[Wayne_Kozun]

"Their calculus might be different than yours.  If you get the vaccine and develop serious side effects, are those covered for free, or will it bankrupt you?  Is your job protected if you have to take extended time away, or will you out of a job when/if you recover?"

The exact same can be said for not being vaccinated, getting covid and ending up on a ventilator. How much will that cost them? It works both ways no?

Sure.  But you are not understanding what I'm trying to say.


What I'm saying is, if you were living a very precarious existence, why would you trust the people telling you to get a shot, when they have never done anything to demonstrate that they cared about your circumstances?  And then would you be more inclined to trust them as they got more shrill and preachy and started to suggest ways to force you to do it?


I just think people should actually think about walking in someone else's shoes for a minute.  So I tried.

This sounds like the current YOLO mentality with Robinhood "investors" in the stock market and crypto.  Get a stimmy check and try to YOLO it into big money with low delta options or Dogecoin.  If you go bankrupt - who cares.

[Rob Marshall]

“I did hear from one my golf mates leaving for London tomorrow that he was charged $200 for his required Covid test before departure, and has made arrangements for the two mandatory follow-up tests in the UK, each costing £200.  Seems like a racket to me.  Any cheaper options out there?”

I have a cough, I assume allergies. My assistant is always worried about Covid. I picked up 2 self tests from CVS for $25. It’s a racket.

[Tom_Doak]

“I did hear from one my golf mates leaving for London tomorrow that he was charged $200 for his required Covid test before departure, and has made arrangements for the two mandatory follow-up tests in the UK, each costing £200.  Seems like a racket to me.  Any cheaper options out there?”

Yes, I got caught up in that this summer on my way into Scotland.  It is an absolute racket, but good luck avoiding it:  when I was going in, you COULD NOT COMPLETE the official Passenger Locator Form required for entry without a proof-of-purchase "confirmation code" from the sole designated provider of follow-up tests, a travel agency, linked on the Passenger Locator Form.  I had to call them and it was answered by a guy with kids crying in the background.  I presume the agency is owned by one of Boris Johnson's friends?

[Tim Leahy]

Tom - currently, 98% of those seriously ill with COVID are unvaccinated. That says all I need to know. It baffles me... the goofy rationale people come up with to not get vaccinated for the common good.


I'm a bit older than you and I remember the Polio pandemic. It was a terribly horrific and frightening time. Everyone was afraid to go anywhere. Children in iron lungs and metal leg braces. The Polio vaccine was a Godsend, and we willingly lined up to get get our dose. How times have changed. 


What if a significant percentage of the public had refused the Polio vaccine? What if they had insisted they had the "right" to refuse the vaccine and still be able to go anywhere they wanted and participate in any public activity... just because they didn't want their "liberty" infringed. We would have had a very different outcome.


At some point everyone has to understand we live in a community and need to act for the common good. We've done it before. But, in today's world of Facebook and Twitter it seems too many people are just out for themselves and don't really give a crap what happens to their neighbors.


I have no time or sympathy for someone who refuses the vaccine for "personal liberty" reasons.

+1000

[Michael Whitaker]

This sums up the COVID battle fairly well, I think… and why it is important to limit the opportunity for the virus to spread and mutate using our greatest weapon, the vaccines:


https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/08/coronavirus-evolution-vaccines/619875/


It’s simple… those who refuse to get vaccinated or wear a mask in public spaces are putting everyone at risk and prolonging this nightmare. Period.

[Niall C]

Re the cost of testing; in a few weeks time I'm flying off to Spain with friends on a golfing holiday (rules permitting) and we've booked a company to come to our hotel 3 days before we fly back to give us a COVID test. It's costing us 55 euros each. Considering that is less than what you would pay someone to lug your clubs round the Old Course, I'd say that is pretty good value when you think also why you are doing it.

As Mike says, it is selfish not to get vaccinated or wear a mask in public where required, unless exempt for some reason.

Niall

[David_Elvins]

Their calculus might be different than yours.  If you get the vaccine and develop serious side effects, are those covered for free, or will it bankrupt you?  Is your job protected if you have to take extended time away, or will you out of a job when/if you recover?

The average hospital bill for covid-19 in the USA is $70,000. [size=78%]



The vaccine is free.  If you are serious that people are making a financial decision to stay unvaccinated,  that is pretty sad, but still seems so illogical as to be inexcusable.

Effects like that might seem a little more immediate to them than the chance of dying from coronavirus, especially if they have lived the last year and a half while avoiding coronavirus.  [And I will agree that their chances of getting it are more than they estimate based on hindsight, because of the Delta variant.]

Everyone will get exposed to COVID-19.  Surely the only calculus is whether you want to be vaccinated when you get it?

[/size]

[jeffwarne]

Their calculus might be different than yours.  If you get the vaccine and develop serious side effects, are those covered for free, or will it bankrupt you?  Is your job protected if you have to take extended time away, or will you out of a job when/if you recover?

The average hospital bill for covid-19 in the USA is $70,000. [size=78%]



The vaccine is free.  If you are serious that people are making a financial decision to stay unvaccinated,  that is pretty sad, but still seems so illogical as to be inexcusable.

Effects like that might seem a little more immediate to them than the chance of dying from coronavirus, especially if they have lived the last year and a half while avoiding coronavirus.  [And I will agree that their chances of getting it are more than they estimate based on hindsight, because of the Delta variant.]

Everyone will get exposed to COVID-19.  Surely the only calculus is whether you want to be vaccinated when you get it?

[/size]

That's it exactly. We ALL are going to be exposed to Covid 19, if we haven't been already, especially the Delta variant and whatever variant comes next.
The real question is how sick you will get.

[Tom_Doak]

 As he puts it, the year and a half of avoiding it make them think they won't get it(even though many of them already did)
"News" networks, political leaders and churches could go a long way to influencng their audiences, but have framed the argument wrong for the angry,ignorant and gullible who simply aren't going to listen to anyone they don't trust, forgetting those they trust have an agenda of their own.

There's a lot of anger on both sides of this question, as demonstrated here over the course of many months.


"Ignorant" is a touchy word, implying that the user is Smart, and the subject is Not.  It doesn't help the situation much.  And there is nothing so Ignorant as someone who believes they have all the facts necessary, even when the evidence keeps changing.


I just don't want anybody on either side to be Gullible.  The vaccines seem to be starting to lose their effectiveness at preventing the spread of the virus -- either because they wear down over time, or because they're less effective against Delta, or both.  The situation is still quite dangerous, and it is not all the fault of the unvaccinated.  You can be infected even if you've been vaccinated [despite what the director of the CDC said two months ago], and if you're infected you can spread the virus, too.  So please be careful out there, no matter what your politics or religion.


Yelling makes the virus spread more.

[Michael Whitaker]

Tom - read the article I posted. It explains the situation very well, and underlines WHY it is important as many people as possible get vaccinated. The more opportunities the virus has to mutate the more dangerous it is to EVERYONE. I don’t understand why this is such a difficult concept for the unvaccinated to understand.

[Wayne_Kozun]

I find it interesting to watch New Zealand right now.  They are still following a Covid-Zero strategy.  They are under a lockdown and are aggressively tracing each case, almost all of which have been in Auckland.  Case numbers have continued to rise, which they expect, but they think that the peak should be pretty soon -like today or so.  But it is possible that they will lose control and even people that take precautions, and only go out for essentials, will still continue to spread it throughout the population.  They are vaccinating, but are at pretty low levels - 40% partially vaccinated and 22% fully vaccinated.

[jeffwarne]

 As he puts it, the year and a half of avoiding it make them think they won't get it(even though many of them already did)
"News" networks, political leaders and churches could go a long way to influencng their audiences, but have framed the argument wrong for the angry,ignorant and gullible who simply aren't going to listen to anyone they don't trust, forgetting those they trust have an agenda of their own.

There's a lot of anger on both sides of this question, as demonstrated here over the course of many months.


"Ignorant" is a touchy word, implying that the user is Smart, and the subject is Not.  It doesn't help the situation much.  And there is nothing so Ignorant as someone who believes they have all the facts necessary, even when the evidence keeps changing.


I just don't want anybody on either side to be Gullible.  The vaccines seem to be starting to lose their effectiveness at preventing the spread of the virus -- either because they wear down over time, or because they're less effective against Delta, or both.  The situation is still quite dangerous, and it is not all the fault of the unvaccinated.  You can be infected even if you've been vaccinated [despite what the director of the CDC said two months ago], and if you're infected you can spread the virus, too.  So please be careful out there, no matter what your politics or religion.


Yelling makes the virus spread more.

Polite discussion is not yelling.
My kids used to say I was yelling when I told them something they did not want to hear.


Agreed, that the facts/research change daily.
The key to dealing with this has to been to adapt-as the guidance changes.
And nobody has all the answers.
It's OK to say "I don't know", because even the scientists have had to adapt and reconsider guidance, but that doesn't make future guidance automatically wrong.

[Tim Martin]

As someone who smoked enough Marlboro/Marlboro Lights in another life to take down a jungle full of elephants I never liked my chances of a positive outcome from the virus sans vaccine. The vaccine delivered on an emotional level as well as providing a large degree of physical immunity. I’m looking forward to getting the booster shot!!!

[Tommy Williamsen]

One of the sadder aspects of this vaccination issue is how little some people trust government agencies. Some of it was earned mistrust but some is just what people have been told by unreliable sources. As someone mentioned previously, when the polio vaccine came out, we just lined up at school and got vaccinated. No marches, we just got it and we pretty much eradicated polio. I am distressed that people are putting their lives in danger because they listen to folks, who in my way of thinking, are just nuts.

[Kalen Braley]

Another point of context is the typical flu shot effectiveness from year to year.

On average they only give the broader full protection for the first 3-4 months, and then wanes by 6 months in...which hopefully will be the end of the normal flu season.  (October - March).

I'm not a scientist and don't know how COVID-19 vaccines compare, but given most got it in March and April, we're getting close to the 6 months and not surprised to see more and more "break-thru" cases.

The key take-away as I see it, is as Mike mentioned, its all the more reason for people to get vaccinated in a timely manner to get it under control before other worse mutations occur or the original one starts to lose effectiveness.  And I think this is the most frustrating part for those of us who have been vaccinated.

[Rob Marshall]

One of the sadder aspects of this vaccination issue is how little some people trust government agencies. Some of it was earned mistrust but some is just what people have been told by unreliable sources. As someone mentioned previously, when the polio vaccine came out, we just lined up at school and got vaccinated. No marches, we just got it and we pretty much eradicated polio. I am distressed that people are putting their lives in danger because they listen to folks, who in my way of thinking, are just nuts.

The government is a cluster. The last administration was and so is the current. It’s not about politics. It’s about saving lives.

[Tim Leahy]

One of the sadder aspects of this vaccination issue is how little some people trust government agencies. Some of it was earned mistrust but some is just what people have been told by unreliable sources. As someone mentioned previously, when the polio vaccine came out, we just lined up at school and got vaccinated. No marches, we just got it and we pretty much eradicated polio. I am distressed that people are putting their lives in danger because they listen to folks, who in my way of thinking, are just nuts.

Well said.

[Kalen Braley]

This just popped up in my news feed.  If you're planning on going over soon from the US, I'd double check the status of your destination country.

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/eu-travel-restrictions-intl-hnk/index.html

[Ian Mackenzie]

When the unvaccinated start feeling financial stress, then some may opt in.


First, the Pfizer shot got full FDA approval. That will bring in more.
Second, my guess is that insurance carriers will start charging higher premiums for the unvaccinated and treat them similarly to smokers.


(It is 100% understood that smoking can kill you, yet millions still do it. The unvaccinated may have a similar mindset.)


Finally, what if insurance companies cap hospital/treatment coverage and reimbursements for the unvaccinated in the event they are hospitalized with COVIS?


Someone said above that the charges can be $70K...?


Tell some unvaccintaed person the Rona can kill you and he/she can shrug and respond, "Yeah, says you...!"
Tell that same person that that catching the Rona could cost them $50-$100K and watch the vaccination rates rise...;-)


Carrot, please meet the free market stick...;-)

[Daryl David]

This just popped up in my news feed.  If you're planning on going over soon from the US, I'd double check the status of your destination country.

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/eu-travel-restrictions-intl-hnk/index.html

If I was unvaccinated and planning a trip, I would start checking. A few EU countries “might” impose restrictions on them. As for the fully vaccinated, I don’t expect anything to change.

[Mike Wagner]

It’s simple… those who refuse to get vaccinated or wear a mask in public spaces are putting everyone at risk and prolonging this nightmare. Period.



In what type of public spaces?  Can you say FOR FACT not wearing a mask in a public space is putting people at risk? How close must one be standing to someone else to put them at risk?  How deeply is that person breathing in?  What if the droplets the CDC has been talking about is actually wrong?  What if it's really the aerosol we should be worried about? What if that aerosol is thousands of times smaller than the weave of the typical pathetic mask and it actually does nothing to protect you? What if we're keeping good bacteria out? What if our immune systems were actually being threatened?  What if we were getting less oxygen because of masks?  So many what ifs ... but I guess people that don't wear them are the problem .. period. Please educate us as you seem to definitively have the answers on who to blame.  I certainly don't, but I wish I was as smart as all of you who definitely know all the answers and know what is best for everyone else. I do not.

[Bryan Izatt]

It's a fact that it is a Novel virus. It is a fact that nobody knows all the answers absolutely yet.  You might want to read the linked report that summarizes studies into transmission of Covid. 


https://www.publichealthontario.ca/-/media/documents/ncov/covid-wwksf/2021/05/wwksf-transmission-respiratory-aerosols.pdf?la=en

Amongst conclusions from the report:

"SARS-CoV-2 is transmitted most frequently and easily at short range through exposure to
respiratory particles that range in size from large droplets which fall quickly to the ground to
smaller droplets, known as aerosols, which can remain suspended in the air."

"There is evidence to suggest long-range transmission can occur under the right set of favourable
conditions, implicating aerosols in transmission."

"The relative role of large respiratory droplets versus smaller droplet particles in short-range
transmission is challenging to quantify. Their contributions to a specific case-contact interaction
vary based on contextual factors including source/receptor characteristics (e.g., forceful
expulsions such as singing, coughing, sneezing; viral load) and pathway characteristics (e.g.,
duration of exposure; environmental conditions such as ventilation, temperature, humidity,
ultraviolet light; source control; and use of personal protective equipment)."

"Translation of this summary into control measures needs to take into consideration other
information, such as evidence around the effectiveness of control measures to date. Several
control measures applied together in a layered approach are likely to be effective irrespective of
the relative contribution of droplets or aerosols, including achieving high vaccination coverage
and avoiding the “3 C’s” (closed spaces, crowded places and close contact)."

Re the last conclusion, it is also a fact that the wearing of masks will limit the spread of droplets and aerosols from an infected person who is coughing, sneezing, singing or shouting.  It is less clear how much masks protect the receiver of aerosolized virus, so best to try to limit the spread at the source person.  It is also a fact that we often don't know who has the virus and is contagious.  It seems so easy and probably self-protective to wear a mask if there is a need to enter a 3C space.
 

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