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rgkeller

Re:What minimalism means -- or who cares?
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2003, 07:21:54 PM »
"To me, it seems you are picking on the wrong people."

Well, everyone is entitled to an opinion.

tonyt

Re:What minimalism means -- or who cares?
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2003, 07:31:17 PM »
rgkeller,

Please wait. If your fears are realised beyond opening day, well said, and well forewarned. For now, let's see what they do first.

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What minimalism means -- or who cares?
« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2003, 07:40:24 PM »
"To me, it seems you are picking on the wrong people."

Well, everyone is entitled to an opinion.

That's really weak.   :-* You truly are a mud slinger who doesn't care to discuss things, aren't you?

With an attitude like that why bother telling us what you think?  Nobody cares about your opinion if it's based in mularky.

We all have opinions, opinions are like...............oh screw it!
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Eric Pevoto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What minimalism means -- or who cares?
« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2003, 08:16:46 PM »
There's no home cooking these days.  It's all microwave.Bill Kittleman

Golf doesn't work for those that don't know what golf can be...Mike Nuzzo

DPL11

Re:What minimalism means -- or who cares?
« Reply #29 on: November 18, 2003, 08:22:22 PM »
Eric,

I like your design, but unless that cup was already there, you can't call your design "minimalist". Sorry.

DPL11

Patrick_Mucci

Re:What minimalism means -- or who cares?
« Reply #30 on: November 18, 2003, 08:28:01 PM »
A Clayman,
Craig E- The ten mil Doak spent at TT is minimalistic when compared to TF and others. :-*

So the name of the architect determines if you classify the work as minimalist ?? ;D

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What minimalism means -- or who cares?
« Reply #31 on: November 18, 2003, 08:44:48 PM »

Adam,

      The point I was trying to make in my reference to The Rawls Course was that the site you get really determines the minimum amount of work that needs to be done to make a good course.

       You know there have got to be hundreds of minimalist golf course architects, you know the ones working with minimal budgets on minimal properties.  :)  

Eric Pevoto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What minimalism means -- or who cares?
« Reply #32 on: November 18, 2003, 09:47:33 PM »
There's no cup.  I've carefully placed the flagstick so as to disturb no soil.
There's no home cooking these days.  It's all microwave.Bill Kittleman

Golf doesn't work for those that don't know what golf can be...Mike Nuzzo

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What minimalism means -- or who cares?
« Reply #33 on: November 18, 2003, 10:23:56 PM »
When I first thought about the question, "What does minimalism mean?" I thought that a great site was required.  But then I thought about Talking Stick North, where the site was dead flat and is a minimalistic icon.  I think the ultimate in minimalism is all the dirt excavated from the bunkers is used to build up the tees and green complexes as required. Nothing is left over for containment mounding or unnaturally high tees.  

Cuscowilla appears to be a great example, as well as TSN.  Probably Pacific Dunes too, with a great site to start with. Was any fill imported at Pacific Dunes?

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What minimalism means -- or who cares?
« Reply #34 on: November 18, 2003, 10:30:25 PM »
I like Ian's take on minimalism. Therefore I think the definition of a minimalist is- An architect who builds the least amount of crap.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re:What minimalism means -- or who cares?
« Reply #35 on: November 18, 2003, 10:50:14 PM »
Bill M:  Actually, about 400,000 cubic yards of earth were moved on the 36 holes at Talking Stick, if I remember the number from Bill Coore right.  That really isn't much when you're trying to get a flat piece of land to drain, and I don't think they built up anything more than about six feet.  But it's not like they just dug out the bunkers!

I am beginning to wonder if Mike Keiser and Jim Urbina were right to tell me not to write about exactly what we did and did not do at Pacific Dunes.  Some will take it to mean that I'm not a minimalist; for others it will spoil their innocence about what it really takes to build a golf course.  This is all hard for me to understand, considering that I'm the same guy and it's the same product.

Can you guys really handle the truth?

JohnV

Re:What minimalism means -- or who cares?
« Reply #36 on: November 18, 2003, 11:00:36 PM »
Tom, as my mother used to say, "Tell the truth and shame the devil."  

I, for one, don't care how much dirt is moved as long as the finished product provides a strategic challange that fits the landscape around it.  I'm more worried about the ends than the means.  If you moved a big pile of dirt somewhere and created a great course I'd be happier than if you moved next to nothing and created a boring course.  And I'd certainly be much happier than if you moved a big pile and created a non-strategic piece of over-engineered crap.  I guess for me, the end justifies the means.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What minimalism means -- or who cares?
« Reply #37 on: November 18, 2003, 11:02:06 PM »
"Can you guys handle the truth?"

Minimalism as such doesn't mean too much to me.  Great site + great design = great golf.  "Minimalizing" such features as containment mounding is certainly a factor in the great design.  Average or poor site + great design = great golf may require less minimalizing, if that makes any sense.

"The truth?"  

Absolutely, it's fascinating what goes into the golf architect's work to create a playable, option-filled course that drains without looking artificial.

If that means moving more dirt, just don't pile it up into chocolate drop mounds or anything else that doesn't look like it was always there!

Thomas_Brown

Re:What minimalism means -- or who cares?
« Reply #38 on: November 18, 2003, 11:12:33 PM »
Tom Doak - Since I'm fresh from Apache Stronghold, I'm curious how much dirt you moved there.

It looked like that was a minimalist design in general.
Maybe the par 3 #3 you moved some dirt.
The Par 4 #5 green - Those contours couldn't have been there before?
Maybe the canyon hole #13 you moved some dirt?
#18 tee and canyon - Was that there before?

Jack Nicholson - "You can't handle the truth."

TEPaul

Re:What minimalism means -- or who cares?
« Reply #39 on: November 18, 2003, 11:19:42 PM »
"I am beginning to wonder if Mike Keiser and Jim Urbina were right to tell me not to write about exactly what we did and did not do at Pacific Dunes.  Some will take it to mean that I'm not a minimalist; for others it will spoil their innocence about what it really takes to build a golf course.  This is all hard for me to understand, considering that I'm the same guy and it's the same product."

Tom Doak:

Don't you tell in any detail what you did at Pacific Dunes. If you never tell I doubt even a sophisticated architectural observer will figure it out to any real extent. As far as I'm concerned that's a good example of architectural "minimalism".


Eric Pevoto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What minimalism means -- or who cares?
« Reply #40 on: November 18, 2003, 11:23:47 PM »
Isn't asking how much dirt was moved akin to asking a magician to reveal how a trick was done?

This whole issue reminds me of Tom Wolfe's book The Painted Word.  In it, he mocks the modern art "cognoscenti" who evaluated the quality of a painting by sidling up to the canvas and judging the amount of paint used.  
There's no home cooking these days.  It's all microwave.Bill Kittleman

Golf doesn't work for those that don't know what golf can be...Mike Nuzzo

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re:What minimalism means -- or who cares?
« Reply #41 on: November 18, 2003, 11:28:17 PM »
Tom P:  I'm dying to tell.  I've taken some pretty knowledgable people for tours of the place and absolutely stumped them.  Mike Keiser is even starting to forget what we did or didn't do, and he saw it happen.  At least I've got it all written down somewhere.  Guess I've still got to decide who gets to read it.

Thomas B:  Earthmoving at Apache Stronghold:
1-2-3 nothing.  4 lowered green / back of green profile about five feet to open up the view through.  5 a minimal amount of fill for back half of green.  6-7 nothing.  8 fairway contains all the fill dug out of the irrigation pond (Did you see it?  around the corner to the right of 7 green).  9 nothing.  10 we dug the second half of the wash from the landing area up toward the left side of the green.  11-12-13 nothing.  14 reduced tilt of Redan (natural slope about 10%).  15 thru 18 no real earthmoving.  Total:  about 40,000 cubic yards I think.

TEPaul

Re:What minimalism means -- or who cares?
« Reply #42 on: November 18, 2003, 11:44:40 PM »
Tom Doak:

Don't tell. If you do there're going to be a bunch of people on here that're going to tell you they knew all along and that's crap--I gaurantee it. Go ahead and tell anyone what you were thinking about when you designed and built some holes--where the inspiration came from and what the concept was to be perhaps but don't tell them what you found and what you made. Don't ever tell in detail what you made and what you didn't. If you never tell, you'll probably get some architectural egos claiming you manufactured something you never even touched and who has the last laugh then?

Thomas_Brown

Re:What minimalism means -- or who cares?
« Reply #43 on: November 19, 2003, 01:08:54 AM »
Tom_Doak - I'm stunned.  I can't believe it was all there.
That really is remarkable.

I did notice the spot to the right of 7 green.  There was a coyote hanging out over there. I would have never guessed the work on 10, and I was in the left fairway.

As I played the site, the armchair architect in me said that anyone could make this a great course w/ such great natural features.

However, I'll admit that I probably would have ruined most of the natural features.

Hopefullly, we'll get to play together at the Painswick outing in May, and you'll let me see the double secret PD routing guide. :)

Tom

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What minimalism means -- or who cares?
« Reply #44 on: November 19, 2003, 03:41:30 AM »
Tom D,

I wouldn't tell a soul about the earthmoving.  It is your trade secret.  No one needs to know and if you are achieving a natural look without anyone knowing that it was unnatural in the first place then why spoil it.

It would be like being a magician who performs a trick and then shows the audience how it was done.

Let them believe that the site was natural.  There are so many on here that just don't realise how much actually does get moved on a site.

Many here can't even comprehend how much 400 000 cubic yards is.  The largest earthmoving I have been involved with is 1 million m3 but that was to build the high speed railway from Oslo's airport to the city centre and that took us 1.5 years of 40 tonn excavators and god knows how many dumpers.

To give people an idea of how much (400 000 cubic yards) 300 000 m3 is think of this:

One Moxy dumper can carry approximately 20 m3.  So to move 300 000 m3 of clay or earth you need 15,000 truckloads of Moxy's.

A 40 tonn excavator can excavate approximately 1.5 to 2.5 m3 per bucket so that is 120 000 bucket loads at least.

The other thing you have to realise is that when we talk about earthmoving it is the compacted state we talk about.  When you excavate the material you are digging usually expands by about 20% to 40% depending on what you are excavating.  When we blast here in Norway we have to times the natural state of rock by 60% to get the blasted state to be loaded.

Lets get back to sand capping and how much work that actually is.

Lets presume that we use a short Par 4 as our median.  A short par 4 has an acerage of about 5.5 acres (Routing the Golf Course - Forrest Richardson) this is equivalent to  22 000 m2.

Now lets assume a capping of 30cm compacted for the golf hole.  Sand compacts about 30% so to achieve 30cm compacted fairway we need approximately 40 cm on the fairway before tracking in by the dozer.

So, here we go:

22 000 m2 of golf hole x 18 holes = 400 000 m2

400 000m2 x 0.4 = 160 000 m3

160 000 m3 / 20 m3 per truckload = 8 000 trucks needed to cap the whole course.

Lets now presume that a D6 dozer is going to push this out on the fairway.  Lets also presume that it is not going to push more than 50 metres.  According to my Caterpillar performance handbook a normal D6M can push on average 239m3 using a semi universal blade with an experienced driver working at approximately 80% hour rate.

160 000 m3 / 239m3/hr = 669 hours.  

So it is going to take at least 7 weeks to spread all of this sand over an 18 hole golf course using a D6M dozer.

Now I don't really care how a golf course is made as long as it is fun and looks as natural as it can when finished but for some on this website to say sand capping is minimalistic is IMHO just not true.  It requires a lot of man hours as well as money.

Minimalism in this day and age does not exist anymore.

Brian

Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

kwl

Re:What minimalism means -- or who cares?
« Reply #45 on: November 19, 2003, 07:22:59 AM »
FOUL!

I played the course Eric Pevoto displayed above...it was majestic, simple, strategic, and above all minimalist. Since I played, someone obviously "renovated/restored" it.

The architect has obviously failed to do his homework...did Rulewich bugger this one too?

Maybe a hole by hole analysis like Mr. Childs is presenting for Yale.

Mr. Doak, on a more serious note. This is obviously a relative notion/term-dependent on one's frame of reference. I would emphasize that minimalism connotes the minimal amount of energy in rearranging a site to produce the "best" course possible (ugly head of physics rears its head again). Aesthetically, minimalism would leave one with the impression that the finished product evolved from nature (mutations of grass in the proper spots resulted in tees/fairways/greens and natural selection fell the coniferous/deciduous trees as necessary). From a marketing/sales standpoint, it would be whatever the buyer wanted it to be..."Mr. Trump, that marble waterfall looks like it has been there since Rome fell, I think you're gonna like it."
« Last Edit: November 19, 2003, 07:33:23 AM by kwl »

Kelly_Blake_Moran

Re:What minimalism means -- or who cares?
« Reply #46 on: November 19, 2003, 07:32:18 AM »
I think what we are witnessing is someone trying to come to terms with a philosophy they expounded several years ago.  What minimalism meant to them back then has evolved, possibly become irrelevant, or restrictive, because they have outgrown the term.  Possibly either he wants to shed the stigma, or redefine it in order to make their career appear consistent with their initial foray into the business.  Every creative person has the right to mature, evolve, and try their darnest to define themselves as opposed to letting others do that.  And, every creative person does not want to appear to have abdicated their responsibility to a movement they helped foster if it still is meaningful to them.  Many here are more than willing to let him do that because of hero worship.  Or many here struggle with the definition of the term and are willingly to allow the leader of the movement to define what the movement means.  Or many here for some God forsaken reason like a guy that uses the term weenie!

A definition of the term might need to start with the historical use of the term in the art and architecture world, for which others on this site are much more qualified to render.  This definition when applied to golf architecture may have some important links, but it seems one issue separates golf architecture from the other disciplines in that golf architecture has much to do with the playing of a sport, whereas the other disciplines do not have that element and that seems to be an element that makes golf architecture and its relationship to minimalism profoundly different from other disciplines relationships to the minimalism philosophy.  For one, rarely do you see the golf architecture minimalism term “weenie” used in art or architecture, except maybe in the case of a Maplethorpe exhibit, but I am not certain if he was considered a minimalist.  

Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What minimalism means -- or who cares?
« Reply #47 on: November 19, 2003, 08:11:15 AM »
Tom:

     You should have an auction and reveal the secret to your earth moving to only the highest bidder. The money would go towards funding this site.

Kinda like Carly Simon did by auctioning off a revelation as to who she was referring to in her song "Your So Vain."  ;)

   
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What minimalism means -- or who cares?
« Reply #48 on: November 19, 2003, 08:24:30 AM »
Actually, with GCA having over 2200 members and less than 100 of those making a contribution maybe that's not such a bad idea!

Brian:

   Thanks for explaining some of real nuts and bolts of this stuff to neophyte amateurs like myself. More of these types of posts would give greater insight to all as to how involved golf architecture really is.

"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

A_Clay_Man

Re:What minimalism means -- or who cares?
« Reply #49 on: November 19, 2003, 09:34:50 AM »
Tom D,

I wouldn't tell a soul about the earthmoving.  It is your trade secret.  No one needs to know and if you are achieving a natural look without anyone knowing that it was unnatural in the first place then why spoil it.

It would be like being a magician who performs a trick and then shows the audience how it was done.

Let them believe that the site was natural.  There are so many on here that just don't realise how much actually does get moved on a site.


Brian- Thanx for the informative post, but, I'd like to touch on the artistic side of GCA.

The above attitude is fine in "business", and people need not jump on me because I know it is a business, too. I just find this 'paranoia' contrary to the spirit of golf.

When creating art, there should be (and is) a sharing of information with other artists and enthusiasts. The fear that plagurizers will attempt to copy shouldn't be a concern since the process requires much more than just the facts.

Honestly, how can gca evolve if everyone creating the art shut-up?

It guess it breaks down to whether the archie views what he does as a business or an art.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2003, 09:36:26 AM by A_Clay_Man »

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