[Tom_Doak]

A handful of the some of the best GB&I greens which come to mind are

Deal
TOC
Beau Desert
Pennard
Leckford Old
Sacred 9
Dornoch
Sandwich

I played Beau Desert with Sean years ago, but I cannot see how it belongs in this list.  Otherwise, it's a very good start, to which I would add:


Woking
Portrush
Lahinch
Prestwick
Machrihanish
Muirfield
North Berwick

[James Reader]

A handful of the some of the best GB&I greens which come to mind are

Deal
TOC
Beau Desert
Pennard
Leckford Old
Sacred 9
Dornoch
Sandwich

I played Beau Desert with Sean years ago, but I cannot see how it belongs in this list.  Otherwise, it's a very good start, to which I would add:


Woking
Portrush
Lahinch
Prestwick
Machrihanish
Muirfield
North Berwick

Does Huntercombe not also deserve to be in this conversation?  I’ve (unfortunately) only seen it once but I came away with a strong impression of some incredible greens.


I’d also make a case for what’s left of the original greens on the Eden, with the least said about some of the others the better!

[Tom_Doak]

Does Huntercombe not also deserve to be in this conversation?  I’ve (unfortunately) only seen it once but I came away with a strong impression of some incredible greens.

I’d also make a case for what’s left of the original greens on the Eden, with the least said about some of the others the better!

Those are both good additions in my book.  My list was very quickly done, and I always forget to think about Huntercombe because I didn't see it in my original 1982 tour.

[Ted Sturges]

Turnberry

[Mark_Fine]

I will go out on a limb (a very strong one I think) and state that there are NO world class courses with a weak or poor set of greens.  Eric called those at The Black bland, but relative to what? I sure wouldn't describe them as weak or poor.  I have always said, it you put Winged Foot's greens at Bethpage Black, not even most of the pros would break 80!  It would be over the top difficult.  And if those greens were in the British Isles they would be considered well above average. 


We will all never agree on what defines great, but I think it is clear, there are lots of world class courses that don't have the greatest sets of greens.  And at the same time, there are courses that have world class greens (Tillie's Valley Club comes to mine as one example as it has a set of greens that are amazing) but the course over all is far from world class.  Like most things in GCA, everything in moderation.  Very very few courses, if any at all, that we give a Doak 10 have 18 holes that are all individually a 10     That goes for the greens as well. 

[Sean_A]

A handful of the some of the best GB&I greens which come to mind are

Deal
TOC
Beau Desert
Pennard
Leckford Old
Sacred 9
Dornoch
Sandwich

I played Beau Desert with Sean years ago, but I cannot see how it belongs in this list.  Otherwise, it's a very good start, to which I would add:


Woking
Portrush
Lahinch
Prestwick
Machrihanish
Muirfield
North Berwick

I would certainly include Woking. Its a no on North Berwick and Muirfield for me. Beau's greens are comfortly better imo. Perhaps this is due to subsidence, but nevertheless...🙂

Ciao

[Tim Gallant]

A handful of the some of the best GB&I greens which come to mind are

Deal
TOC
Beau Desert
Pennard
Leckford Old
Sacred 9
Dornoch
Sandwich

I played Beau Desert with Sean years ago, but I cannot see how it belongs in this list.  Otherwise, it's a very good start, to which I would add:


Woking
Portrush
Lahinch
Prestwick
Machrihanish
Muirfield
North Berwick

I would certainly include Woking. Its a no on North Berwick and Muirfield for me. Beau's greens are comfortly better imo. Perhaps this is due to subsidence, but nevertheless...🙂

Ciao

Tantallon will be receiving a letter about your treachery


In all seriousness - how can you not give NB the nod? 1, 3, 7, 11, 12, 14, 15, 16 and 17 are greens worth studying. That's half the greens, and I wouldn't say any green is 'weak'. But maybe as others say, our definitions are different.


Mark - an interesting point about greens worth in relation to the rest of the course. Perhaps not worthy of studying, but ensuring greens fit the course is important.

[Niall C]

It's funny, when I read Sean's list Deal and Beau were the two courses that I immediately agreed with. I thought the greens at BD were excellent. Probably similar to Rosses Point in that they are excellent in an understated way and suit perfectly the surrounding landscape.


Niall 

[Niall C]

One of the best sets of greens in England (from those I have seen) are to be found at Ganton.


One of the best sets of greens in Scotland can be found at Glasgow Gailes.


All three of those examples - at first glance - have little internal contour; but in truth have a whole lot going on - both within the greens and outside - that affects play back to the tee.


They are all “great” by any sensible measure of the word.


On the other hand, a course like Irvine Bogside tries to be great but doesn’t quite get there because its greens are indeed bland. In fact, I’ve argued before that a lot of James Braid’s work is really interesting for individual quirky features but really quite average in some of the design detail such as green shapes.

Ally


Very well said about Gailes and Ganton, and not just because I agree that both are great and have great greens but I think you sum up very well why they are great. Not sure though about Bogside or Braids courses in general (how much of Bogside is Braid ?), I'd have to have a think about that.


Niall

[Ira Fishman]

A handful of the some of the best GB&I greens which come to mind are

Deal
TOC
Beau Desert
Pennard
Leckford Old
Sacred 9
Dornoch
Sandwich

I played Beau Desert with Sean years ago, but I cannot see how it belongs in this list.  Otherwise, it's a very good start, to which I would add:


Woking
Portrush
Lahinch
Prestwick
Machrihanish
Muirfield
North Berwick

I would certainly include Woking. Its a no on North Berwick and Muirfield for me. Beau's greens are comfortly better imo. Perhaps this is due to subsidence, but nevertheless...🙂

Ciao

Tantallon will be receiving a letter about your treachery


In all seriousness - how can you not give NB the nod? 1, 3, 7, 11, 12, 14, 15, 16 and 17 are greens worth studying. That's half the greens, and I wouldn't say any green is 'weak'. But maybe as others say, our definitions are different.


Mark - an interesting point about greens worth in relation to the rest of the course. Perhaps not worthy of studying, but ensuring greens fit the course is important.

Re NB, I would add 9 and 10.


Of the courses I have played in the UK and Ireland, in addition to Woking, Lahinch, and NB already noted, the greens at St George's Hill were excellent in terms of variety, balance, and challenge.


Re the question posed in the OP, Ballybunion, RD, and Swinley Forest are world class courses without world class greens. And in the US, CPC, Pac Dunes, Bandon Trails, and Pine Needles fit that category.


I am making a distinction between greens and green complexes to meet the OP.

[David_Elvins]

I am making a distinction between greens and green complexes to meet the OP.

I think OP clarified that he meant green complexes. 




My personal opinion is that if you find a world class course without great green complexes then you need to drop if from your list of word class courses.  I reckon courses are 45% greens, 45% routing and 10% everything else.

[Jeff Schley]

Pebble

Well Sven keep in mind they are tiny!Also heavily bunkered to attack. So agree not huge contours, but as a complex they are quite a challenge. 5 is front to back tough green to hit. 8 & 17 are so very small. On 17 good luck if you are in the wrong half of the green as you may need to pitch to the other. I think 14 is a great green.

[Sean_A]

A handful of the some of the best GB&I greens which come to mind are

Deal
TOC
Beau Desert
Pennard
Leckford Old
Sacred 9
Dornoch
Sandwich

I played Beau Desert with Sean years ago, but I cannot see how it belongs in this list.  Otherwise, it's a very good start, to which I would add:


Woking
Portrush
Lahinch
Prestwick
Machrihanish
Muirfield
North Berwick

I would certainly include Woking. Its a no on North Berwick and Muirfield for me. Beau's greens are comfortly better imo. Perhaps this is due to subsidence, but nevertheless...

Ciao

Tantallon will be receiving a letter about your treachery


In all seriousness - how can you not give NB the nod? 1, 3, 7, 11, 12, 14, 15, 16 and 17 are greens worth studying. That's half the greens, and I wouldn't say any green is 'weak'. But maybe as others say, our definitions are different.


Mark - an interesting point about greens worth in relation to the rest of the course. Perhaps not worthy of studying, but ensuring greens fit the course is important.

I don't think of 1 & 17 as great greens. The green location is the best part of each, but the greens aren't great. 11 & 14 are two others I question. Excellent locations, but again, great greens? Mind you, given the severity of the locations the greens don't need to be special. Good works.

I too would add Huntercombe to the list.

Even if every course mentioned thus far meets the criteria, the numbers aren't jumping off the page.

I do think we throw the great word around far too easily. Hence the mantra, greatness is over rated.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Not that definitions around green quality can be standardised but if you think about it you have three variables in the discussion:


- Green site (use of natural macro-features to place a green in an interesting place and affect how the hole is played. This is Routing.)
- Green hazards (placement of surrounding hazards - including short grass - to affect the approach shots. This is Strategy.)
- Green contouring (shaping of the internal green. This can be a bit of everything but is also about aesthetics - looks cool - and interest in putting)


The blandest of greens have no interest in any of the above three categories. I don’t think any top class (never mind world class) course can have a set of greens that is average in all three.


I think there are top-class courses (thinking of a couple of heathlands) that have wonderful green sites and presence without having particularly interesting surrounds / hazards or internal green contours. But this holds them back from being world-class.


I think there are world-class courses without particularly interesting internal green shaping but with fantastic green sites and hazard placement / surrounds that affect strategy.

[Mark_Fine]

Ally,
Good post.  I always think of greens in terms of green complexes and not just the green surfaces themselves but how those surfaces are connected and integrated with their surrounds, approaches, etc.  We just had to rebuild a few greens on an older course that had become unpinnable and we had to modify much more than just the green surface to make it work and look good.  As such I think when talking about great greens it should include the entire green complex in that definition.  JMO

[Tim Gallant]

A handful of the some of the best GB&I greens which come to mind are

Deal
TOC
Beau Desert
Pennard
Leckford Old
Sacred 9
Dornoch
Sandwich

I played Beau Desert with Sean years ago, but I cannot see how it belongs in this list.  Otherwise, it's a very good start, to which I would add:


Woking
Portrush
Lahinch
Prestwick
Machrihanish
Muirfield
North Berwick

I would certainly include Woking. Its a no on North Berwick and Muirfield for me. Beau's greens are comfortly better imo. Perhaps this is due to subsidence, but nevertheless...

Ciao

Tantallon will be receiving a letter about your treachery


In all seriousness - how can you not give NB the nod? 1, 3, 7, 11, 12, 14, 15, 16 and 17 are greens worth studying. That's half the greens, and I wouldn't say any green is 'weak'. But maybe as others say, our definitions are different.


Mark - an interesting point about greens worth in relation to the rest of the course. Perhaps not worthy of studying, but ensuring greens fit the course is important.

I don't think of 1 & 17 as great greens. The green location is the best part of each, but the greens aren't great. 11 & 14 are two others I question. Excellent locations, but again, great greens? Mind you, given the severity of the locations the greens don't need to be special. Good works.

I too would add Huntercombe to the list.

Even if every course mentioned thus far meets the criteria, the numbers aren't jumping off the page.

I do think we throw the great word around far too easily. Hence the mantra, greatness is over rated.

Ciao

Sean,


Say it ain't so! The first is a BRILLIANT green. A L to R slope that accentuates the prevailing wind with a nob on the high left, it follows the natural flow of the land. No formalised bunkers but surrounded by the rocky shoreline, what's not to love?! Have you seen any other green like it?


Also, the 17th is a phenomenal green. A halfpipe/punchbowl that is not only a joy to putt on, but to approach from around the green with imagination needed in spades.

[Eric Smith]

[size=78%]The first is a BRILLIANT green. A L to R slope that accentuates the prevailing wind with a nob on the high left, it follows the natural flow of the land. No formalised bunkers but surrounded by the rocky shoreline, what's not to love?! Have you seen any other green like it?[/size]


Also, the 17th is a phenomenal green. A halfpipe/punchbowl that is not only a joy to putt on, but to approach from around the green with imagination needed in spades.

We're all nuts on here, don't forget, Tim! Put those two greens on a course here in Tennessee and there'd be 3 different podcasts launched simultaneously, Ran would send the scouts, and the airport would have to shut down for the drones!

[Thomas Dai]

A World class set of greens can make for a great course, despite the rest property. But can a course be world class despite their greens?

What needs to happen on the rest of the property to overcome bland and boring greens? What examples are there of courses that are considered great even though they have poor greens?

When trying to improve a course if the routing is troubled but the greens are great, is that a better place to start than having bland greens and a fairly sound routing?

A reminder of the original post and the questions it raises.
atb


PS - if you fancy playing a course with an all top-notch set of greens go play Mulranny.

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