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John Blain

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Southern Pines GC
« on: September 10, 2021, 10:39:00 AM »
The Kyle Franz restoration is complete and the course officially re-opened yesterday.


Southern Pines, a Donald Ross design, fully reopens today (usatoday.com)


-John

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2021, 11:00:13 AM »
Perfect timing as I will be in Pinehurst over Thanksgiving for a whole week. I had planned on only playing Mid Pines and Pine Needles but now I will add Southern Pines in the mix.


In the photos of the renovation at the end of the article, it is interesting to see the frilly edged bunkers that I associate with Coore/Crenshaw and Doak juxtaposed to what we saw last week at Inverness (and other northern Ross restorations) of more geometrically shaped bunkers.

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2021, 07:36:46 PM »
I have not played Pine Needles, but that is a great trio in Southern Pines, PN, and Mid-Pines.


I have limited exposure to Pinehurst, and I have not played #2. Are there three courses better at Pinehurst over Mid-SPGC-Pine Needles?


Thanks
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

JStewart

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Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2021, 08:27:51 PM »
Are there three courses better at Pinehurst over Mid-SPGC-Pine Needles?


Thanks


Probably not three. No. 2 and No. 4 are pretty awesome. No. 8 is nice as well, but probably not quite at the level of the trio you mentioned.

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2021, 08:31:09 PM »
Are there three courses better at Pinehurst over Mid-SPGC-Pine Needles?


Thanks


Probably not three. No. 2 and No. 4 are pretty awesome. No. 8 is nice as well, but probably not quite at the level of the trio you mentioned.


I had similar thoughts. My choice for a trio would be SP, Mid Pines, and Pine Needles. At the resort it would probably be 2, 4, 8, and throw in the Cradle. On the private side maybe a trio of Dormie, CCNC, and Forest Creek.

Joe_Tucholski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2021, 09:56:45 PM »
I have not played Pine Needles, but that is a great trio in Southern Pines, PN, and Mid-Pines.


I have limited exposure to Pinehurst, and I have not played #2. Are there three courses better at Pinehurst over Mid-SPGC-Pine Needles?


Thanks


If the questions is would I rather play Mid Pines/SPGC/Pine Needles or #2/#4/any other course at the resort.  My answer depends.  If I'm not paying my choice is #2/#4/any other.  If I'm paying I'm going Mid Pines/SPGC/Pine Needles.

Charles Lund

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2021, 10:49:35 PM »
Good to see the link to the article. 


I played Southern Pines in April while under construction.  On that trip, I also played Mid Pines, Pine Needles, Dormie Club, and Tobacco Road.  I was going to try to get a walk on single time for Pinehurst #2, but they changed the policy to make times available to resort guests.  My experience at Southern Pines led to making a mental note to come back and play it when it reopened.


I visited Pinehurst on two other occasions and played Mid Pines, Pine Needles, Tobacco Road, and Mid South.  I think #2 was undergoing maintenance one time and under construction another.


I found a decent fare to RDU in early November, so I decided to fly out from the Pacific Northwest for a week.  I have been happy in the past playing the courses I mentioned, but this time added #2 and #8, with a night of lodging at the resort.  I plan to play Southern Pines and will fill in other dates with what makes sense, based on options from communication with an acquaintance in the area.


Tee times for #2, #4, and #8 seemed limited when I did the booking, along with rooms at the resort.  Dormie Club is private now.  I probably would have been fine playing Mid Pines and Pine Needles.  The green surrounds are interesting and fun and the courses are challenging and walkable. Southern Pines after the renovation has similar features, but the scope of tree removal opens up views of more holes, so each hole probably won't seem as self contained as Mid Pines and Pine Needles. 


The area makes for a nice golf break from West Coast courses I play and the Pinehurst area showcases the work of Donald Ross, who didn't do work on the West Coast.


Charles Lund

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2021, 05:08:52 AM »
I have not played Pine Needles, but that is a great trio in Southern Pines, PN, and Mid-Pines.


I have limited exposure to Pinehurst, and I have not played #2. Are there three courses better at Pinehurst over Mid-SPGC-Pine Needles?


Thanks


If the questions is would I rather play Mid Pines/SPGC/Pine Needles or #2/#4/any other course at the resort.  My answer depends.  If I'm not paying my choice is #2/#4/any other.  If I'm paying I'm going Mid Pines/SPGC/Pine Needles.


Basically, I agree with this. And, it highlights the problem with the resort...two really good courses and the rest eh.


Another factor for me in the decision of which three to play would be am I allowed to walk and carry. I know I can at PN/MP/SP. I'm not sure what the rules are at the resort right now.

Peter Sayegh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2021, 07:15:37 AM »
Is the first picture from the link in the OP Southern Pines? Think they got that wrong.
Played Southern Pines yesterday, my fourth visit in the past year. I was there in March at the beginning of the work while the regular greens (save #15) were still in play.
Two most prominent impressions were: (a) the greens have been generously expanded without losing their interest, and (b) a few added bunkers/waste areas seem unnecessary.
Hole #1-bunkers added on both sides of the fairway, particularly the right side, provide a nice frame for the opening shot with plenty of room still afforded. To me, the most interesting element to the hole is the brow above the left greenside bunker. It actually obscured the bottom of the flag stick from the left side of the fairway and as I walked up, I was surprised how prominent it is.
Hole #2-I don't know how much the new crossing hazard will come into play. From the white tees, it seemed a little out of reach. I remember reading that Franz was going to change the 2nd green. I always liked that green. The size doesn't appear to have changed significantly; the new contours and pin possibilities greatly enhance the old version.
Hole #3-Green looks as though it was enlarged on the left/front left. The new offset tees did not feel that different. There is a diagonal "scrub" area (seemingly connected to the one on the 2nd fairway) between the tees and green. If it's supposed to be some top shot hazard, ok I guess, but I think it distracts from the view of the hole.
Hole #4-In March, I was too distracted by the extensive greenside work being done to appreciate what was to come. Trees behind the green had already been felled at that time but the view yesterday was stunning. The left side bunkers on the approach are beautiful and strategic. A "secondary" bunker long right seems superfluous. The green doesn't appear to have the hard tilt to the front any longer. New bunkers added along right side of fairway. A great improvement.
Hole #5-The left greenside bunker is gone. Right greenside bunkers have been consolidated and reach further down the fairway. A native/scrub area is present 100(?) yards out to add interest to layup options. I wish they figure out the ground outside of the fairway here. On either side, it's a jarring mashup of rough, pine straw, scrub area, etc. The speed slot off the tee is still there.
(With apologies to Sean Arble)...More to follow.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2021, 09:52:49 AM by Peter Sayegh »

Peter Sayegh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2021, 09:51:09 AM »
Southern Pines continued:
Hole #6-I cannot be objective regarding the sixth. When I first played it years ago, I fell in love with it. The green seemed to just rise out of the fairway. It was uncluttered and allowed for a myriad of approach and recovery options. Bunkers behind now cover nearly the length of the green while two protect the extreme right hand side short. I will never be swayed that it is now a better or more attractive hole.
Hole #7-I don't know if the tees were elevated or the green was lowered but there is now a better view of the putting surface. The right side has been improved by a bunker near the green. Another, above it, seems like overkill.
Hole #8-Despite the radically different views from the tee, I don't think the strategy off the tee has changed. However, the approach now is much harder, more interesting. I cannot discern if it is the extensive tree clearing...or if right of the green is now more open and closely mown...or if the green is angled more to the right slightly, but I sweated my 9 iron from an ideal spot. Whatever the change, I applaud its execution. (N.B. Ran likes to mention vistas of upcoming holes. The now unobstructed view from the 8th green offers a great look at the layout of #11).
Hole #9-Another hole in which objectivity escapes me. The substitution of the grand left side bunker seems to serve more as filler for the "dead space" in that area than anything else. I'll be interested to hear how much the increased runup shot option is used.
More to follow.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2021, 09:53:39 AM by Peter Sayegh »

Jay Mickle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2021, 04:25:17 PM »
I played SP twice this week and Kyle Franz has transformed this course. Having the best grounds for golf in the Sandhills and with the help of old aerials he took advantage of Ross’s original routing expanding and reorienting greens and adding a bit of Kyle quirk. If you weren’t sure whether you like Pine Needles or MidPines better Southern Pines will surely confound you. This trio surely takes it place among the elite golf destinations in the country and surely the best deal as you don’t have to stay on site to play.
@MickleStix on Instagram
MickleStix.com

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2021, 06:35:17 PM »
I played SP twice this week and Kyle Franz has transformed this course. Having the best grounds for golf in the Sandhills and with the help of old aerials he took advantage of Ross’s original routing expanding and reorienting greens and adding a bit of Kyle quirk. If you weren’t sure whether you like Pine Needles or MidPines better Southern Pines will surely confound you. This trio surely takes it place among the elite golf destinations in the country and surely the best deal as you don’t have to stay on site to play.


Jay,


I did an unexpected trip through the area over Thanksgiving '20. I stayed in Durham, but after playing Mid Pines, I wish I had stayed there. It felt "Old School" in a great way. I absolutely loved "The Cradle", but the Pinehurst Resort feels corporate, to me.


And then there is Pinecrest Inn. Perhaps, I should leave "the image" of Pinecrest in the words of a good friend, but I would like to stay there too...


I will be back!!
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2021, 06:51:45 PM »

And then there is Pinecrest Inn. Perhaps, I should leave "the image" of Pinecrest in the words of a good friend, but I would like to stay there too...


I will be back!!


This isn't hyperbole, the best pork chop in America!

Peter Sayegh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2021, 07:07:01 PM »
Jay, I know you've played SPCC often. Any particular changes you like/dislike?
The MP/SPCC/PN trifecta trumps any combo at PCC in my opinion. My partners on Saturday stayed at PN and did the three course package and thought it was an absolute steal.
My comments will continue after I unpack.

Jay Mickle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2021, 11:21:26 PM »
Eleventh hole is now spectacular. Large knob in front of #13 is bold and likely to be controversial but it really make you think and commit. Just an inverted scar bunker. Brilliant. A monumental transformation++++++
@MickleStix on Instagram
MickleStix.com

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2021, 07:02:53 PM »
I had the good fortune to play Southern Pines yesterday with Jay Mickle as well as my son and a friend and we had a great time.  The course is wonderful and the greens are right up there with the best.  The course needs to grow in a bit but by next year I will venture to say that it will rival, if not surpass, both Pine Needles and Mid Pines as well as Pinehurst #4. I should warn those of you who are well along on their Medicare benefits as am I, that it is not an easy walk, especially when it was as hot as it was yesterday but I did survive. Oh, and one other thing, it is currently a real bargain and those of you who can should try to see it before they jack up the price.

Peter Sayegh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2021, 02:06:16 PM »
Does Chris Buie still participate in the DG?
His take on the changes would be interesting. I assume he has played the "new" version.

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2021, 08:16:30 AM »
Playing SP next Monday; can’t wait!
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Edward Glidewell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2021, 08:02:50 PM »
I'm playing Southern Pines Friday, assuming the weather cooperates. Very excited to see it.

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2021, 07:55:23 AM »
Absolutely wonderful.  Brilliant artistry by Franz, far exceeding my expectations, which were high anyway.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Edward Glidewell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2021, 07:57:26 PM »
Absolutely wonderful.  Brilliant artistry by Franz, far exceeding my expectations, which were high anyway.


Completely agree. It was fantastic; the greens were wild and really fun. I wish I could have played it again and definitely going to try to get another round there in December.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2021, 07:59:11 PM by Edward Glidewell »

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2021, 06:44:48 PM »
We just played MP, SP, and PN on three glorious fall days. It was our first time for SP. I am trying to sort it out. The elevation changes and accompanying views are far more dramatic and enchanting than I expected. The greens are even more dramatic in a good way--it would be great fun to pick hole locations. There are a number of wonderful holes--2, 4, 13, and 17 in particular. Yet, I did not find it quite compelling or coherent. The Par 3s other than 7 blended together even though each was quite attractive. 10, 15, and 16 all offered the same approach shot. 8 and 11 are visually stunning, but unless you are a long hitter who wants to take on risk, not that interesting strategically.


I definitely will go back, but the narratives at PN and MP remain more alluring.


Ira

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2021, 07:04:11 PM »
We just played MP, SP, and PN on three glorious fall days. It was our first time for SP. I am trying to sort it out. The elevation changes and accompanying views are far more dramatic and enchanting than I expected. The greens are even more dramatic in a good way--it would be great fun to pick hole locations. There are a number of wonderful holes--2, 4, 13, and 17 in particular. Yet, I did not find it quite compelling or coherent. The Par 3s other than 7 blended together even though each was quite attractive. 10, 15, and 16 all offered the same approach shot. 8 and 11 are visually stunning, but unless you are a long hitter who wants to take on risk, not that interesting strategically.


I definitely will go back, but the narratives at PN and MP remain more alluring.


Ira


This post is what makes this site so terrific. A well reasoned somewhat contrarian perspective.

Brian Finn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2021, 10:21:32 AM »
Southern Pines has been a favorite of mine since I first played it about 10 years ago, especially since moving to Charlotte in 2015.  I try to get over to play it at least 2 to 3 times each year, and it has always been a pleasant and fun round.  The routing is great, hole to hole rhythm has always been a strong suit, and the core design (the "bones") have always been there.   

Yesterday was my first visit since all of the work has been done, and overall I came away very impressed, but also with a few questions. 

First and foremost, I was struck by just how much the course was opened up through the substantial tree removal (it also seemed like many of the pines were limbed up, adding to the effect, but I could be wrong on that).  The transformation, in that regard was stunning.  The old hole corridors were fairly wide, but the added width is great.  Far more striking are the many internal views across the course that you now have throughout the round.  Starting as you crest the second fairway, and really kicking in on the fourth, views to the interior of the course, across 15, 10, 11, to the lake, it's just awesome.  The fact that the turf will likely benefit tremendously from the added sunlight and airflow are probably an even bigger deal.  It could just be that we were there after a good run of weather, but my friend and I both thought the turf seemed firmer throughout, from tee to green, and sometimes soggy conditions used to be one of the main issues we experienced. 

Second, the reimagined bunkering, both fairways and around greens, added both aesthetically and strategically.  There is no denying that the course now looks more dramatic, with added texture of the larger, more jagged bunkers, as well as the several sandy scrub "waste" areas that were added.  Strategically, new or expanded sand/scrub impacted decisions on many holes, most notably 1, 2, 5, 6, 12, and 15.  Another big net positive.

Third, I appreciated that many already strong holes were left "intact enough" to still shine, as they did before.  The aforementioned tree clearing and bunkering added to these holes, allowing them to play as they should, in some cases a bit tougher, but in others offering even more choices than previously.  The 8th hole is a great example of this.  It's always been one of my favorites, and the fundamental strategy of the hole hasn't changed, but the much wider area of play tempts you in ways that previously did not exist.  I used to always just play safely down the left center (to the best of my ability), leaving an approach from a good angle, only 120-140 into the hole.  Yesterday, I took 4 wood over the right side bunker, even executing the shot I intended, but ended up with the lone remaining tree on the right hanging just over where I would have liked to fly my sand wedge.  I tried the shot anyway, and hit it right into the overhanging limb. Frustration with that led me to try an aggressive pitch at a difficult flag, and my ball rolled off the back of the green.  A chip and 2 putts later, I had my double, and realized I should have stuck to the strategy I had always employed previously.  Temptation never fails to get me, though.  I wonder if I will have the discipline to play a bit shorter and to the left next time.  Beyond the 8th, so many holes still have the same fundamental strategy, but are even better now, with more options or more thought required - the 11th and 15th are two other really good examples.

So, having said all of that, I loved the end product.  I did notice a few things that I was curious about, on a few greens and a few fairways.  Simply stated, I thought some of the new (old?) features added to a few greens seemed excessive.  The best example I can provide is the front right of the 2nd green, where there are 2 pretty big "ripples" that were unlike anything I can recall seeing before.  They were sort of abrupt, sharper features that I didn't understand.  I haven't seen anything like that before, on a Ross course, or elsewhere.  Perhaps it was an old Ross design feature restored, or just a creative touch added by Kyle Franz, and like a few other "sharp" features I noticed on other greens, maybe they are intended to soften over time, after a few hundred passes by mowers and rollers.  FWIW, I always love playing greens that have good, even big, internal contours.  I generally like greens that push to the more extreme end of design.  A few of these just seemed a bit out of character with the rest of the greens and most other Ross greens I have seen (admittedly, only 50-60 courses, and who knows exactly which were original Ross, if any).

The second thing I found was that a couple of the expanded or new sand and scrub areas along fairways may have gone a bit overboard.  The most notable example of this was on the 12th.  The expansion of the fairway bunker on the left made perfect sense and looked good too.  The addition of a diagonal sandy scrub area starting outside right and cutting in toward the green, pinching in the landing area for big hitters also seemed a good add.  However, these two areas are now connected in sort of a crescent now, meeting about 50(?) or so yards short of the green.  First, I thought this really only came into play for lesser players, who might end up hitting a 3rd (or 4th) shot in from this approximate area.  For better players, it should not come into play, and for shorter or less skilled players, it just makes a tough hole tougher.  That is fine, but I also thought it looked odd. 

Anyway, I was really happy to get back and see all of the great work already done to make a good course even better.  As much as I love SP, I still don't think it quite beats MP or PN, but not unlike the Bandon courses (and Streamsong too), there's always lots to be discussed in each of our personal rankings.  I can't wait to see the course again when the remaining (finishing, mostly, I think) work is completed.  I love SP now more than ever, even if I have a few questions about the changes.

NB - the new par 3 hole was not open for play, but it looked very good.  Also, the greens rolled really nicely, which was impressive after such recent work.
New for '24: Monifieth x2, Montrose x2, Panmure, Carnoustie x3, Scotscraig, Kingsbarns, Elie, Dumbarnie, Lundin, Belvedere, The Loop x2, Forest Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs x2, Kapalua Plantation, Windsong Farm, Minikahda...

Matt Wharton

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2021, 11:07:43 AM »
I wrote about this renovation last month for Golf Course Industry magazine.


https://www.golfcourseindustry.com/article/southern-pines-golf-renovations-north-carolina/
Matthew Wharton, CGCS, MG
Idle Hour CC
Lexington, KY

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