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Phil Burr

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Prominent Courses With “Clone” Holes
« on: August 31, 2021, 09:15:43 AM »
With the Solheim Cup kicking off at Inverness, I’m hoping someone who has played the course can explain what differentiates the first hole from the tenth.  In aerial photography and from televised viewing of past events, they appear nearly identical.  They even share a fairway for the first 100 yards!  Was their routing just the best way to get the golfing away from the clubhouse and into better terrain?  Surely there must be subtleties that are lost on the casual observer.


Are there other prominent courses with holes that (outwardly) appear to nearly identical?  Torrey Pines South #2 and #5 appear to fit that description.  Slight doglegs right, parallel to one another, downhill second shot, bunkered left and right both off the tee and greenside, potentially more exciting if tees moved forward, etc.  What reveals itself to the player on the ground that is otherwise undiscernible?

Mark Jackson

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Re: Prominent Courses With “Clone” Holes
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2021, 09:30:08 AM »
Phil,


The difference between 1/10 at Inverness is primarily on the approach shot. The first green sits on top of a hill at about the same elevation as the fairway while the 10th green is a downhill approach with the green sited in a depression. The 10th green is the smallest on the course and (from my recollection) has quite a bit more movement than the first.


I also play the 1st and 10th a bit differently. With the bunkers only on the left on the 1st tee shot, I feel more comfortable hitting driver off the first tee, while the 10th has fairway bunkers both left and right on the tee shot (and its not a very long hole), so I typically hit 3 wood or hybrid off the tee to stay short of where the fairway pinches in.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Prominent Courses With “Clone” Holes
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2021, 09:38:33 AM »
The two holes at Inverness are a cool design:  cousins that look the same on paper but are very different in practice.


But there are way too many examples of these "clones" or paired designs on modern courses.  I must have seen 20 or 30 courses with the 9th and 18th holes on either side of a lake.  [Sometimes one is a par five, to distinguish it from the long par 4 across the way.] 


I've also seen a bunch of courses where the 1st and 10th holes are way too similar.  The TPC at Sawgrass is one example:  I think that was done deliberately, knowing they would be sending players off both tees in a tournament, so designing both as an opening hole.  For that matter, the 1st and 10th at Oakmont are quite similar.

Nigel Islam

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Re: Prominent Courses With “Clone” Holes
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2021, 09:56:14 AM »
The playing characteristics of 1 and 10 at Inverness could not be more different nor could the green complexes. It actually speaks to the genius of Ross that he can design two holes that can fool someone into thinking they are the same until you actually play them.

Phil Burr

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Re: Prominent Courses With “Clone” Holes
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2021, 09:57:40 AM »
TD, how many of the 20-30 9/18 hole pairings you reference date back to your work with Pete Dye?  It appears to have been a favorite ploy of his.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Prominent Courses With “Clone” Holes
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2021, 10:42:20 AM »
I recall working with a PGA Tour pro, who cited the PGA Tour design philosophy that holes 1-3 ought to be similar to 10-12 to equalize the start for players off 1 and 10.  The Pete Dye typical finish of holes wrapping around the lake was probably influenced by that as well, not to mention the finish of each nine with a 5-3-4 sequence.


I get it, at least for tournament courses and flat land where it's easy enough to create, but prefer the Ross/Inverness treatment of similar but different any day.


BTW, I once lost a commission by proposing a routing with parallel no. 1 and 10, based on a then recent round at Inverness, plus the way the land fell.  Some on the committee strongly rejected my plan as "unsafe" no matter how much I explained that the holes were further apart than all the other counter facing holes in my proposed routing, and that the bunkers between were larger than normal for both safety, filling the space, and looking marvelous from the clubhouse.


And, yes, I would say more gca's avoid parallel and same facing holes than those who embrace them, mostly for safety, and mostly because when holes use similar and adjacent topography running, they may work with the topo, but often turn out similar.  If it was hole 4 and 13, would it matter that much to golfers?  As in, if at the fourth you don't succeed, try try again at the 13th?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ira Fishman

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Re: Prominent Courses With “Clone” Holes
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2021, 11:14:30 AM »
Maybe not clones but aren't 1 and 9 at Pasatiempo and 4 and 5 at PH2 opposite sides of the same coin?


Ira

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: Prominent Courses With “Clone” Holes
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2021, 03:20:01 PM »
11 & 16 at The Woodmere Club were side by side and similarly aligned tee to green 200 yard par 3s designed by Robert Trent Jones.
The greens were individualistically well contoured and the lake that fronted both created slightly different angles.
They weren't meant to be exact clones, I believe he called them siblings or cousins.
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Prominent Courses With “Clone” Holes
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2021, 10:42:17 PM »
11 & 16 at The Woodmere Club were side by side and similarly aligned tee to green 200 yard par 3s designed by Robert Trent Jones.
The greens were individualistically well contoured and the lake that fronted both created slightly different angles.
They weren't meant to be exact clones, I believe he called them siblings or cousins.


I believe it was Mr. Jones who experimented with building two side by side par-3's on public courses, in an attempt to speed up play.  The group behind you would play to the other hole so they had a better chance of keeping up.  Not sure if it had the intended effect; it sure didn't catch on.

mike_beene

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Re: Prominent Courses With “Clone” Holes
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2021, 11:28:17 PM »
What about 1 and 10 at Champions? I can’t tell them apart in my memory, but maybe I am mixing another set up.

Chris_Blakely

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Re: Prominent Courses With “Clone” Holes
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2021, 12:26:16 AM »
11 & 16 at The Woodmere Club were side by side and similarly aligned tee to green 200 yard par 3s designed by Robert Trent Jones.
The greens were individualistically well contoured and the lake that fronted both created slightly different angles.
They weren't meant to be exact clones, I believe he called them siblings or cousins.


I believe it was Mr. Jones who experimented with building two side by side par-3's on public courses, in an attempt to speed up play.  The group behind you would play to the other hole so they had a better chance of keeping up.  Not sure if it had the intended effect; it sure didn't catch on.


The public course Jones did in Columbus (Raymond Memorial) still has all of the side by side par 3s (8 total).








Jeff Schley

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Re: Prominent Courses With “Clone” Holes
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2021, 04:30:52 AM »
Nicklaus tournament course at pga West 9/18 come to mind and share a green even.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

mike_beene

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Re: Prominent Courses With “Clone” Holes
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2021, 12:52:46 AM »
The course in Michigan where the senior tour plays seems from TV and maps to be two nines that mirror each other.

Steve Kline

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Re: Prominent Courses With “Clone” Holes
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2021, 09:23:27 AM »
Maybe not clones but aren't 1 and 9 at Pasatiempo and 4 and 5 at PH2 opposite sides of the same coin?


Ira


While I haven't played there since the par of both holes was switched,  numbers 4 and 5 are Pinehurst #2 are not all alike.

Jim_Coleman

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Re: Prominent Courses With “Clone” Holes
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2021, 09:41:30 AM »
   10 and 16 at Sunnybrook in Philadelphia are side by side par 5’s that start and pretty much end in the same place. Not a fan.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2021, 10:24:33 AM by Jim_Coleman »

Ian Mackenzie

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Re: Prominent Courses With “Clone” Holes
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2021, 09:44:46 AM »
Maybe not clones but aren't 1 and 9 at Pasatiempo and 4 and 5 at PH2 opposite sides of the same coin?


Ira


Speaking of "opposite sides of the same coin", I always thought that many Pete Dye courses had that trait on holes 9 and 18.


They would run down either side of a pond or small lake and basically play the same but inverted.


I heard he would excavate the lake for dirt used in mounding, but left the closing two holes on each 9 frame the lake almost as "clones".

Jeff Schley

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Re: Prominent Courses With “Clone” Holes
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2021, 11:02:02 AM »
Nicklaus tournament course at pga West 9/18 come to mind and share a green even.
Actually the PGA West Stadium doesn't play around the same lake, but are opposite clones.  9 is 453 bend to right around lake. 18 is 442 bent left around lake.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Jeff Schley

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Re: Prominent Courses With “Clone” Holes
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2021, 11:21:46 AM »
Staying with PGA West Nicklaus Private
9 - 410 and then 18 - 440 both playing around the same lake, one right the other left.
La Quinta Dunes 1/18 play around the same lake bending opposite ways. 376/384
« Last Edit: September 03, 2021, 11:27:23 AM by Jeff Schley »
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Prominent Courses With “Clone” Holes
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2021, 11:24:22 AM »
11 & 16 at The Woodmere Club were side by side and similarly aligned tee to green 200 yard par 3s designed by Robert Trent Jones.
The greens were individualistically well contoured and the lake that fronted both created slightly different angles.
They weren't meant to be exact clones, I believe he called them siblings or cousins.


I believe it was Mr. Jones who experimented with building two side by side par-3's on public courses, in an attempt to speed up play.  The group behind you would play to the other hole so they had a better chance of keeping up.  Not sure if it had the intended effect; it sure didn't catch on.


The public course Jones did in Columbus (Raymond Memorial) still has all of the side by side par 3s (8 total).


Never did that, but a few times, I used alternate tees from different wildly different and safe angles so par 3 players could all tee off at the same time.  I got the idea from a par 3 at Carnoustie, where playing on a very cold day, our mixed male/female group used both tees simultaneously to tee off, just to play faster and the lightbulb went off.  I figured two tee shots time saved at a few minutes each would help.


Even at those few examples, the idea never really took off as pros wouldn't highlight it, and players in at least all male groups wanted to play the same tees for social or handicap/competitive reasons.


BTW, I think it is the 10th that was featured in Golf Has Never Failed me, pointing to the folly of punch bowl greens, although IIRC, it did have an artificial looking swale behind it, rather than the kick slopes running right onto the green in a way that could be used.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mark Kiely

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Re: Prominent Courses With “Clone” Holes
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2021, 08:05:23 PM »
La Quinta Dunes 1/18 play around the same lake bending opposite ways. 376/384


Are we just talking about holes playing on opposite sides of a lake now? Because otherwise, those holes don't have much in common. Hole 1 is an extremely demanding and intimidating opening "Cape" style tee shot, and then the second plays to a significantly elevated green with trouble all around. Hole 18 tee shot has a much wider landing area and the lake on the right is the only real trouble on the approach.
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Jeff Schley

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Re: Prominent Courses With “Clone” Holes
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2021, 03:28:53 AM »
La Quinta Dunes 1/18 play around the same lake bending opposite ways. 376/384


Are we just talking about holes playing on opposite sides of a lake now? Because otherwise, those holes don't have much in common. Hole 1 is an extremely demanding and intimidating opening "Cape" style tee shot, and then the second plays to a significantly elevated green with trouble all around. Hole 18 tee shot has a much wider landing area and the lake on the right is the only real trouble on the approach.
Mark admit they are somewhat different driving width fairways, but both are slightly right to left approaches. I wouldn't say 18 has small trouble as water is greenside, whereas 1 doesn't have water greenside so you are safe although a smaller green. Not  an exact clone, but I would say very similar.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Anthony Fowler

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Re: Prominent Courses With “Clone” Holes
« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2021, 11:51:50 AM »
Great topic. I have thought about this quite a bit. It is very strange to see two holes that run parallel to one another, traverse similar land, and play similarly. I believe Ross did this more than any other respected architect. Here are a few examples:

1 and 10 and Inverness: We've already discussed this one. Yes the greens are different, but the tee shots feel almost identical, and with only short-iron approaches, the two holes seem to play very similarly.

5 and 9 (I think) at Peninsula G&CC in California: They're almost identical ~450-yard par 4s, the terrain is very similar, they're right next to each other, and they feel very similar to one another.

1 and 4 at Carter CC in New Hampshire: These might be the clearest example I've seen. The hole lengths are exactly the same, and both holes play up the exact same ridge to similar greens. This one seems especially odd because it's only a 9 hole course. The ridge is really cool, so you'd think it could have been used in a slightly different way on one of the holes.

1 and 10 at Skokie CC in Illinois: These two holes are different from one another, and 1 does play longer. But both nines at Skokie start with par 4s that start in the same place and head in the same direction down the same hill.

I can hardly think of an example like this for another respected architect, and here are at least 4 examples for Ross (and there may be more that I haven't seen or don't remember). I've wondered why he would do this. One explanation is that he was phoning it in (maybe he thought the shot up the big ridge at Carter was so fun that he'd have players do it twice in 9 holes). Another explanation is that he thought that by doing this, he could get more variety in the other holes. Few of us enjoy playing a boring routing that just goes back and forth. So maybe Ross thought a good solution was to play two similar, parallel holes and then branch out from there in different directions. But it's interesting that MacKenzie, Maxwell, Flynn, Colt, and Tillinghast had many brilliant routings and rarely (never?) had to do this.

Perhaps the strangest routing that I am aware of in this regard is Exmoor CC in Illinois. Exmoor arguably has 5(!) pairs of sister holes. That is, more often than not, you're playing a hole that has a sister hole on the other nine. The pairs are 1 and 10; 2 and 11; 4 and 13; 5 and 14; 6 and 15; and 7 and 16. Yes, the sister holes are often different lengths, and in two cases, the pars are different. But in every case, the holes are next to each other, run in parallel, play over similar terrain, and often play similarly. Strangely, the routing works well, and there is plenty of variety. But if you were re-routing the course from scratch, you probably wouldn't want so many holes that are similar to a hole on the other nine. (Potentially interesting aside: Exmoor calls itself a Ross course because Ross made some changes and recommendations in the 1910s. But Stewart Gardner is responsible for most of Exmoor's routing, so Ross gets a pass on this one. Although I wonder whether another architect would have recommended more changes to the routing. Ross apparently didn't mind the parallel holes, so he left it more or less as is.)   

Tom_Doak

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Re: Prominent Courses With “Clone” Holes
« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2021, 06:00:21 PM »


I can hardly think of an example like this for another respected architect, and here are at least 4 examples for Ross (and there may be more that I haven't seen or don't remember).
 


But Ross built 400 courses, so even if he did this twice as often as you mention, that would be 2% of his output.  2% of my output would see this maybe once in my career!

Jim_Coleman

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Re: Prominent Courses With “Clone” Holes
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2021, 10:07:26 PM »
   9 and 18 at White Manor - side by side par 4s in the same direction of similar length.
   10 and 18 at Philmont - side by side par 4s in the opposite direction of similar length.

Tim Fitz

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Re: Prominent Courses With “Clone” Holes
« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2021, 11:28:23 PM »
Perhaps the strangest routing that I am aware of in this regard is Exmoor CC in Illinois. Exmoor arguably has 5(!) pairs of sister holes. That is, more often than not, you're playing a hole that has a sister hole on the other nine. The pairs are 1 and 10; 2 and 11; 4 and 13; 5 and 14; 6 and 15; and 7 and 16. Yes, the sister holes are often different lengths, and in two cases, the pars are different.


Maybe it is a Chicago thing?  North Shore Country Club (C.H. Alison) has some front/back pairings that are pretty similar, even if not precisely clones.  The renovation has added differentiation between the holes, but there are still enough similarities to note. 


5 & 14 and 6 & 17 being the most obvious examples.  But 1 & 10 play somewhat similar (despite not starting from, or ending at, the same place).  And 2, 7 and 15 (par 5s) also have similar features, even if the length and the size of the pond on the front right of the green (three different ponds) differs in size.


What is interesting is that none of these holes are parallel to each other or necessarily run over the same terrain.