter.

And as Gib noted, an average mid-teens capper can be middle of the fairway, 125 yards out in the garden spot, to a green light middle of the green pin and its still a challenge for them to consistently hit the green, much less get birdie, much less trying to do all that to a front pin from the rough while trying to fly a bunker.




Ben Hollerbach

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Re: When is taking a risk vs playing safe really worth it?
« Reply #67 on: September 29, 2021, 03:02:48 PM »
Erik,


When Lou put together the graphic using the Shotlink data, was anything done to normalize the results? For example, were outliers at a given position/distance removed from the calculations?


You previously mentioned that high handicap players can't generate enough spin and angles matter more to them, but at what point do the trends suggested in the PGA Tour graphic diminish? I'd imagine low handicap players would have similar trends to the pros, but at some point it would taper off. The average player's handicap is around 16, could we presume that less than half of players can generate enough spin to negate the importance of angles?








Jeff_Brauer

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Re: When is taking a risk vs playing safe really worth it?
« Reply #68 on: September 29, 2021, 04:30:46 PM »

In essence, the theory goes that you should hit driver into a 65 yard wide window about 95% of the time. 5% of the time you'll be outside that and it'll cost you a penalty of some description (maybe). A 1 or 2 stroke penalty 5% of the time is worth it if you're 50 yards closer to the green 95% of the time, because that 50 yards closer is worth maybe 0.25 strokes per time. Then there is the slightly higher likelihood of being in the rough the further you hit it and everything and 65 yards is the point where it makes sense to go long. Scott's theory basically breaks down to:



Is 65 yards/95% of the time something like an average across all players?  My home course is very narrow, and my sense is that there are several holes where treeline-to-treeline is less than 65 yards.  I'll have to measure next time I'm out there.


Carl,  I have extrapolated some data from Broadie's book, and copied what I believe below, regarding A, B, C and D players, on average.





Extrapolating from several sources, including Columbia University professor, Dr. Mark Broadie’s “Assessing Golfer Performance Using Golfmetrics,” we find, as would be intuitively expected, that higher handicap players generally have shorter and wilder tee shots, with directional degree of angle deviation over twice that of pro golfers, on missed shots, summarized below:


Pros - 275-325 Yards, 4 degrees standard deflection (about 8 degrees total)
Low handicap Ams - 248 yards, 5.4 deg. standard deflection (about 10 degrees total, leans slightly right)
Mid handicap Ams - 237 yards, 6.4 degree standard deflection (about 13 degrees total)
High handicap Ams - 216 yards, 8.1 degree deflection, 16 degrees total, leaning heavily right.  Keeping them in play requires up to 24 degrees right and only 16 degrees left.




Using Broadie’s and other stats, (with the standard disclaimer that “your results may vary”) I once estimated the “tree to tree” (or native to native) landing zone corridor width required for:


A players, total width for 99% "certainty" seems to be over 70 yards, although Broadie doesn't seem to think there is a gap between tour players and A level club players, so I am kind of making that one up.....


B players, total width for 99% "certainty" seems to be about 75 yards,


C players, total width for 99% "certainty" seems to be about 83 yards,


For D players,  for 92% "certainty" it would be 97 yards, 99% certainty, 120 yards, and 100% certainty.....Montana!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Joe Zucker

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Re: When is taking a risk vs playing safe really worth it?
« Reply #69 on: September 29, 2021, 04:45:55 PM »
Joe,


As to reducing "cost" I fully agree, having been an advocate for moderately deep bunkers that offer a chance of escape, whereas most here would clamor for bunkers that really blow up a score, knowing that from time to time, tour players will yell at a ball to "get in the bunker."  They also seem to like the idea of hazards being prone to being in a footprint, etc.  But, I'm with you.  I would be more likely to challenge sand knowing there is a good chance I may get up and down, and not being worried about ballooning to an 8 or something.


In that case, design is more about "setting up shot" for them to play, not punishing them.  In any case, when the hazard is OB or water (i.e., 2 strokes to potentially none) I bet any rational golfer would tend to just try to miss those, and that, even well before DECADE told them to, LOL.


Your point about only marginally increasing the chance of birdie is well taken, as well.  Even for pros, the make ratio inside the 20 foot distance is pretty small.   So, if you have a 20% chance of taking a 2 stroke penalty off the tee to gain a 5% chance of making a birdie, it doesn't seem right to try, unless the match is really on the line, i.e., last few holes. 


Granted, some golfers never learn and like the thrill of trying the near impossible, which I think we all do every once in a while..  That said, if very few actually do that, we should at least consider that long held mantras around here might have to be rethought a bit.


Yes, I agree with your thoughts Jeff.  My two examples of Pinehurst and St. Andrews occasionally challenge you with a bunker, but often they are challenging you with short grass.  As bad as some of the spots can be around those greens, when all you see is grass (and no water), I think it's a lot easier to be tempted.  An up and down may be unlikely, but a see of grass to a tough and tempting pin would lure me in more often.


Almost all of us love a good short par 3 and many great ones are penal without water.  You have a wedge or 9 iron and you want to go for it, then you kick yourself for making 4 on a 125 yard hole.  I'm guessing almost everyone aims for the center of the green at Sawgrass on 17.  Is that more fun?  I don't think so because the cost is so much higher.  You're just trying to survive because you know how bad it can be. A green with challenging bunkers/slopes can be more tempting because the downside is minimal. 


The upside and downside are not proportionate when water/OB is in play so angles matter even less. Safety is paramount and I can likely get on the green and two putt from a bad angle.  If I were designing a course and wanted to make angles important, I would limit obvious and difficult hazards.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: When is taking a risk vs playing safe really worth it?
« Reply #70 on: September 29, 2021, 05:06:58 PM »
Joe,


Again, agreed, and of course, I think all of us like variety, and as such, a bunker like the "Road Hole" bunker, especially on a short approach does make one think and affect strategy.  As an architect, I like the idea of getting players to play away from a bunker on a shot where they should relatively easily avoid it.


I can also envsion many courses where bunkers are benign, and golfer might expect that, fall asleep, and fail to consider the effects of the one that is deeper.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Michael Felton

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Re: When is taking a risk vs playing safe really worth it?
« Reply #71 on: September 29, 2021, 06:21:39 PM »

In essence, the theory goes that you should hit driver into a 65 yard wide window about 95% of the time. 5% of the time you'll be outside that and it'll cost you a penalty of some description (maybe). A 1 or 2 stroke penalty 5% of the time is worth it if you're 50 yards closer to the green 95% of the time, because that 50 yards closer is worth maybe 0.25 strokes per time. Then there is the slightly higher likelihood of being in the rough the further you hit it and everything and 65 yards is the point where it makes sense to go long. Scott's theory basically breaks down to:



Is 65 yards/95% of the time something like an average across all players?  My home course is very narrow, and my sense is that there are several holes where treeline-to-treeline is less than 65 yards.  I'll have to measure next time I'm out there.


65 yards at 300 is roughly where he pegs elite players. It’s not treeline to treeline though. It’s penalty area to penalty area. Treeline might effectively be OB but a lot of the time it’s still playable. In that instance it’s 40 yards that’s the measure. I’m guessing that’s about 3/4 of shots wind up inside 40 yards. If it’s over 65 yards between penalty areas but less than 40 between bunkers/trees, then it’s three wood if that comes up short of the bunkers. If it doesn’t then it’s still driver.


Incidentally this is an example of somewhere I don’t necessarily agree with Scott. Not all bunkers are the same and if hitting three wood means you can’t get there in two then I think it makes more sense to take it on unless it’s really narrow.

Rob Marshall

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Re: When is taking a risk vs playing safe really worth it?
« Reply #72 on: September 29, 2021, 06:37:33 PM »

In essence, the theory goes that you should hit driver into a 65 yard wide window about 95% of the time. 5% of the time you'll be outside that and it'll cost you a penalty of some description (maybe). A 1 or 2 stroke penalty 5% of the time is worth it if you're 50 yards closer to the green 95% of the time, because that 50 yards closer is worth maybe 0.25 strokes per time. Then there is the slightly higher likelihood of being in the rough the further you hit it and everything and 65 yards is the point where it makes sense to go long. Scott's theory basically breaks down to:



Is 65 yards/95% of the time something like an average across all players?  My home course is very narrow, and my sense is that there are several holes where treeline-to-treeline is less than 65 yards.  I'll have to measure next time I'm out there.


65 yards at 300 is roughly where he pegs elite players. It’s not treeline to treeline though. It’s penalty area to penalty area. Treeline might effectively be OB but a lot of the time it’s still playable. In that instance it’s 40 yards that’s the measure. I’m guessing that’s about 3/4 of shots wind up inside 40 yards. If it’s over 65 yards between penalty areas but less than 40 between bunkers/trees, then it’s three wood if that comes up short of the bunkers. If it doesn’t then it’s still driver.


Incidentally this is an example of somewhere I don’t necessarily agree with Scott. Not all bunkers are the same and if hitting three wood means you can’t get there in two then I think it makes more sense to take it on unless it’s really narrow.


Mike if three wood still gets you in the bunker why wouldn’t you hit hybrid if that keeps you short of the bunker?
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: When is taking a risk vs playing safe really worth it?
« Reply #73 on: September 29, 2021, 06:46:01 PM »
Thank for posting that graphic, its interesting stuff.  But as is discussed here almost daily, the pro game may as well be on the moon for as much as it applies to the every day joe, where angles still very much matter.
Is everyone just ignoring that in almost every post I've said that angles matter when the ball is rolling?  :D Is this the Twilight Zone? That's under firm conditions like at the Presidents Cup, or with mid- or higher-handicappers. Or some combination thereof. I even said that for my daughter, a +1, they can matter.

You previously mentioned that high handicap players can't generate enough spin

Maybe I did, but… I don't recall ever really talking about "spin" in regards to "angles" in this conversation. Bad golfers often need to play angles a bit because the ball rolls. Why the ball rolls more often for them is a combination of lack of speed, lack of height, and other things. Spin may be in there, too, but lower spin is often a result of lower speed and lower loft, so…?

and angles matter more to them, but at what point do the trends suggested in the PGA Tour graphic diminish?

Good luck with that. There's no point, it's a sliding scale, and I don't know how you define "diminish." As I've said, my daughter is a +1 and angles matter to her, but to most male +1s, they often do not. Unless they're playing somewhere firm, or somewhere where the ball will roll. Otherwise golf is often an aerial endeavor.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Rob Marshall

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Re: When is taking a risk vs playing safe really worth it?
« Reply #74 on: September 29, 2021, 07:13:47 PM »
Here is a pretty good article on DECADE from golf digest. Pretty good read if you are interested.


https://www.golfdigest.com/story/scott-fawcett-golf-cheat-code
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett