Solheim Rules Kerfuffle

[Peter Flory]

I can't tell if the ball is overhanging.

That is EXACTLY the whole point.Some angles showed it overhanging, others didn't.
It is NOT the opponent's call to decide, until, the mandated amount of time has elapsed-then it does not matter.That's why there is a rule covering the situation.

I doubt the ball would've fallen in also. It looked to me like it got a "donut effect" and actually moved slightly away from the hole at the very end.
(but my opinion means nothing, and it certanly could've been blown in by wind, but was never given the "chance" albeit a low one)
Just leave the ball alone.
OT and very besides the point, BUT I'd be curious to know how many other times she picked up a ball, rather than merely conceding it.

Tony, how can the right call be bad for golf?
It sucks for both sides, but we're all making a lot of assumptions here.
Which is why there is a rule.
Polular opinion should mean nothing to the implementation of the rule, and "golf" will be just fine.

If it wasn't overhanging, then it was definitely the European players' call to make.  And they were adamant that it wasn't overhanging.  They had the best view of it as they were viewing it from almost vertically while the officials and the camera were oblique. 

Unless you question their integrity or vision, why would you ever question the decision that they made or their testimony? 

I think that the proper course of action by the official would have been to approach the Euro players and ask them if the ball was overhanging the cup.  If they said yes (and just didn't understand the rule), then the official should have notified them that they lost the hole.  If they said no, then that would be the end of the discussion. 

[David_Tepper]

"Lying around on the floor surely shouldn’t be part of ‘reasonable time’?"

Thomas -

Why make such a false and misleading statement? What is the point? Nelly Korda was not "lying around on the floor." You know that.

DT

[Thomas Dai]

"Lying around on the floor surely shouldn’t be part of ‘reasonable time’?"
Thomas -
Why make such a false and misleading statement? What is the point? Nelly Korda was not "lying around on the floor." You know that.
DT
[/quote
[size=78%]I’ll rephrase ..she was sitting on her knees feeling hard done by coz her putt hadn’t gone in.[/size]
[/size]And sitting on your knees feeling hard done by coz your putt hasn’t gone in doesn’t seem to me to be ‘reasonable time’.[size=78%]
[/size]Get up off your knees and get on with the game.[size=78%]
[/size]Atb[size=78%]

[David_Tepper]

Thomas -

Nelly Korda is the #1 ranked woman players in the world. You have made two misleading comments attacking her integrity.


In fact, she was on her knees for barely 7 seconds before her opponent denied her a chance to "get on with the game." Are you seriously suggesting that is a breach of golf etiquette? How many times do you think Seve Ballesteros did something similar (or much more lengthy) in his matchplay career? A dozen? Two dozen? More?

DT

[JohnVDB]

Thanks for this John. Who is the arbitrator of what is ‘reasonable time’. Lying around on the floor surely shouldn’t be part of ‘reasonable time’?
Atb

The referee/Committee would be the arbitrator in the end.


This interpretation gives some guidance.



13.3a/1 – Meaning of Reasonable Time for Player to Reach Hole
Determining the limits of a reasonable time to reach the hole depends on the circumstances of the stroke and includes time for a player’s natural or spontaneous reaction to the ball not going into the hole.

[Thomas Dai]

Thank you John.
Atb

[Jim_Coleman]

   There should be no integrity issues here on either side.  The Euros picked up a ball that no one thinks was going in. I often knock a ball back to the putter after a miss - saves a walk. And certainly the US did nothing wrong.  Some have suggested they should have conceded the next hole. No way. Even if it was a “bad call” (which it wasn’t), bad calls happen all the time in professional sports.

[Brian_Ewen]

The Huggy has spoken LOL


John Huggan @johnhuggan
I often roll my eyes and shake my head at what I read on the “golf club atlas” website. But some of the point-missing on there re the Solheim “overhanging” nonsense is truly breathtaking

[John Kavanaugh]

The constant talk about money is distasteful and brings nothing or no one to the game. None of the other major sports bore us with this during championships.


Right opinion - wrong channel.

[Sean_A]

I can't tell if the ball is overhanging.

That is EXACTLY the whole point.Some angles showed it overhanging, others didn't.
It is NOT the opponent's call to decide, until, the mandated amount of time has elapsed-then it does not matter.That's why there is a rule covering the situation.

I doubt the ball would've fallen in also. It looked to me like it got a "donut effect" and actually moved slightly away from the hole at the very end.
(but my opinion means nothing, and it certanly could've been blown in by wind, but was never given the "chance" albeit a low one)
Just leave the ball alone.
OT and very besides the point, BUT I'd be curious to know how many other times she picked up a ball, rather than merely conceding it.

Tony, how can the right call be bad for golf?
It sucks for both sides, but we're all making a lot of assumptions here.
Which is why there is a rule.
Polular opinion should mean nothing to the implementation of the rule, and "golf" will be just fine.

If it wasn't overhanging, then it was definitely the European players' call to make.  And they were adamant that it wasn't overhanging.  They had the best view of it as they were viewing it from almost vertically while the officials and the camera were oblique. 

Unless you question their integrity or vision, why would you ever question the decision that they made or their testimony? 

I think that the proper course of action by the official would have been to approach the Euro players and ask them if the ball was overhanging the cup.  If they said yes (and just didn't understand the rule), then the official should have notified them that they lost the hole.  If they said no, then that would be the end of the discussion.

Peter

Trust and verify.

Ciao

[Rob Marshall]

Thomas -

Nelly Korda is the #1 ranked woman players in the world. You have made two misleading comments attacking her integrity.


In fact, she was on her knees for barely 7 seconds before her opponent denied her a chance to "get on with the game." Are you seriously suggesting that is a breach of golf etiquette? How many times do you think Seve Ballesteros did something similar (or much more lengthy) in his matchplay career? A dozen? Two dozen? More?

DT

Saying someone is lying on the floor is attacking their integrity? I must have missed something. The announcer called it theatrics. Seve was magical in the Ryder cup. Some of the saves he had in 95 were incredible.


After watching it again I agree with Jeff. It looked like it actually rolled backwards. I also don’t think it looked like the Euro rushed to pick it up. I’m guessing if Nellie wasn’t down on the green she doesn’t pick it up. You have to go with rules but I don’t think anyone on either side was trying to get away with anything.


I heard on the PGA radio station that there are very few European fans. I wonder if it will be the same for the Ryder Cup?

[Rob Marshall]

“It was picked up so fast," Korda said. "I fell to my knees and my ball was already in my hands. I honestly didn't even get to see it."

I’m a Nellie Korda fan. This just goes to show how the mind works in these pressure situations. If you watch the video she looking at the ball the whole time. 7 seconds by my count and she watches the ball being picked up.

[Peter Flory]

Peter

Trust and verify.

Ciao

With Patrick Reed, for sure.  But not with Sagstrom.

[Peter Flory]

I have a hyper technical question out of curiosity. 

What if:
- Korda's putt was clearly hanging over the edge of the cup
- Sagstrom said "that's good" within a few seconds of the ball stopping
- Korda walks up to it and picks it up. 

In that scenario, would Sagstrom's concession be null since it would have been given before it was allowed to be given?  And would Korda forfeit her score on the hole by picking up without a valid concession given? 

[Tony_Muldoon]

I can't tell if the ball is overhanging.

That is EXACTLY the whole point.Some angles showed it overhanging, others didn't.
It is NOT the opponent's call to decide, until, the mandated amount of time has elapsed-then it does not matter.That's why there is a rule covering the situation.


I doubt the ball would've fallen in also. It looked to me like it got a "donut effect" and actually moved slightly away from the hole at the very end.
(but my opinion means nothing, and it certanly could've been blown in by wind, but was never given the "chance" albeit a low one)
Just leave the ball alone.
OT and very besides the point, BUT I'd be curious to know how many other times she picked up a ball, rather than merely conceding it.


Tony, how can the right call be bad for golf?
It sucks for both sides, but we're all making a lot of assumptions here.
Which is why there is a rule.
Polular opinion should mean nothing to the implementation of the rule, and "golf" will be just fine.

Jeff


Because every player watching will think do absolutely nothing unless you've checked with a rules official first. And just when you thought it couldn't possibly get any slower.

What non golfers make of this farago...well I (and you) couldn't possibly say. Although I can't help speculating that I very much doubt its , "How interesting".

[JohnVDB]

I have a hyper technical question out of curiosity. 

What if:
- Korda's putt was clearly hanging over the edge of the cup
- Sagstrom said "that's good" within a few seconds of the ball stopping
- Korda walks up to it and picks it up. 

In that scenario, would Sagstrom's concession be null since it would have been given before it was allowed to be given?  And would Korda forfeit her score on the hole by picking up without a valid concession given?

No:


See:



b. What to Do If Ball Overhanging Hole Is Lifted or Moved Before Waiting Time Has Ended
If a ball overhanging the hole is lifted or moved before the waiting time under Rule 13.3a has ended, the ball is treated as having come to rest:
   •   The ball must be replaced on the lip of the hole (see Rule 14.2), and
   •   The waiting time under Rule 13.3a no longer applies to the ball. (See Rule 9.3 for what to do if the replaced ball is then moved by natural forces.)


In stroke play, you don’t have to wait the 10 seconds, you tap it in without waiting.

In match play you can concede the next stroke while the is still in motion so there is no need to replace it as the next stroke was conceded:


Rule 3.2b(1) says:
»   A concession made while the opponent’s ball is still in motion after the previous stroke applies to the opponent’s next stroke, unless the ball is holed (in which case the concession does not matter).

[David_Tepper]

"Saying someone is lying on the floor is attacking their integrity? I must have missed something. The announcer called it theatrics. Seve was magical in the Ryder cup. Some of the saves he had in 95 were incredible."

Rob M. -

Yes, making a false or misleading statement about someone's actions that is clearly intended to impugn their sportsmanship is attacking their integrity.

There is an element of theater in all sport, especially in matchplay golf and especially in events like the Solheim & Ryder Cups. Nelly Korda dropping to her knees for 10 seconds is about as mild an example of "theatrics" as you are likely to see.

DT 

[Sean_A]

I have a hyper technical question out of curiosity. 

What if:
- Korda's putt was clearly hanging over the edge of the cup
- Sagstrom said "that's good" within a few seconds of the ball stopping
- Korda walks up to it and picks it up. 

In that scenario, would Sagstrom's concession be null since it would have been given before it was allowed to be given?  And would Korda forfeit her score on the hole by picking up without a valid concession given?

I don't think anyone comes off evil. Korda didn't cause a scene for a rules infraction. Sagstrom probably didn't think there was an issue. The rules official did her job. It's just that people react from the gut rather than read the rules.

Spangles, isn't your beef more with rules rather than the enforcement of the rules?

Ciao

[Brian_Ewen]

Rule 1 - Play by the Rules and in the spirit of the game.

[John Kavanaugh]

When was the last time since Pat Tillman an American professional athlete did something to make you proud of our country and sport? An opportunity was missed.

[A.G._Crockett]

Interesting discussion, and an unfortunate situation.  Thanks to John VDB, as always, for clear explanations of the Rules.

I watched this in real time, and at the moment it happened, and long before I knew anything about the rules official intervening, I didn't see a thing wrong with what Korda did.  It's not realistic to expect her to treat that putt just like any other; it was a REALLY difficult eagle putt in the Solheim Cup to win the hole and it just...stopped.  I didn't think the time she spent on the ground or the speed at which she got up was excessive at all.

I really like Madelene Sagstrom; I watched her play college golf when LSU came to the big womens tournament at UNC, and she just seemed like a great kid.  I don't think there is a reason in the world to think that she hurried to pick Korda's ball up before it fell in; not only does she not strike me as that sort of person, but she would have to be thinking awfully fast to process all of that.  She just reacted, and I think any of us in match play might well have done the same thing.

BUT we've all had putts that were partially overhanging the hole, with no realistic chance of going in, and that's what happened here.  Whether or not the ball had a chance of going in isn't really relevant; it's only the overhang that matters.  Sagstrom just went really fast, and at the moment it happened, that thought actually ran thru my head, if only for a second.  I don't think there is anything more to it than that.

As to the official, I don't think sports work very well when officials don't apply the rules consistently and objectively.  You hear fans say "Let the players decide the outcome" rather than an official's call on a last second play in football, but NOT calling pass interference that would have been called all game until then DOES decide the game.  This official simply applied a rule to that situation; unfortunate but hardly arbitrary.

As to the question of forfeiting the next hole to somehow even things up, that's just silly; there's no way to draw the line on that.  Should you forfeit the next hole because your opponent was in a footprint in a bunker?  Or when they are in an unfilled divot in the fairway?  Or when their ball hits a sprinkler head and goes in a hazard instead of rolling up on the green?  That's just not the way sports are played; there is good luck and bad luck, and you just play through it.

[Mark Smolens]

AG, I'm not certain that your final point is necessarily true. There've been numerous instances over the years where a tennis player has defaulted away a game when a referee's or linesman's error has affected the course of a match. . . The fact remains that the ball wasn't going in, and the hole should have been halved. The windfall from the clearly inadvertent breach of the rules could have been corrected by conceding the Euros' tee shot on the next tee, and they walk to the next hole having corrected the error.

[Kalen Braley]

I still find it funny that people watching on TV are saying "it definitely wasn't going to go in", I mean c'mon talk about your Couch QB'ing.

I watched the replays too and the point is, it was unclear if it had a chance, and when the Euro player ran over to pick it up, she forever altered the outcome.  Its the basketball equivalent of defensive goal-tending, the ball is bouncing on the rim, maybe it goes in, maybe not.. but when you grab it off the rim, then it for sure ain't going in.

And the pace of play argument?  Give me a break...spending a few extra seconds to see if the ball is gonna drop is not the reason the official told 'em to pick up the pace.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Wouldn't it be much simpler - and we'd no doubt avoid all these disputes and misunderstandings - if players just holed out? It's not as if conceding putts is speeding up the game. They were taking 3 hours to play 9 holes


The sight of a professional golfer looking for a nod or listening out for an "it's ok / that's good" when faced with a 6-15 inch putt is just silly. If you're clearly hoping your opponent gives you a putt, isn't that a very good reason for your opponent not to concede the putt?


Has there been a situation where a played picked up a ball after hearing "it's ok" and it turned out that it was someone in the crowd that said it, rather than the opponent? If it hasn't happened yet, it's bound to happen at some stage. (EDIT: I just read this may have actually happended in the Pettersen/Lee incident)


These situations are just open to too many misunderstandings. The Suzann Pettersen incident was another example where not conceding a putt (which was her right) got her in hot water.

[John Kavanaugh]

The announcers did the game no favors by acting like every four footer would be conceded. It felt like another way to trick what is seen as an ignorant public into fake ass fast play.