[Steve_Roths]

Sand Hills?

[Tom_Doak]

Streamsong should really have a good one, since on the shorter winter days they have trouble getting people out to play 36 holes in a day.  The par-3 course adjacent to the Black was still growing in when last I saw it, but I have not heard anyone gush about playing it, the way they do about Bandon Preserve or the Sandbox.


Rock Creek should have a good one, and they are starting to talk about doing it.

[Thomas Dai]

Any/every course irrespective of resort/muni/pay-n-play/private/etc any/everywhere if the land/money is available.
Atb

[jeffwarne]

Streamsong should really have a good one, since on the shorter winter days they have trouble getting people out to play 36 holes in a day.  The par-3 course adjacent to the Black was still growing in when last I saw it, but I have not heard anyone gush about playing it, the way they do about Bandon Preserve or the Sandbox.


Rock Creek should have a good one, and they are starting to talk about doing it.

Given that greens are generally the most expensive part of course construction/maintenance, wouldn't a compactish old school 9 holer fill the same(or better)bill?
And the tees could be generally smaller than a par 3 given that less irons would be chewing up the turf,and less tees would be needed if the holes/distances were less spread out
I greatly prefer an additional 9 to a par 3.

[Ira Fishman]

Streamsong should really have a good one, since on the shorter winter days they have trouble getting people out to play 36 holes in a day.  The par-3 course adjacent to the Black was still growing in when last I saw it, but I have not heard anyone gush about playing it, the way they do about Bandon Preserve or the Sandbox.


Rock Creek should have a good one, and they are starting to talk about doing it.

Given that greens are generally the most expensive part of course construction, wouldn't a compactish old school 9 holer fill the same(or better)bill?
And the tees could be generally smaller than a par 3 given that less irons would be chewing up the turf,and less tees would be needed if the holes/distances were less spread out
I greatly prefer an additional 9 to a par 3.

Jeff,


I understand the logic, but having played the Preserve at Bandon and the Mulligan at Ballyneal, I endorse the Par 3 idea wholeheartedly. Both just enormous fun even though quite different.


Ira

[Peter Flory]

Streamsong should really have a good one, since on the shorter winter days they have trouble getting people out to play 36 holes in a day.  The par-3 course adjacent to the Black was still growing in when last I saw it, but I have not heard anyone gush about playing it, the way they do about Bandon Preserve or the Sandbox.


Rock Creek should have a good one, and they are starting to talk about doing it.

It's more of a par 3 range than a course. 


It does seem strange that they haven't added one there.  Would be very popular for sure. 

[Tom_Doak]

Given that greens are generally the most expensive part of course construction, wouldn't a compactish old school 9 holer fill the same(or better)bill?

This is not a given.  It depends on whether you are importing greens materials.  At Bandon / Sand Hills / Streamsong, building out of the native sand, greens don't cost much at all to build, although they are still the most expensive part of the maintenance operation.

[Adrian_Stiff]

A 9 hole par 3 course can be built over a very small parcel of land, you can get a full size 9 holer in less than 10 acres, I have just done one in 5 acres but the holes are kinda 65-120 yards long. Greens are about 1/3rd the size of a normal green, I am hoping to build for £100,000.


Only thing I would say is that golfers/members don't really want to play them, the percentage of play compared to 'real' golf is very small mainly because members want a full game, those that do enjoy them usually live close and use it as part of their practice, or visitors wanting extra golf so quite good for resort golf.


Ideally if you are thinking £$£$£ they need to be easy so beginners can enjoy them so you could monetize them as a separate commodity. Almost like the next link up from Adventure golf.


You can still do super funky greens, one of the holes I am doing gathers to one spot on the green, its down hill and literally if you can hit the ball you could get a 1 if the pin is in this location.

[Mike_Trenham]

For me Shorty’s is the model.  It serves two purposes and the greens and tees seem to be maintained on a more minimalist level.  The resort could not get away with this at the price point of The Reserve.

[MCirba]

Painswick?

[Adrian_Stiff]

You think Painswick should put in a par 3 course? Where? It hardly has any money to maintain the course as is and virtually zero to make an improvement. Cleeve Hill could and they may build a hotel at some stage
.

[Sean_A]

Painswick's design tells you all you need to know about lack of space.

I would rather play a "full" course of much fewer than 18 holes than a par 3 course unless the par 3 course is exceptional to play and walk. I think of St Olafs and the Bann as perfect relief courses.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Adrian,
Thanks for the above insights. Always nice to hear the thoughts of someone who’s been there, done that.
In relation to members (as against pay-n-play) how do you find the balance between members who what ‘real golf’ and wee youngster just starting out, beginners of various ages, and older folks who want to continue playing the game but are no longer up to a full 9/18-holes?
Atb


PS - I have vague recollections of there being 2 x 18-hole muni par-3 courses in Ashton Park. I wonder if they still exist?

[MCirba]

You think Painswick should put in a par 3 course? Where? It hardly has any money to maintain the course as is and virtually zero to make an improvement. Cleeve Hill could and they may build a hotel at some stage
.

Adrian,


Sorry, it was an attempt at humor that clearly fell flat. 

[Michael Moore]

Only thing I would say is that golfers/members don't really want to play them

Amen.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Painswick's design tells you all you need to know about lack of space.

I would rather play a "full" course of much fewer than 18 holes than a par 3 course unless the par 3 course is exceptional to play and walk. I think of St Olafs and the Bann as perfect relief courses.

Ciao

I agree with this, based on laughing so hard at the Monarch Dunes 12 hole course that the rangers thought we were drunk.  The tee sheets were full on a Tuesday, which convinced me that the less than 18 concept was now acceptable to golfers.  Granted, this is a golf neighborhood with an existing 18, but it seems to fill up with non traditional golfers after work on weekdays in addition to being full on the weekends, whose basic complaint about golf is that it takes too long, so why not cut the number of holes?  Or, why follow a tradition created by old, drunk, Scots centuries ago.


So, my basic question is, hinted at by others, does anyone know the business aspects of par 3 courses and whether they at least break even?  Traditionally, they fill a limited market, i.e., lighted for night play, etc., and didn't really pay the bills.  I hope that has changed, but just don't know.  Thanks in advance. 

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian,
Thanks for the above insights. Always nice to hear the thoughts of someone who’s been there, done that.
In relation to members (as against pay-n-play) how do you find the balance between members who what ‘real golf’ and wee youngster just starting out, beginners of various ages, and older folks who want to continue playing the game but are no longer up to a full 9/18-holes?
Atb


PS - I have vague recollections of there being 2 x 18-hole muni par-3 courses in Ashton Park. I wonder if they still exist?

I think Ashton Court has done well since the pandemic, before it was probably on the edge of reducing to 18. At a course where I designed the first 36 holes they added another par 3 nine hole. I told them not to do it, that financially is was a loss maker and I lost the job to another architect. The par 3 course is very good but still has a very low volume of play as opposed the busy four nines. I am pretty sure they now regret building it, it is not a cheapy to maintain. On the other hand Thornbury 18 hole par 3 course is a massive earner, full with women, juniors and learners. At the Players Club I am building 9 holes more like that, great little holes but, slopes and swales rather than bunkers or island greens, so they don't lose a ball. The easy 9 holes will go with our current hard 9 holes (its like Augusta's with water) so it will be an 18 holes and from 10 onward's the holes get harder. My hard 9 is a lossmaker, our members don't use it but some visitors love it.
So my conclusion would be that really hard par 3 golf courses are a NO-NO. If you want to build them not to lose money they need to be very special. They can work at resort destinations where you are staying for a few days and want more than 18.
At member's clubs as a practice situation there could be a case, but they are financial bleeders.

[Tom_Doak]

So my conclusion would be that really hard par 3 golf courses are a NO-NO. If you want to build them not to lose money they need to be very special. They can work at resort destinations where you are staying for a few days and want more than 18.
At member's clubs as a practice situation there could be a case, but they are financial bleeders.

I think your conclusions are correct.  Bandon Preserve makes serious money [for charity] but it is pretty much a captive audience.  Club members can just go home, so a par-3 only works for a club with a lot of families in close proximity.


The Short Course we built adjacent to Common Ground was never intended to "make" money -- it is free for kids and $10 for adults -- but as part of the Colorado Golf Association's mission, it has been wildly successful as a community project.  They have tons of school participation and junior camps, and it is something of a funnel for their caddie program as well.  Every city should have places like that, but the question is whether there is someone who loves golf enough to fund it.

[Thomas Dai]

Thanks Adrian.
Very interesting what you say about degree of difficulty and popularity. I’m intrigued to see what your up to at The Players with your ‘slopes and swales’ par-3 course. I recall your existing ‘hard-9’ and also how you used slopes and swales on your Stranahan course.
A visit is needed but I’ve been saying that for a while. Hope the Greys Green project is going well.
Atb

[Jeff Schley]

I think par 3 courses are integral to kids playing and enjoying the game. Although I know counter to clubs/resorts, that is public golf and in larger cities.

For myself when I travel to resorts yes a par 3 course is great, especially in the higher latitudes/winter when you run out of daylight. One par 3 course I don't hear almost anything about on here is The Baths up in Blackwolf Run.  I like the photos, but haven't been.  Most major resorts have a par 3 course now.
BTW am I reading this correctly....Top of the Rock at Big Cedar Lodge ....  150 for a 9 hole par 3 course? 75 bucks for junior??:
April – October
 9 Holes: $150 | Replay: $100
 Junior (17 & Under): $75
March & November
 9 Holes: $130 | Replay: $85
 Junior (17 & Under): $75
January, February & December
 9 Holes: $100 | Replay: $65
 Junior (17 & Under): $65
Non-golfer Cart Riding Fee – $30
 Limit 1 Rider Per Paying Golfer

[Ronald Montesano]

The Links Trust, in that Scottish town.

[John Foley]

The 7 hole par 3 @ Streamsong (The Roundabout) is a bit it's different than the lot but cool an should be seen more. We played it 2 years ago as a 8 some and while tougher than the Cradle it was a blast. The 1st & 7th play out to and then back to the same green w/ two pins. I would think they could use another one especially over near the hotel for variety.



Not sure how many have played it but the Par 3 @ Longleaf (called Bottlebrush) in Pinehurst is fun also.


Where else? How about everywhere but the easy answer I would say is Erin Hills. W/ the available land I would think this is a slam dunk.


Not sure how much play they would get at private courses. Shelter Harbor in RI has one but does not appear to get much play.

[Tom_Doak]

Where else? How about everywhere but the easy answer I would say is Erin Hills. W/ the available land I would think this is a slam dunk.

I think that would fail.  They don't have much on-site accommodation, so there is no captive audience, and it's way out in the boonies.  Plus a par-3 offering is pretty much the opposite of the "8000-yard US Open course" upon which they market themselves.

[Tom_Doak]

The Links Trust, in that Scottish town.

In fact, quite a lot of Scottish towns have some version of a par-3 or a kids' course.  North Berwick does, famously.  Gullane has one over by the Old Clubhouse pub, just SE of the clubhouse for #2 and #3 -- you would just mistake it for an open park, but there are six holes there.

[Joel_Stewart]

For those who don't think a par 3 course is a good idea, I question if you've ever played a really great one like Bandon, Olympic Club or others.


Speaking of Olympic Club, Gil Hanse and his team are proposing getting rid of the Cliffs course as part of the renovation of the Ocean course. It would be typical of Olympic to make a bad decision but I'm hoping the membership would object to this.

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