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Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do the cool people really know affordable golf?
« Reply #25 on: August 27, 2021, 10:32:29 AM »

I tend to be more impressed with places like Winter Park where a team can take a renovate an existing course for $1mln, and while running lean (no carts, small clubhouse, no restaurant) can offer good quality golf for ~$20.


I've heard nothing but great things about Winter Park, but, if you're going to make comparisons there you should really double the numbers, since it is only a nine hole course.

I always double 9 hole green fees to compare with 18 holers. Often times 9 holers still offer great value.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do the cool people really know affordable golf?
« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2021, 10:50:04 AM »
Thanks for the comments.  Let me explain my definition of affordable in another way.  If a muni or a university is subsidizing the construction and/or operation of the facility then, yes, it may be affordable to the consumer but it does not sustain itself without the subsidies.  I'm not calling that affordable golf. 


I'm talking about golf where the owner is able to sell a product to a consumer at a price that allows him to operate and make a reasonable profit.  I don't care how he financed it, how he maintains it or handles food service.  The guys in the business that can do that are guys I'm calling affordable.  I enjoy the places like Bandon, Sand Valley or any of the $1000 day hits BUT those are special destinations just like fine dining.  That's not what we eat at home each evening.. 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Do the cool people really know affordable golf?
« Reply #27 on: August 27, 2021, 10:56:55 AM »
Thanks for the comments.  Let me explain my definition of affordable in another way.  If a muni or a university is subsidizing the construction and/or operation of the facility then, yes, it may be affordable to the consumer but it does not sustain itself without the subsidies.  I'm not calling that affordable golf. 


I'm talking about golf where the owner is able to sell a product to a consumer at a price that allows him to operate and make a reasonable profit.  I don't care how he financed it, how he maintains it or handles food service.  The guys in the business that can do that are guys I'm calling affordable.  I enjoy the places like Bandon, Sand Valley or any of the $1000 day hits BUT those are special destinations just like fine dining.  That's not what we eat at home each evening..




Mike:


But how is an "unfortunate previous owner who spent $5m and let the next owner have it for $0," different than a donor?   :D

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do the cool people really know affordable golf?
« Reply #28 on: August 27, 2021, 10:57:13 AM »
Seems a lot of cities out West (outside of California) have great public offerings at relatively cheap rates.  A few areas I've played in or around, Salt Lake, Spokane, Seattle, Denver, Albuquerque all have good options. Boise and Portland have decent options too as I understand it.

Looking back to Mike's OP, i think he is exactly right.  The so-called "un-cool"  folks who run these local outfits may in fact be saving golf, especially if looking at it from the lens of % of where most rounds are played.


P.S.  Thanksgiving Point here in Utah where they've held Korn Ferry events is very affordable.  Under $50 to walk in peak period on the weekend,  even less during the week.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do the cool people really know affordable golf?
« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2021, 11:06:59 AM »


Mike:


But how is an "unfortunate previous owner who spent $5m and let the next owner have it for $0," different than a donor?   :D



The free enterprise system at work.. ;D ;D ;D    And you are right....the initial cost has to be addressed...( you know that). Toro needs a greens mower from $15,000 to $50,000 not just a $50,000.  Irrigation needs to be $600,000 to $2,000,000 not just $2,000,000 and there are ways to do it but the "golf business/industry" doesn't do it...same as the distance issue...JMO

"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do the cool people really know affordable golf?
« Reply #30 on: August 27, 2021, 11:22:41 AM »
...

 It was a park before pouring $22 million to build the course.

...

It would help if you got your facts right. It was operated as a sand and gravel mine until 2003, just before the reclamation into golf course and parkland began.

Since Ferry Point cost 236 million, maybe Pierce County got a deal.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Charles Lund

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do the cool people really know affordable golf?
« Reply #31 on: August 27, 2021, 11:44:27 AM »
1.  Kemper Sports still runs Chambers Bay.
2.  My last round there was in 2014, when there were about five temporary greens so original greens could be restored/rebuilt/given a rest.


The site in the late 90s was an eyesore.  I often took a ferry to do some work at the prison and forensic mental health setting on McNeil Island.  I thought of the old open pit copper mine in Butte, Montana when viewing the site from the ferry.  The park and pathways provide a suitable outdoor recreation area.  So there is some benefit to reclaiming land that was fully depreciated as a source of construction materials for highways and residential infrastructure around the area.


Gold Mountain Olympic was finished in 1996, so John Harbottle's work was known to people in the area and his family resided in the area.  It actually would have been cool to have a quality municipal course built by a local designer that was walkable and playable for $15 million less.  It might even have a second course being played now.


By the way, John Harbottle also designed Palouse Ridge, so he has done two public courses in Washington State in the too 10 public courses.


The contrast between Gold Mountain and Chambers Bay is quite stark.


Charles Lund

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Do the cool people really know affordable golf?
« Reply #32 on: August 27, 2021, 11:56:41 AM »

Gold Mountain Olympic was finished in 1996, so John Harbottle's work was known to people in the area and his family resided in the area.  It actually would have been cool to have a quality municipal course built by a local designer that was walkable and playable for $15 million less.  It might even have a second course being played now.



Charles:


I don't know the source or detail of your numbers, but it is not a fair comparison to put the ACTUAL cost of Chambers Bay and everything that came with it, against the ESTIMATED cost supplied by a designer who didn't get the job.


There is a lot of infrastructure that was part of the development that would not be included in a golf course designer's scope of work or cost estimate.


As an example:  I've heard numbers from $10m to $15m for my work on Memorial Park in Houston.  The difference there is due to things like moving tennis courts to elsewhere in the park so that the practice range could be expanded.  But the $10 million is quite a bit more than most of the new courses I've built, because they wanted to sand cap the course, which I would not have budgeted for in my first pass cost estimate.


Also, Memorial Park already had a clubhouse, maintenance equipment, etc.  Those costs for Chambers Bay would all be on top of the cost of golf course construction.

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do the cool people really know affordable golf?
« Reply #33 on: August 27, 2021, 12:40:06 PM »
...

 It was a park before pouring $22 million to build the course.

...

It would help if you got your facts right. It was operated as a sand and gravel mine until 2003, just before the reclamation into golf course and parkland began.

Since Ferry Point cost 236 million, maybe Pierce County got a deal.
Garland the gravel operation had a land lease, but the county had a site plan developed in the 90's on how to transform the site for public use, there was no golf course in it. It wasn't until early 2000's that a golf course even was mentioned. I don't know the particulars, but know of one friend who is a resident and has never been a fan of the project despite being a very good golfer.
So it was purchased and intended to be public use (some water treatment probably), but largely for public park use.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do the cool people really know affordable golf?
« Reply #34 on: August 27, 2021, 02:06:22 PM »
I put in a proposal for that one and walked the site.  It was a gravel pit at the time of the interviews, maybe just spent.  They may have had some park master plan by who knows who, but it also showed 27 holes plus some public land uses, like trails and parks.  The entire site clearly didn't fit 27 holes, much less 18, plus other uses. 


While the total site was well over 250 acres or so, a huge part of it was the steep banks around the edges, and nothing more than maybe a back tee could be put there.  They also wanted to retain the big concrete plant (?) for character.


I played it later on, as well.  This is just my opinion, but when they felt that being able to play a US Open course would draw golfers, I don't think that came true.  Or at least, you go once, the course beats you up, and you don't go back.  I don't know what the biz study said about a one and done model, but I bet it lacks local public play, even at discounted rates. I know it rains a lot there, and I played in pouring rain, so I even wonder if it counted on those rain days the area is famous for in their biz plan. 


Believe it or not, many golf biz consultants do NOT consider local weather when trying to estimate round.  If it's a six month season, they figure 6 days a week x 24 weeks x 200? or whatever.


Nor for that matter, do all of them make a correlation between course design and the number of rounds played as if any course design could generate premium greens fees and loads of distant rounds.


I know this is OT, but golf business studies aren't to the sophistication level of hotel or other industries.  Not yet, but they are getting better.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do the cool people really know affordable golf?
« Reply #35 on: August 27, 2021, 04:52:19 PM »
The 9-hole "club" where I grew up has 170 members who pay $98.68 monthly.  Carts and cold beer help.  If I lived in the county I'd be content to play there exclusively for the rest of my life.


Maybe I'll get around to profiling the course.


Bogey


 
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do the cool people really know affordable golf?
« Reply #36 on: August 27, 2021, 07:00:59 PM »
The 9-hole "club" where I grew up has 170 members who pay $98.68 monthly.  Carts and cold beer help.  If I lived in the county I'd be content to play there exclusively for the rest of my life.


Maybe I'll get around to profiling the course.


Bogey


Mike-That’s high praise. I would be interested in a tour somewhere down the line.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do the cool people really know affordable golf?
« Reply #37 on: August 27, 2021, 10:32:53 PM »
The 9-hole "club" where I grew up has 170 members who pay $98.68 monthly.  Carts and cold beer help.  If I lived in the county I'd be content to play there exclusively for the rest of my life.


Maybe I'll get around to profiling the course.


Bogey


nice....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do the cool people really know affordable golf?
« Reply #38 on: August 28, 2021, 04:31:43 AM »
Expectations fuelled by vested interests - golfs really just a pretty simple ball, stick, hole game.
atb