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jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2021, 03:06:52 PM »
Brian
I was there yesterday as well.
I can echo nearly everything you wrote.
Despite having attended multiple business meetings and seminars in and around Pinehurst, I've not played much golf in the area , other than the obligatory rounds at #2, #4 and The Cradle usually set up by the organzers of such events.
I played Mid Pines and Pine Needles years ago as well.
I did ride over to Southern Pines in late 2019 after just such a non golf conference, but it was extremely cold (33 degrees and windy and I just looked out from the clubhouse over a few holes)
I'm not sure if I regret walking the course or not after reading Matt's review above as at least  don't have the nostalgia of what was there before conflicting me. (I tend to be over nostalgic and not particularly objective about renovations to courses I love with good bones-see my comments on Narin and Portnoo)


Edit:I played 18 Sunday and then came back and played 6 more late Tuesday
The greens and green surrounds were full of variety and interest and the course abounds with long views across the property.
The native sand areas, the formal bunkers  and the mature pines (which evidently have undergone massive reduction and management)provide a very attractive feature of the course, and a great feel to the place,
Easily one of my favorites in the southeast-the terrain and the mature look of the place are remarkable.
Reminds me an enhanced version version  of what Forest Hills in Augusta could've been before their multiple failed renovations/land swaps.

I do question why they would do all that terrific bunker work yet not have any rakes for the playes to clean up.Bunkers looked like a football game was played in each and every one.
There's no additional maintenance cost to this(rakes), and why absolve players of their responsibility and create future bad habits we see at so many munis.
Then the soft ,muddyish rye approaches in front eliminated any run up approaches and were basically unchippable or unpitchable with any lofted club.(note this was early November after a unseasonably cool snap-no doubt they will get better as they dry and the rye matures).
Curious why they would overseed these frontal approach areas(perhaps to hide scars of recent work)-the fairways in general were not overseeded.
The dormant bermuda surfaces elsewhere provided a wonderful crisp surface, though cart traffic made for thinnish and worn areas-great for a better player, perhaps tough for the average player.
Great improving bones-a work in progress, as newish sod which will remain dormant until late spring is abundant, and cart/foot traffic and pinch points won't help.
There is a downside to so much anticipation and great early reviews (in the form of traffic) while growing in and continuing a renovation.
The traffic from the positive reviews creates wear issues on mostly dormant surfaces and the expectations from the reviews may be higher than is fair, with many seeing the work before it has had a growing season to knit n.
But those are mere nit picks on such a wonderful course and project.
Once grown in and settled down, I could potentially see it as rivaling Palmetto for my favorite course in the southeast, and even surpassing it-assuming they don't becomes victimes of their own success and kill the vibe.





« Last Edit: November 10, 2021, 10:37:21 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Peter Flory

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2021, 03:48:42 PM »
Brian
I was there yesterday as well.


I was also there yesterday (with Chris Buie) for a little twilight tour.  We should have grabbed a beer.

Here are a few pics from the golden hour:

This is looking off to the left a bit from #1 fairway.




I think this angle is from an alternate back tee location- it looks like the tees were set up to the right. 




Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #27 on: November 09, 2021, 08:33:02 AM »
Brian

Curiius why they would overseed these.(perhaps to cover scars of recent work)



I asked in the pro shop why they overseeded. They said northerners like the course green.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

John Blain

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #28 on: November 09, 2021, 09:30:38 AM »
I wrote about this renovation last month for Golf Course Industry magazine.


https://www.golfcourseindustry.com/article/southern-pines-golf-renovations-north-carolina/
Good article, Matt. Thanks for posting. I have not yet played the renovated edition of SP when I look at some of pics that have been posted all I see is sand!

Matt Wharton

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2021, 10:12:53 AM »
I wrote about this renovation last month for Golf Course Industry magazine.


https://www.golfcourseindustry.com/article/southern-pines-golf-renovations-north-carolina/
Good article, Matt. Thanks for posting. I have not yet played the renovated edition of SP when I look at some of pics that have been posted all I see is sand!


Thanks JP! Ironically the MP/PN/SP Twitter account @PineNeedlesGolf posted before and after photos of Hole 11 today and I replied with two of my own photos of that hole while stating, "The transformation of the 11th hole at SP is by far and away the best of the entire project!"  In other words, there are great aspects to the project, I'm just not a fan of the whole.
Matthew Wharton, CGCS, MG
Idle Hour CC
Lexington, KY

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #30 on: November 09, 2021, 10:58:47 AM »
Playing Southern Pines next week.  Saw the before so anxious to see the after.  Liked the before a lot.  Hope and expect to be impressed.  Sometimes it is hard to just do touch up and not go too far. 

Peter Sayegh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #31 on: November 09, 2021, 11:07:39 AM »
"The transformation of the 11th hole at SP is by far and away the best of the entire project!"  In other words, there are great aspects to the project, I'm just not a fan of the whole.
+1
Thanks for your candor. I'm of a like mind.

My first attempt at sharing photos so I ask your forgiveness if the below link is useless. Most photos are from Sep 10 of this year. Some are during the reno in March. Others are just "before" pics.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/194357794@N03/albums/72157720134839557

Craig Disher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2021, 02:27:13 PM »

I asked in the pro shop why they overseeded. They said northerners like the course green.
That is such a strange answer. Is there any evidence that a "northerner" would avoid SPCC absent the overseed? Lack of overseed certainly hasn't cut into play on Pinehurst #2.

Edward Glidewell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2021, 02:30:40 PM »

I asked in the pro shop why they overseeded. They said northerners like the course green.
That is such a strange answer. Is there any evidence that a "northerner" would avoid SPCC absent the overseed? Lack of overseed certainly hasn't cut into play on Pinehurst #2.


I actually buy that reasoning.


It's probably less of an issue in Pinehurst, but SPCC is also an under the radar course that wants to attract more play. I know in Myrtle Beach courses that don't overseed lose package play to courses that do because some people coming from the north on golf trips want to play on green grass and complain when it's not there.


It's not the kind of people that post on this website, of course, but we're the minority.

Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2021, 02:33:15 PM »
Brian

Curiius why they would overseed these.(perhaps to cover scars of recent work)



I asked in the pro shop why they overseeded. They said northerners like the course green.


The starter gave exactly the same response.  Cart path only for 5 weeks or so.  Cost 40k.

Craig Disher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2021, 04:17:08 PM »
That is such a strange answer. Is there any evidence that a "northerner" would avoid SPCC absent the overseed? Lack of overseed certainly hasn't cut into play on Pinehurst #2.

I actually buy that reasoning.

It's probably less of an issue in Pinehurst, but SPCC is also an under the radar course that wants to attract more play. I know in Myrtle Beach courses that don't overseed lose package play to courses that do because some people coming from the north on golf trips want to play on green grass and complain when it's not there.

It's not the kind of people that post on this website, of course, but we're the minority.
At this point, and given the level of play at SPCC, I don't think it's under the radar anymore. I've played the MP/PN/SP group a lot, often with visitors. The most frequent complaint is that it's too wet. I've never heard anyone say that it's great to play on something green. I understand the reasoning but it's based on opinions from an earlier era. Anyway, if green is important, there's always paint.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #36 on: November 09, 2021, 04:21:47 PM »
The look completed looks terrific...I can't wait to get down there and play it. Kyle's work at PN and MP was so spectacular and enjoyable for me I'd be shocked if I don't enjoy the "new" SP.

H.P.S.

Cory Lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #37 on: November 09, 2021, 06:53:33 PM »
It's probably less of an issue in Pinehurst, but SPCC is also an under the radar course that wants to attract more play. I know in Myrtle Beach courses that don't overseed lose package play to courses that do because some people coming from the north on golf trips want to play on green grass and complain when it's not there.
Sadly this is very much the reality.  I was the HP at a course in the area for several years and the fact is if you want substantial business in the Spring, you must overseed.


Most of your Spring business comes from the North and after staring at brown all Winter, seeing green golf courses is very important to them.  Painting is an option, but not as easy as it sounds. 


There is lots competition for package business in Pinehurst and overseeding is something that is here to stay because ultimately your average golfer cares more about green grass than wet conditions and CPO for several weeks.
Instagram: @2000golfcourses
http://2000golfcourses.blogspot.com

Jay Mickle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #38 on: November 09, 2021, 08:43:03 PM »

I asked in the pro shop why they overseeded. They said northerners like the course green.
That is such a strange answer. Is there any evidence that a "northerner" would avoid SPCC absent the overseed? Lack of overseed certainly hasn't cut into play on Pinehurst #2.


Seems that the turf grass experts at the USGA had PN stop over seeding last year and this year in order to insure the best possible playing conditions for the Women's Open in June. All of the Bermuda greens get pigments which if wanted to green up the courses have the benefit of being able to include accelerators to green up early Bermuda and pre-emergents to kill off weeds. This with the benefit of being cheaper and not having a transition where the rye overseed has to be killed while the  Bermuda is retarded.  The era of area courses being a 2 season affair are past, courses here are busy 11 months of the year.
In addition to all of the Pinehurst courses that don't over seed you can add Dormie, CCNC, Mid South and most, if not all, of the other top courses in the area. Winter would seem to be a great time to work on maintenance issues around the courses. Watering and mowing instead??? 
« Last Edit: November 10, 2021, 07:11:36 AM by Jay Mickle »
@MickleStix on Instagram
MickleStix.com

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #39 on: November 10, 2021, 02:53:17 AM »

I asked in the pro shop why they overseeded. They said northerners like the course green.
That is such a strange answer. Is there any evidence that a "northerner" would avoid SPCC absent the overseed? Lack of overseed certainly hasn't cut into play on Pinehurst #2.

I agree Craig! Seems like a patented answer to blame snow birds. I would be interesting to see data on the subject.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #40 on: November 10, 2021, 08:50:00 AM »

I asked in the pro shop why they overseeded. They said northerners like the course green.
That is such a strange answer. Is there any evidence that a "northerner" would avoid SPCC absent the overseed? Lack of overseed certainly hasn't cut into play on Pinehurst #2.

I agree Craig! Seems like a patented answer to blame snow birds. I would be interesting to see data on the subject.

Ciao


I like the way the dormant Bermuda grass plays and find it’s color to be a non issue. I don’t recall a conversation whereby anyone has complained about the lack of “green” or that conditions were poor as a result. I’m not a snowbird but rather live year round in the Northeast.

Peter Sayegh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #41 on: February 09, 2022, 09:28:23 AM »
Saddened to see the "new" SPCC  apparently opens next week. Highest green fee I've ever seen for one of my favorite courses. I chose to deny the inevitable rate hike but still surprised by the percentage of the increase.
I wonder if they wanted to stay on Golf.com's best under $150 for another year.
Just bummed about it. Rant over.
P.S. Yes, I will still p(l)ay it when in Pinehurst

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #42 on: February 09, 2022, 12:29:17 PM »
 8)  Well, that's life as a retail golfer... I can remember something like $40 and not much if anything for the replay... of course that was 30-40 years ago... ::)
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #43 on: February 09, 2022, 02:53:47 PM »
November thru February, $85 to play Monday thru Thursday, even the weekend is $95.

Are these not updated?  https://www.southernpinesgolfclub.com/courses/

P.S.  For $95 in 2022, 30 years ago that would be $47, 40 years ago only $32.  What am I missing?

Peter Sayegh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #44 on: February 09, 2022, 04:17:41 PM »
Kalen,
Feb. 16-$55

Feb. 17-$145
 :(

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #45 on: February 09, 2022, 04:48:28 PM »
The tree removal on the left side of number 11 really opens and changes the look of the hole. It’s up there for driver/pitch holes.

Andrew Harvie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #46 on: February 09, 2022, 06:58:25 PM »
$145 is still a steal.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #47 on: February 09, 2022, 07:23:35 PM »
The Winter rate used to be in effect through March 1st. Tobacco Road did the same thing.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #48 on: February 09, 2022, 08:20:28 PM »
$145 is still a steal.


I know I am getting old, but, really?  A steal?


What should we charge in Ireland for the #55 golf course in the world that could still be considered a good deal?

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern Pines GC
« Reply #49 on: February 09, 2022, 09:11:45 PM »
Tough to get a tee time online.  Anyone have ideas for a late April booking?


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