[V_Halyard]

Interesting thread.
1: I like the Straits. Not necessarily stylistically but I am an unabashed supporter of it as an engineering and economic marvel. The land was a table top flat military base. Messers Kohler and Dye had the stones to build it. It defined an entire economy for not just a town, an entire state. They built public golf for the sake of golf in a place without a golf history on land that made no logical sense for golf and pulled it off. They could have sold a bunch of lakeside adjacent housing but did not.
For its era, it was a brilliant play.


2: Pros Payless To Play: With regard to playing for no pay, the Ryder Cup will post $100's millions ad and media carriage revenue. I'm for whatever deals the players can cut. The program depends on them for ratings, corporate hospitality, and advertising money. With Travel restricted, the media rights values for this one are through the sky.
The players don't get paid but you could assume there are a number of side deals in association with sponsors and advertisers, which they fully deserve. 

[Peter Pallotta]

Lanny Wadkins and Darren Clarke both love the Straits as a Ryder Cup venue:  Wadkins calls it the best matchplay course since Kiawah -- in part because no matter what your opponent does you still have no choice but to step up and 'hit a big boy shot'.

[John Emerson]

Not sure how this will be seen as a bad course or venue for the Ryder Cup when the previous venues were
2018: Le Golf National
2016: Hazeltine
2014: Gleneagles
2012: Medinah
2010: Celtic Manor
2008: Valhalla
2006: The K Club
These previous venues were pretty brutal in general. Not a single course I would say is better than WS. Most are not even on the same planet in terms of quality.

Never is the Ryder Cup looking to play “the most architecturally sound” or “best”courses.  It’s about putting on a show, and setting up holes for the home team to take advantage of in the RC format. Fan experience is a huge deal for this event also.  More so than other pga tournaments.  Valhalla isn’t the greatest course in the world, but it is a great tournament golf course for fan experience, especially the RC format.  Azinger and Floyd came down and spoke with a couple of us at the start of the week in 2008 and PA said “you all set this place up for us to win and we are going to put on a show”. They did exactly that. 
I may have misremembered but, I believe that the RC is the most profitable event for the pga…by a whole lot!

How much do the players get paid?  I believe the total purse for the PGA Championship was $12 million; eliminating a substantial portion of that expense is very helpful to the bottom line.

They don't and I don't believe they ever have. There is some charitable giving in their name, not sure how much.  However, can't the games best players give up one payday for the benefit of the organization responsible for all the PGA pros around the country?

Hell no.  Why would they give up money?  Would you work for free?  I know I sure as hell wouldn’t.

Work?  Or invited to be part of a team voluntarily? Have you ever given back via volunteerism to a non-profit?

It is how you view this event. Does everyone need to be paid for anything and everything in the world?  I sure as heck hope not, as the empathy and unselfishness we all demonstrate for others are some of the biggest emotions that binds us together. They aren't curing cancer by giving up a payday once every 2 years, but it sure makes an impact in the game they are professionals in.

How does it make an impact on the game if they aren’t paid?  That doesn’t make sense. Pay and giving back are mutually exclusive ideas.  This is the same argument that colleges use to keep from paying kids because they’re “amateurs”.  They know their worth and they should be paid accordingly, as should everyone else who is a professional.

[Kalen Braley]

John,

Normally I'd agree with you here, but given that whoever is good enough to play in the Ryder Cup has 1) already won a shit ton of prize money and 2) likely already cashing in on lucrative sponsorships, then its not in the same zip code as college athletes (who were previously barred from even taking a free lunch.)

Its simple, you wanna play and you OK with the arrangement, then play.  If not step aside, cause guys like Captain America would gladly take your spot pro bono.

[Carl Nichols]

Not sure how this will be seen as a bad course or venue for the Ryder Cup when the previous venues were
2018: Le Golf National
2016: Hazeltine
2014: Gleneagles
2012: Medinah
2010: Celtic Manor
2008: Valhalla
2006: The K Club
These previous venues were pretty brutal in general. Not a single course I would say is better than WS. Most are not even on the same planet in terms of quality.

Never is the Ryder Cup looking to play “the most architecturally sound” or “best”courses.  It’s about putting on a show, and setting up holes for the home team to take advantage of in the RC format. Fan experience is a huge deal for this event also.  More so than other pga tournaments.  Valhalla isn’t the greatest course in the world, but it is a great tournament golf course for fan experience, especially the RC format.  Azinger and Floyd came down and spoke with a couple of us at the start of the week in 2008 and PA said “you all set this place up for us to win and we are going to put on a show”. They did exactly that. 
I may have misremembered but, I believe that the RC is the most profitable event for the pga…by a whole lot!

How much do the players get paid?  I believe the total purse for the PGA Championship was $12 million; eliminating a substantial portion of that expense is very helpful to the bottom line.

12 mil is a drop in the bucket when talking about how much money the pga rakes in for the RC.  We are talking revenues are well into 9 figures.

What are the revenues for the PGA Championship?  My only point was that one cost of that and other events--the total purse--doesn't exist for the Ryder Cup, which certainly helps its bottom line.  I wasn't suggesting that the players don't otherwise benefit financially from playing in the RC, or that they should play for free, or anything else.  Just that the profitability of the RC must be  substantially aided by not paying out $12M or whatever.

[John Emerson]

Not sure how this will be seen as a bad course or venue for the Ryder Cup when the previous venues were
2018: Le Golf National
2016: Hazeltine
2014: Gleneagles
2012: Medinah
2010: Celtic Manor
2008: Valhalla
2006: The K Club
These previous venues were pretty brutal in general. Not a single course I would say is better than WS. Most are not even on the same planet in terms of quality.

Never is the Ryder Cup looking to play “the most architecturally sound” or “best”courses.  It’s about putting on a show, and setting up holes for the home team to take advantage of in the RC format. Fan experience is a huge deal for this event also.  More so than other pga tournaments.  Valhalla isn’t the greatest course in the world, but it is a great tournament golf course for fan experience, especially the RC format.  Azinger and Floyd came down and spoke with a couple of us at the start of the week in 2008 and PA said “you all set this place up for us to win and we are going to put on a show”. They did exactly that. 
I may have misremembered but, I believe that the RC is the most profitable event for the pga…by a whole lot!

How much do the players get paid?  I believe the total purse for the PGA Championship was $12 million; eliminating a substantial portion of that expense is very helpful to the bottom line.

12 mil is a drop in the bucket when talking about how much money the pga rakes in for the RC.  We are talking revenues are well into 9 figures.

What are the revenues for the PGA Championship?  My only point was that one cost of that and other events--the total purse--doesn't exist for the Ryder Cup, which certainly helps its bottom line.  I wasn't suggesting that the players don't otherwise benefit financially from playing in the RC, or that they should play for free, or anything else.  Just that the profitability of the RC must be  substantially aided by not paying out $12M or whatever.

150mil+ Last I checked.  That was 10 years ago so probably north of 200 million.  12 mil is a mediocre day in the merchandise tent

[John Kavanaugh]

I don’t mind saying that I nailed this one. Even the views of the course from the water look antiquated. More obsolete than collectible.

[jeffwarne]

I don’t mind saying that I nailed this one. Even the views of the course from the water look antiquated. More obsolete than collectible.

No worries for Mr. Dye.
Every two years we have the chosen(errrr-bought) European course for comparison to make the recent Midwest gems looks like Top 3's in the world.

[MCirba]

I have some issues with WS based mostly on lack of surface drainage but I suspect this week will only serve to enhance its reputation.

[Matt Kardash]

Whistling Straits is a fantasic Ryder Cup site. I just wish the American team would have set it up firmer. However, I get why they wanted it soft, it helps them out.
The 17th hole is an amazing hole, and even better 17th hole, and an even better 17th hole in the Ryder Cup. Watching Spieth have to hit that shot along the Wall was pure joy.

[Kalen Braley]

I read somewhere that the build/construction costs for the course in the late 90s was around $10 mill?  Was that right because that seems very low considering they had to truck all that material in.

...and especially when you consider a Yale renovation alone is $25 mill.

[Mike_Trenham]

Funny the course is set up fairly easy - which the owners probably love as the “retail golfers” will think “this looks like a place I must give a try”.


Yet if The PGA had this set up at a club like Butler National or Jupiter Hills there may have been members willing to engage in a fist fight with the officials.  But ultimately the net proceeds from hosting a Ryder Cup would offset any concerns.

[Matt Kardash]

I read somewhere that the build/construction costs for the course in the late 90s was around $10 mill?  Was that right because that seems very low considering they had to truck all that material in.

...and especially when you consider a Yale renovation alone is $25 mill.

From what I understand I don't think they trucked in as much material as you might think. I think they scrapped out the bluffs and pilled it up elsewhere on the course.
Someone here posted an interview with Mike O'Connor, who supervised the construction. He said they trucked in a lot of sand to fill in the bunkers.

[Will Lozier]

John,

Normally I'd agree with you here, but given that whoever is good enough to play in the Ryder Cup has 1) already won a shit ton of prize money and 2) likely already cashing in on lucrative sponsorships, then its not in the same zip code as college athletes (who were previously barred from even taking a free lunch.)

Its simple, you wanna play and you OK with the arrangement, then play.  If not step aside, cause guys like Captain America would gladly take your spot pro bono.

+10

[Rob Marshall]

Listening to this Paulson dude on XM ripping Whistling Straits was refreshing in it's ignorance. Is the lid off?

I’ll have to give it another look but doesn’t seem super appealing and a must play to me. Not sure what his take is as I’d never pay for XM. I’m no giant Pete dye fan but I did enjoy Pete Dye GC more than I thought I would but the bunkering was as bland as it gets. Loved the 17th green and that seems to be what gets all the criticism.

If you pay for XM you get Jeff Warne, worth the subscription

+1

[jeffwarne]

Seems tough to call features sharp on a course where the best golfer in the world on a given week might not realize he's in a bunker.

another Gamecock issue....

[Michael Whitaker]

Whistling Straits has turned out to be an amazing venue for the Ryder Cup. The infrastructure they have built will be THE standard going forward. 50,000 fans have the chance to actually see the golf being played all across the course. And, the golf has been fun to watch, with some easy, some hard, and some crazy holes to be played.

I think this event will do nothing but highly polish the image of Dye’s creation.

I’m impressed!

[Michael Whitaker]

Seems tough to call features sharp on a course where the best golfer in the world on a given week might not realize he's in a bunker.

another Gamecock issue....

Not a Gamecock, Jeff… a Chanticleer

[jeffwarne]

Seems tough to call features sharp on a course where the best golfer in the world on a given week might not realize he's in a bunker.

another Gamecock issue....

Not a Gamecock, Jeff… a Chanticleer

Knew that, Coastal, but from Columbia.
USC has admission standards(LOL-my son goes there)

[Mike_Trenham]

Seems tough to call features sharp on a course where the best golfer in the world on a given week might not realize he's in a bunker.

another Gamecock issue....

Not a Gamecock, Jeff… a Chanticleer

Knew that, Coastal, but from Columbia.
USC has admission standards(LOL-my son goes there)

Carl Paulson was a gamecock, class of 1993 and was SEC player of the year.  I’m a 1992 grad and USC’s admission standards continue to improve.

[John Kirk]

I'm enjoying it.  The course looks beautiful with the rough featuring a fall color.  Lots of rare play outcomes out there.

[Jeff Schley]

I really like the course, although feel they could lose 2/3 of the bunkers. Pointless and excessive IMO. What is really something I didn't appreciate when playing there is how Dye routed the front and back pretty masterfully in regards to wind justice. Very equal dispersion for helping / hurting.

[Rob Marshall]

Last time the PGA was there wasn’t short and left on 18 more swampy?

[MCirba]

The 18th is a clear contender for finest finishing hole for PGA Tour Professional level matchplay ( or medal) competition. What's better?

[jeffwarne]

The 18th is a clear contender for finest finishing hole for PGA Tour Professional level matchplay ( or medal) competition. What's better?

True, or any par 5 finisher changed to a par 4....


I really like that they walk DOWN to the tee.
Don't see THAT very often...

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