Golf in America

[Kalen Braley]

Billy H. has been in the news a bit lately with not being picked for the Ryder Cup and all, so this has flown under the radar.

He recently said:

"Too many times in America, we just get up on tees, hit drivers. You don’t have to really think about where to hit it. You know, same things into greens — where you miss it on a green is really not that important a lot of weeks"

https://golf.com/news/theres-not-sometimes-thinking-billy-horschel-courses-america/

Certainly there are many courses here in the states that are both wide-open and those that requires one to think, and I suspect same is true overseas.  So while there seems to be some truth to the statement, I'm curious what the treehouse thinks?  Or relative to the other thread on Strokes Gained is this just simply a function of pros bombing away because the math seems to indicate they should?

[Joe Hancock]

I think a factor is in the modern capabilities of conditioning. There is a desire to homogenize, or produce uniformity in the turf. Roughs, for instance, used to be quite, well, rough. Now, roughs are often deep, but not *rough*. The pro’s don’t have to adapt too much if all the *rough* is the same around the course. It’s just a lot more doable now to produce uniformity, and that’s to the benefit of the advanced golfer.

[Thomas Dai]

Ok this is supposed to be a thread about golf in America but I suggest it’s not just an American issue and the quote referenced could be used to describe golf elsewhere too.
As to the issue itself, there’s not just a course, set-up etc issue here for there’s an equipment aspect to this as well. Not just the ball, which irrespective of the distance it now goes, does have different playing characteristics to balls from previous eras, but also graphite shafted metal headed ‘woods’, hybrids and cavity back irons vrs persimmons and blades.
Once upon a time, and it’s not that long ago, a steel shafted, smallish size persimmon headed Driver was probably the hardest club in the bag to hit. Many players didn’t even carry one or if they did only used it sparingly. Now the Driver with its jumbo 460cc head and lightweight shaft may well be the easiest club in the bag to hit, to ‘bomb away’, and everyone seems to have one and use it as often as possible.
Plus largely due to the difficulty in using a smallish size persimmon headed steel shafted Driver with predictability and consistency there was more lay-up and strategic play from the tee rather than the ‘bombs away’ approach we see so much of these days.
Atb

[Tom_Doak]

The title of the thread should be “Tournament Golf in America”.


There are plenty of old courses where it absolutely does matter if you leave yourself above the hole.  The PGA TOUR doesn’t play any of those.  Tour officials hate controversy; they prefer flat greens rolling at 11 1/2 that won’t offend anyone and therefore won’t threaten their generous salaries.

[Kalen Braley]

Good comments all.

For those in the know, would you agree the typical layout here in the states is more about bash away vs overseas? I suspect this is the case for Tournament courses as noted, but is same true on everyday tracks? 

[Jeff Schley]

The title of the thread should be “Tournament Golf in America”.


There are plenty of old courses where it absolutely does matter if you leave yourself above the hole.  The PGA TOUR doesn’t play any of those.  Tour officials hate controversy; they prefer flat greens rolling at 11 1/2 that won’t offend anyone and therefore won’t threaten their generous salaries.

While also using as many TPC courses as they can to save money on paying out to courses for downtime.

[Gib_Papazian]

Even gimping around in what seems to be a perpetual battle to stay off the D.L., I watch less than 1/2 the PGA Tour golf I used to. Actually, it is about 25%, maybe.

The mind-numbing sameness finally bored me to tears - like watching the same marginally entertaining movie over and over and over.

The novelty of professor DeChambeau's experiment in protein shakes has worn thin - and from a personality standpoint, the American players have all had theirs' surgically removed.

Even Feherty could not make Brooks or D.J. an interesting interview.

I'd rather endure a rousing Congressional C-Span debate on tax code granularity than listen to any of those vapid Tour drones be interviewed by another chirpy little tart who doesn't know a sand wedge from a head cover.

And since "chicks dig the long ball," the PGA Tour does not even make a pretense of risk-reward tee shot setups - except the requisite one "drivable par 4" - which provides the only strategic decisions purportedly the "best players in the world" have to face.

Brother Doak is 100% right - the Tour guys would rather eat glass than play a golf course set up as more whimsical adventure than Nicklausian examination. In other words, the PGA Tour - by acquiescing to modern fad and fashion - are killing their own product.

Personally, I find the Senior Tour and LPGA far more interesting and engaging. The Senior Tour has enough wildly entertaining aging Europeans, it is tough to resist The World's Most Interesting Man square off (while having huge fun) with Darren Clarke . . . . maybe because I'm getting older, but watching a collection of cheeky old guys enjoying themselves beats the "weakly" snooze.

That stated, between the varied courses, intelligent commentary and expressive personalities, the European Tour telecasts keep my interest . . . . 

The LPGA may have too many single-file, stone-faced robots marching down the fairway, but at least they are playing a game vaguely recognizable to me.

Watching both men and women's amateur golf invariably brings excellent entertainment value - for the same reason I always choose a good college football game over the NFL.

The genie might be irretrievably out of the bottle, so maybe the path forward is to quit drawing an equivalency between PGA Tour golf - and the game we mortals play.

In reality, they are playing a different sport altogether, so there is no point in pretending anymore. For those of us who actually know what we are looking at, there is exactly zero excitement playing any TPC golf course over a classic gem . . . . let along paying $250 for the privilege.         


   


     

[David Wuthrich]

The title of the thread should be “Tournament Golf in America”.


There are plenty of old courses where it absolutely does matter if you leave yourself above the hole.  The PGA TOUR doesn’t play any of those.  Tour officials hate controversy; they prefer flat greens rolling at 11 1/2 that won’t offend anyone and therefore won’t threaten their generous salaries.

I agree, those courses do exist in the US and those are the ones that I find myself drawn to.  Tom is right, none of the Tours will play those type of courses!

[Kalen Braley]

Not sure if that's entirely true.

Even if its only a few, doesn't being above the hole matter at courses like Pebble, Riv, and ANGC (Not a tour event, but it is sanctioned)

I see this as a distance issue personally.  When they can bomb it 330 even if it goes in the rough, they're still hitting wedge into a 480 yard par 4.  As opposed to hitting it 50 yards shorts and approaching with a mid to long iron which is an entirely different animal

[David Wuthrich]

Distance is the main issues, but there are other factors.
I have been fortunate to play all three courses that you mentioned and only the course in Georgia scared me when I was above the hole.  Oakmont is in that category as well, but, the Tour does not go there often.

[Jeff Schley]

I see this as a distance issue personally.  When they can bomb it 330 even if it goes in the rough, they're still hitting wedge into a 480 yard par 4.  As opposed to hitting it 50 yards shorts and approaching with a mid to long iron which is an entirely different animal

Kalen how often do you see pros hitting long irons into ANY par 4? Probably only behemoths into the wind only. Or a links course in heavy wind.

[Tom_Doak]

Not sure if that's entirely true.

Even if its only a few, doesn't being above the hole matter at courses like Pebble, Riv, and ANGC (Not a tour event, but it is sanctioned)

I’ll give you Pebble Beach (although some have been softened).  Riviera’s greens are cool, but rarely scary.  Augusta, sure, but that’s not the Tour anymore than Winged Foot is.

[Brian Marion]

The title of the thread should be “Tournament Golf in America”.


There are plenty of old courses where it absolutely does matter if you leave yourself above the hole.  The PGA TOUR doesn’t play any of those.  Tour officials hate controversy; they prefer flat greens rolling at 11 1/2 that won’t offend anyone and therefore won’t threaten their generous salaries.

Correct..... in fact, I'll go one further, the title could be


"Golf Entertainment Product in America" - because that is what the PGA TOUR is/or is becoming.


It's "The Voice" to actually playing in a band and sweating it out in bars and lounges.


It's "Name Food Network Show Here" where the masses buy into what looks good on TV and had drama surrounding it's creation(fake drama of course), not a real meal that tastes amazing.


It's not day in day out golf as millions play on courses that matter, are good, and have interest.


What this drives is unrealistic expectations of conditions, design, amenities, etc. I just had a two members complain to me about how our fairways look "scalped and mowed too low" when in fact, it's dry here and we don't water fairways. The place is actually PLAYING beautifully. Not to mention the arguments that happen when trying to explain strategy and angles when renovating a hole.


I laugh because lots of people are fighting bifurcation with the golf ball. It's already happened with THE GAME. Has there ever been a time when what's seen on TV and what's played daily has seen such a divide? This goes for courses, players, equipment, etc.


Maybe this explains why women's golf has seen recent interest? A game played on tv that looks more similar to mine on classic courses that look different than the week in week out drivel seen on the TOUR.

[MCirba]

Couldn't agree more with Gib and Brian.

[Jeff Schley]

Maybe this explains why women's golf has seen recent interest? A game played on tv that looks more similar to mine on classic courses that look different than the week in week out drivel seen on the TOUR.

If I was commissioner of LPGA I would try and book as many classic courses as I could. This is ignoring finances, but the women would be able ot really appreciate the classics.
Also the Champions Tour IMO play on uninteresting courses as well. You would think these old guys know members at all the clubs and presidents/chairs etc. They should be playing on the classic layouts as well for they are 20 - 30 yards less than the big boys.
It would be great to see professionals play the classic courses when their distance doesn't make them irrelevant like the PGA tour. Whether or not the classic courses would allow them, is another story.

LPGA has some good ones coming up for a change:
2022Congressional & Muifield - two good ones
2023Pebble Beach, Baltursol, Walton Heath


Senior TourUS Open - pretty weak ... maybe Newport CC is notable.Sr. PGA -  Congressional
If they want to get interest go to courses not normally in the rotation and noteworthy. Cypress Point, Bandon Dunes, Crystal Downs, Bel Air, Sand Hills, Ohopee, Honors Course, Chicago Golf, Shoreacres, NGLA, Royal Dornoch, Fishers Island (logistics), SFGC, Prairie Dunes, Maidstone, North Berwick (the fun on TV), Peachtree, Seminole, Wade Hampton (beautiful).

I have bolded those I wished would come first. Limited capacity for some sure.

[Brad Steven]

Wow ... I think we've had a run of some of the best PGA tour golf in recent memory this year ... why so cynical?  To the OPs original question, yes it absolutely matters where pros hit the ball on the green.  It matters less to them than to us because they putt so well. It matters even more where they miss the green I'd say because the tour tucks pins and green side rough is generally brutal.  The idea that the tour sets up courses to avoid upsetting the players with tough two putts is not my experience at all.  Playing regularly at one tour stop myself and having played in pro-ams and day-after events, I can tell you that the tour sets up golf courses as hard as you can imagine.  The horses have long since left the barn on the distance issue and that's not really the issue anyway.  The issue is that tour players are unimaginably good.  They're long, straight, hit irons exactly how far they want to (PW or 4i), and hit the ball out of heavy rough with little difficulty - whether green side or from a missed fairway.   Have a look at tournament scores at SS Black since it's opened.  Wild greens won't slow these guys down.  Just like every other sport, the skill level of golf professionals has gone up dramatically but unlike other sports, there are not other increasingly skillful athletes to oppose the progress.  So what.  Cantlay vs. DeChambeau?  English vs. Hickock?  What more can we want?