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Jay Mickle

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Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #50 on: February 09, 2022, 09:47:08 PM »
$145 is still a steal.
I know I am getting old, but, really?  A steal?
What should we charge in Ireland for the #55 golf course in the world that could still be considered a good deal?


I suppose it is all relative but the 2 other courses under the same ownership will be in excess of $200 this spring with accompanied guest rates of $130. I recall other resorts charging the same for all venues, in that regard $145 is a "steal".

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Edward Glidewell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #51 on: February 09, 2022, 10:01:59 PM »
$145 is still a steal.


I know I am getting old, but, really?  A steal?


What should we charge in Ireland for the #55 golf course in the world that could still be considered a good deal?


In a vacuum, $145 seems pretty crazy for a round of golf almost anywhere.

When looking at what other courses charge, though, Southern Pines for $145 is a steal. There are public courses here in Atlanta that charge $90+ for a round, and there are a lot of Myrtle Beach courses charging $150+. Considering how good Southern Pines is, it's understandable what they're charging.

$195 is the highest price point for Southern Pines -- Streamsong is $379 for non-resort guests. While I'm sure the Streamsong courses are better, it's very unlikely that they're nearly $200 a round better.


EDIT: I only went with Streamsong because Pinehurst CC doesn't post their rates (at least as far as I know), but I believe #4 is over $300 at peak. I like #4, but Southern Pines is better.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2022, 10:29:33 PM by Edward Glidewell »

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #52 on: February 09, 2022, 10:10:47 PM »
The fact is that the Pinehurst resort is driving up the price of the other courses in the area.  I haven't checked lately but #2 is probably over $400 and #4 is probably close behind.  Pine Needles is hosting a championship this year and the word has gotten out that SP could be in the best in the area second only to #2.


So far as Ireland is concerned what are Ballybunion and Lahinch charging - I would think that Rosapenna should be just shy of them until it becomes part of the US money rotation.

Andrew Harvie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #53 on: February 10, 2022, 08:41:38 AM »
$145 is still a steal.


I know I am getting old, but, really?  A steal?


What should we charge in Ireland for the #55 golf course in the world that could still be considered a good deal?


My point is simply that this is the United States with 7.5% inflation in one of the most golf-heavy neighbourhoods in the US. The new Southern Pines is at worst a Doak 7. I'd pay $145 for SP over $250 for No. 4. Ireland is irrelevant as they're not a competing golf course. My take anyway.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2022, 08:43:30 AM by Drew Harvie »

Amol Yajnik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #54 on: February 10, 2022, 10:03:04 AM »
The fact is that the Pinehurst resort is driving up the price of the other courses in the area.  I haven't checked lately but #2 is probably over $400 and #4 is probably close behind.  Pine Needles is hosting a championship this year and the word has gotten out that SP could be in the best in the area second only to #2.


So far as Ireland is concerned what are Ballybunion and Lahinch charging - I would think that Rosapenna should be just shy of them until it becomes part of the US money rotation.


The other part of this is that Pinehurst Resort is limiting outside play.  Recently the change was made that you had to stay at the Resort to play #2 or #4 (if you didn't know a member) and I've heard that #6-#9 are going to fall under that rule pretty soon.  So then you have a trickle-down effect to Mid Pines and Pine Needles with more demand from people that don't want to stay at the Resort, and now Southern Pines since they are all owned by the same group.  You might be shocked to see the peak rates at Tobacco Road too. 

Stewart Abramson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #55 on: February 10, 2022, 10:53:37 AM »
The inflation of green fees in North America and GBI has been going on well before the current inflation. I'm no longer surprised by the high fees.


I've been playing  a lot more no name Doak 3's the last few years and like to look for courses that I think might be considered for a ""Yank award"

Daryl David

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #56 on: February 10, 2022, 11:03:12 AM »
$145 is still a steal.


For us old guys, does anyone remember what they payed to play a very good course in 1980?  If it was around $28 would you consider it a steal?  Well that’s the same as $145 today. I think $145 is going to look pretty good 12 months from now if we keep averaging 7% monthly inflation.

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #57 on: February 10, 2022, 07:44:32 PM »
I played the golf course in early December and I saw a course that was going through the normal issues post renovation such as grown in, tweaking the drainage, figuring out where carts should go on sand cart paths, and bunker facing. In December it wasn't anything close to a Doak seven and I have my doubts that it will some day be a seven but I'll hold judgement on that number or any number for another year.


The inflation points justifying the green fees as reasonable are bogus. The biggest drivers of long term inflation (until very recently) have been healthcare and higher education. Over the long term inflation has been kept in check and in some limited short term cases there has been price stagnation or even deflation due to advances in technology leading to productivity gains.


The market value of the green fees are determined by the local market conditions. I personally think $145 is high but if they can get it then good for them.

Edward Glidewell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #58 on: February 10, 2022, 09:03:06 PM »
The market value of the green fees are determined by the local market conditions. I personally think $145 is high but if they can get it then good for them.


I think that's the point people are making. When you look at the price of public golf in large markets (I'd consider Pinehurst a large market specifically for golf due to the number of travelers) around the country, $145 for a course of Southern Pines' quality is a pretty good deal. Most places in the US don't have any public courses that are remotely as good.

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #59 on: February 15, 2022, 05:39:33 PM »
My family did not subside golf.


Now, if I was a youngster, and living in the Pinehurst area, I never would have never had the means to take up the game.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #60 on: February 15, 2022, 05:57:53 PM »
I can’t imagine a better deal than the Winter rate at MP, PN and SP. I recently got back from a trip that also included Tobacco Road on the last day and will stick with the Ross courses next time around. After a couple of plays the last few years at TR I much prefer the other three.

Edward Glidewell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #61 on: February 15, 2022, 09:26:55 PM »
My family did not subside golf.


Now, if I was a youngster, and living in the Pinehurst area, I never would have never had the means to take up the game.


You definitely could -- there are still $30-40 golf courses in Pinehurst (at least during the winter... maybe not during the high season, although I don't know).


You just wouldn't be able to play at some of the better public courses in the country, which is a problem, but that's not unique to Pinehurst. It's a problem just about everywhere.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2022, 09:38:03 PM by Edward Glidewell »

Bernie Bell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #62 on: February 16, 2022, 03:36:56 PM »
You could walk either course at Whispering Pines tomorrow for $32 or walk 18 (twice around) at Midland for $20

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #63 on: February 16, 2022, 04:06:13 PM »
You could walk either course at Whispering Pines tomorrow for $32 or walk 18 (twice around) at Midland for $20


I was going to play Midland mid afternoon after Pine Needles and the tee was stacked up. Between the resort and Midland there is something that should suit everybody’s taste and wallet in the area.

Peter Sayegh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #64 on: March 06, 2022, 07:33:33 AM »
Saddened to see the "new" SPCC  apparently opens next week. Highest green fee I've ever seen for one of my favorite courses. I chose to deny the inevitable rate hike but still surprised by the percentage of the increase.
I wonder if they wanted to stay on Golf.com's best under $150 for another year.
Just bummed about it. Rant over.
P.S. Yes, I will still p(l)ay it when in Pinehurst
I guess I have to amend this. Golf.com's best under $150 will no longer include SPCC.
I will still play it but probably only December through February (it has become my pre-Super Bowl round the last four years). This is a gut punch for me.

I've never blinked at paying and playing at MP or PN but Southern Pines was always "that place" that combined value, history, challenge, and enjoyment. I doubt I will ever think the "renovation" of SPCC worthy of its current green fees.

P.S. I hope SPCC thrives. If/when the Little 9 is realized, I'll be in the initial line to play.

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #65 on: March 07, 2022, 10:18:11 PM »
I am really looking forward to seeing Southern Pines this summer - hopefully most of the work will be done and the conditions are firm and fast. I think the great debate will be which of the three is the best - I really believe SP has a chance to overtake the others.

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #66 on: March 07, 2022, 11:16:41 PM »
I am really looking forward to seeing Southern Pines this summer - hopefully most of the work will be done and the conditions are firm and fast. I think the great debate will be which of the three is the best - I really believe SP has a chance to overtake the others.
I think the work is done. It was basically done around Thanksgiving time.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Brett Meyer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #67 on: March 08, 2022, 07:47:08 AM »
I am really looking forward to seeing Southern Pines this summer - hopefully most of the work will be done and the conditions are firm and fast. I think the great debate will be which of the three is the best - I really believe SP has a chance to overtake the others.
I think the work is done. It was basically done around Thanksgiving time.

I was just there last week and not only is the work done, it's hard to tell from how well everything is grown in that it had just recently been redone. The greens are a bit firmer than they might be in a year or two, but no extreme firmness like I've experienced on other new courses. Some of the waste areas need a bit of roughing up so that they look more natural and I'm sure that they'll be planting more wire grass in a lot of these areas. But the course seemed to be an almost complete version of what it will be.

I had never played Southern Pines before the restoration but I was surprised by how different it was from its sister courses Mid Pines and Pine Needles. It's quite difficult--a lot of severity on and around the greens. The thing that really sticks out, which someone mentioned either earlier in this thread or another, is how many false fronts there are. There must be a dozen greens with false fronts, several quite severe. It makes some sense that you'd have this because the property is quite hilly and many of the greens are perched into hillsides. You really have to hit your irons well here--you'll be hitting a lot of (semi-)blind pitch shots if you're not.

The greens also have a lot of contour--more than any I've played in the area except Tobacco Road.

They've restored a lost, short par 3 between the 4th and 5th holes. It was in play at the expense of the short par 4 11th, where they were doing maintenance. Too bad--11 looked to me like the best hole on the course. Here are some pictures:

The restored 'lost' hole:



The approach into the par 4 8th. Apparently the pond was obscured by trees:



The short par 4 11th. Looks like a great hole; unfortunately it was closed that day for maintenance:



I really liked the 17th green. It had simpler surroundings (like what you'd find around most of the greens at no. 2 or Mid Pines) and was a nice change of pace from the severe edges:


Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #68 on: March 08, 2022, 08:33:19 AM »
The 11th is so different. So good too. Even 10 is different with the trees removed down the left side (and thinned on the right, I think).
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

John Blain

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #69 on: March 08, 2022, 09:54:09 AM »
I am really looking forward to seeing Southern Pines this summer - hopefully most of the work will be done and the conditions are firm and fast. I think the great debate will be which of the three is the best - I really believe SP has a chance to overtake the others.
I think the work is done. It was basically done around Thanksgiving time.

I was just there last week and not only is the work done, it's hard to tell from how well everything is grown in that it had just recently been redone. The greens are a bit firmer than they might be in a year or two, but no extreme firmness like I've experienced on other new courses. Some of the waste areas need a bit of roughing up so that they look more natural and I'm sure that they'll be planting more wire grass in a lot of these areas. But the course seemed to be an almost complete version of what it will be.

I had never played Southern Pines before the restoration but I was surprised by how different it was from its sister courses Mid Pines and Pine Needles. It's quite difficult--a lot of severity on and around the greens. The thing that really sticks out, which someone mentioned either earlier in this thread or another, is how many false fronts there are. There must be a dozen greens with false fronts, several quite severe. It makes some sense that you'd have this because the property is quite hilly and many of the greens are perched into hillsides. You really have to hit your irons well here--you'll be hitting a lot of (semi-)blind pitch shots if you're not.

The greens also have a lot of contour--more than any I've played in the area except Tobacco Road.

They've restored a lost, short par 3 between the 4th and 5th holes. It was in play at the expense of the short par 4 11th, where they were doing maintenance. Too bad--11 looked to me like the best hole on the course. Here are some pictures:

The restored 'lost' hole:



The approach into the par 4 8th. Apparently the pond was obscured by trees:



The short par 4 11th. Looks like a great hole; unfortunately it was closed that day for maintenance:



I really liked the 17th green. It had simpler surroundings (like what you'd find around most of the greens at no. 2 or Mid Pines) and was a nice change of pace from the severe edges:


Brett-
I played SPGC in January and I think your assessment is spot-on. I didn't expect so many false fronts and like you said many of them are quite severe, too severe in my opinion. I also thought there were a few greens where the contouring was over the top. If you get those particular greens running any more than 10-10.5 it could get ugly. Overall I liked the course but also found it pretty difficult, certainly more difficult than it was pre-restoration.
Great pics by the way!

Peter Sayegh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #70 on: March 08, 2022, 10:31:25 AM »
"Overall I liked the course but also found it pretty difficult, certainly more difficult than it was pre-restoration." JPBlain.

I certainly think this is true. That and the (anticipated) increased green fees have been in my head the last five times I've played SPCC-twice just before renovation, one during, and two post-reno. The tree removal is spectacular but the new "native" areas and greenside bunkers seem too penal to me for most players. Is it sacrilege to now say Mid Pines is the easiest of the triumvirate?

Last month I brought my latest newbie (@ just $55) to SPCC and he was talking about how cool the greens were by the time we hit the fifth tee. In the parking lot, he thanked me for showing him the place. I honestly don't know if he'd say the same after a $180 bill.

P.S. my photos post-reno are (hopefully) in post #31.

Jay Mickle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #71 on: March 08, 2022, 06:40:53 PM »
A couple of clarifications. The connector hole between the fourth green and the 15th tee is not a recovered lost hole but rather an entirely new hole. There was previously a hole in the general area but laid out in a different direction to provide for a 9 hole loop (1-4, connector, 15-18).
As for Mid Pines being the easiest, it has always played harder than Pine Needles. Mini tour scores at MP were 3 shots higher than PN despite being 400 yards shorter. The explanation would be that MidPines was designed as a tournament course and Pine Needles was designed as a resort course. Of course your results may differ.
@MickleStix on Instagram
MickleStix.com

Bill Shamleffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #72 on: March 09, 2022, 07:00:09 AM »
$145 is still a steal.


For us old guys, does anyone remember what they payed to play a very good course in 1980?  If it was around $28 would you consider it a steal?  Well that’s the same as $145 today. I think $145 is going to look pretty good 12 months from now if we keep averaging 7% monthly inflation.


$28.00 1980 dollars is about $88.00 2022 dollars.  The average annual US inflation rate for 1980-2020 was 2.9%.  I would be surprised if the average annual US inflation rate exceeds 3% over the next 10 years.
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

Brett Meyer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #73 on: March 09, 2022, 07:12:02 AM »
A couple of clarifications. The connector hole between the fourth green and the 15th tee is not a recovered lost hole but rather an entirely new hole. There was previously a hole in the general area but laid out in a different direction to provide for a 9 hole loop (1-4, connector, 15-18).

Jay,

Thanks for the clarification. To me, it felt more like one of the holes that you'd see on these new par 3 courses rather than Ross, so I'm glad that my intuition is tracking something.


As to the price, an important thing to note about the Pine Needles family of courses is that they have good replay rates. I paid $150 to play Mid Pines and $125 for Southern Pines at the beginning of March, but the replay rate at each was only $60. I always try to play 36 holes when I'm playing a new course and I get very happy when the replay rate is below 50% of the original.

One issue: they don't give you the replay rate if you're mixing courses on one day. I would have had to have paid $195 to play Pine Needles after I played Mid Pines in the morning. I told the guys behind the counter at both Mid Pines and Southern Pines that they should extend the replay rates to the other courses.


On comparing PN, MP, and SP, my preference comes out pretty clearly in that order. On my visit in 2019, I preferred PN to MP, but it was close and I only played the former once. Now I've seen each of them two more times and I'm completely convinced about PN>MP. The variety of the terrain at PN is just so good and really plays an important role in the driving. Take the 6th hole, which doesn't seem to be one of anyones' favorites. This is an outstanding driving hole. It's semi-blind over the bunker on the left but if you hedge right, your ball will take the slope to the right and leave a blind second. But if you stay left and either pull it or go to far, you have tree trouble. The aesthetically pleasing drive on 12 seems easy up and over the hill but if you hit even a slight pull, the ground takes your ball toward the waste area on the left.

To be fair, the terrain at MP plays an important role in the driving game. Shaping your drives correctly on 12, 14, and 15 will really help you. But it's a bit less interesting and I felt that there was less variety in the holes at MP than PN. I also like the greens at PN a bit more than MP. They're larger and the middles tend not to be heavily contoured. But the edges are. And this introduces a lot of flexibility in to how difficult the course can play. It's not too hard if you put the pins in the middle but it becomes quite difficult if you put them at the edges. The edges of the greens at PN are clearly second to no. 2 for me (although not nearly that good).

As I mentioned in my earlier post, I was surprised by the difficulty of SP and how different it was from PN and MP. To me, the false fronts are overdone. There are far too many of them and several are severe (2, 4, 9, 15, 18). I felt like I was hitting the same shot into most of the greens so it really lost variety points with me. The greens are more heavily contoured and on their own, I like them. But the combination of the severe edges and the heavily contoured greens was a bit much. I wish that a few more of the greens had been toned down, like that on 17 in my above picture.

Peter Sayegh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #74 on: March 09, 2022, 07:34:53 AM »
A couple of clarifications. The connector hole between the fourth green and the 15th tee is not a recovered lost hole but rather an entirely new hole. There was previously a hole in the general area but laid out in a different direction to provide for a 9 hole loop (1-4, connector, 15-18).
As for Mid Pines being the easiest, it has always played harder than Pine Needles. Mini tour scores at MP were 3 shots higher than PN despite being 400 yards shorter. The explanation would be that MidPines was designed as a tournament course and Pine Needles was designed as a resort course. Of course your results may differ.

Thanks for the info Jay. The MP/PN score data is surprising to me.

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