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Steve_ Shaffer

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Caves Valley
« on: August 25, 2021, 12:34:11 PM »
Five Things to Know: Caves Valley Golf Club


The FedExCup Playoffs have reached the penultimate week as the top 70 do battle to secure either a place in the TOUR Championship, or a better starting spot at East Lake.

Course familiarity though has been thrown out the window for most as we visit Caves Valley Golf Club just outside Baltimore, Maryland, for the first time. Not since 1962 has a PGA TOUR event been held in Baltimore

https://www.pgatour.com/news/2021/08/24/five-things-to-know-caves-valley-golf-club-course-bmw-championship.html
« Last Edit: August 25, 2021, 12:43:58 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
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"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
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Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Caves Valley
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2021, 12:43:11 PM »
The pros will go very low at Caves. It is built on some nice terrain although some of the greens are pretty benign. It is hilly at the beginning and ending of each nine. Look for them to make a lot of putts. Fazio has returned a number of times to tweak his work. It is a great place to play in the morning, have lunch and play again in the afternoon.n
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Steve Lang

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Re: Caves Valley
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2021, 09:08:35 PM »
 8)  Tommy, I agree with your expectations for the pros to go low at Caves Valley. 


I wandered the course during the second round of the 2002 Sr Open, made most memorable by shaking Arnie's hand or should I say paw, after I said hello as he was walking off a green.  That was very cool.  I remember things being pretty wide open, no real severe topography, some big and beefy fazio green complexes and some length for the time...


I queried a hole steward what it took to join Caves Valley, he told me that it was $150,000 initiation and the course had to be a second club membership... he joked that if you had to ask the monthly dues, it was probably going to be too much  ;D


Yes, would be nice to spend a day there!  Will be interested to see it on TV
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Jerry Kluger

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Re: Caves Valley
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2021, 08:37:34 AM »
Baltimore CC is more my cup of tea - great old Tillinghast course.
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Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Caves Valley
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2021, 03:13:21 PM »
As predicted, they are going low, very low.   The heat is a factor too-  100F on the "feels like" scale.  -8 leads by Sam Burns and he has 4 holes to go.
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"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Carl Rogers

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Re: Caves Valley
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2021, 07:49:50 PM »
I debate with myself whether a "35 under par course" is a real test for the top 70.
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Tom_Doak

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Re: Caves Valley
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2021, 08:27:54 PM »
Quote from: Carl Rogers on August 26, 2021, 07:49:50 PM
I debate with myself whether a "35 under par course" is a real test for the top 70.


Why were you under the impression that they are searching for a real test?  None of the FedEx playoff courses are anything like that.
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Carl Rogers

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Re: Caves Valley
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2021, 09:08:10 PM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on August 26, 2021, 08:27:54 PM
Quote from: Carl Rogers on August 26, 2021, 07:49:50 PM
I debate with myself whether a "35 under par course" is a real test for the top 70.


Why were you under the impression that they are searching for a real test?  None of the FedEx playoff courses are anything like that.


Just dreaming ......
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I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Brad Lawrence

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Re: Caves Valley
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2021, 09:36:02 PM »
Looks like your typical, forgettable, boring modern layout with pretty grass. Yawn.
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Jim Sherma

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Re: Caves Valley
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2021, 11:13:30 PM »
Olympia Fields last year was a test.
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William_G

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Re: Caves Valley
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2021, 11:21:45 PM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on August 26, 2021, 08:27:54 PM
Quote from: Carl Rogers on August 26, 2021, 07:49:50 PM
I debate with myself whether a "35 under par course" is a real test for the top 70.


Why were you under the impression that they are searching for a real test?  None of the FedEx playoff courses are anything like that.
LIFT CLEAN AND CHEAT

WEATHER WEATHER WEATHER (always East, MW, South)


SOFT SOFT SOFT

MONEY MONEY MONEY


 :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(
« Last Edit: August 27, 2021, 08:41:16 AM by William_G »
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It's all about the golf!

Kalen Braley

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Re: Caves Valley
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2021, 03:14:46 PM »
I'm enjoying this venue, helps that I've never seen the course before.

And who shipped in all the fans from Phoenix?  They are really getting into it!  ;)

P.S.  I'm no BDC fan but its nice to see him playing well and also staying relaxed and interacting with the fans in a positive way...
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Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Caves Valley
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2021, 06:00:10 PM »
Caves was built for business people to entertain clients. It does that well. The. course won’t embarrass people and the greens won’t make them look foolish. The campus is just terrific. The course is always in good shape and is built on nice terrain. I know the movers and shakers wanted some top amateur or senior events but it wasn’t really built for the TOUR.
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Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Steve Kline

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Re: Caves Valley
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2021, 08:05:11 AM »
Quote from: Carl Rogers on August 26, 2021, 07:49:50 PM
I debate with myself whether a "35 under par course" is a real test for the top 70.


Problem solved if we just admit there is no such thing as par 5 for the modern tour pro. The lead under three rounds would be just -10.


However, it is an entertainment product. So, the only thing that matters is if the tournament is entertaining. The third round was pretty entertaining with the lead switching back and forth. And, while I'm no BDC fan, I find him the most entertaining to watch because you have no idea what is going to happen.
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Cliff Hamm

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Re: Caves Valley
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2021, 06:01:19 PM »
Great tournament. It raises the question – do relatively flat greens lead to a more exciting tournament than a course with very undulating greens?
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Pete_Pittock

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Re: Caves Valley
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2021, 07:24:24 PM »
I don't know.  Bunkering seems more bland than last week and i haven't seen an 1/2 or full shot "penalty" from being in the wrong part of one.


What I do know is if BAD had manned up and shot 59 on Friday we likely would not be watching a fascinating playoff to see who starts with a 3 stroke advantage over the other next Thursday.
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Anthony_Nysse

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Re: Caves Valley
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2021, 08:57:40 AM »
Quote from: Pete_Pittock on August 29, 2021, 07:24:24 PM
I don't know.  Bunkering seems more bland than last week and i haven't seen an 1/2 or full shot "penalty" from being in the wrong part of one.


What I do know is if BAD had manned up and shot 59 on Friday we likely would not be watching a fascinating playoff to see who starts with a 3 stroke advantage over the other next Thursday.


Is it me, or does every Fazio course that has been renovated recently have the same style bunkering? Similar to bowls with some concave contouring in them. Seems like all the creativity is gone. They all imitate ANGC; Coral Creek, Emerald Dunes, Thornblade, Caves, Pablo Creek, Mirasol, River Oaks, to name a few.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2021, 10:00:16 AM by Anthony_Nysse »
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Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Tim Gavrich

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Re: Caves Valley
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2021, 10:15:10 AM »
Quote from: Anthony_Nysse on August 30, 2021, 08:57:40 AM
Quote from: Pete_Pittock on August 29, 2021, 07:24:24 PM
I don't know.  Bunkering seems more bland than last week and i haven't seen an 1/2 or full shot "penalty" from being in the wrong part of one.


What I do know is if BAD had manned up and shot 59 on Friday we likely would not be watching a fascinating playoff to see who starts with a 3 stroke advantage over the other next Thursday.


Is it me, or does every Fazio course that has been renovated recently have the same style bunkering? Similar to bowls with some concave contouring in them. Seems like all the creativity is gone. They all imitate ANGC; Coral Creek, Emerald Dunes, Thornblade, Caves, Pablo Creek, Mirasol, River Oaks to name a few.


I've noticed this, too. The photos I've seen of Black Diamond Ranch - Quarry since its renovation worry me a bit. I loved it when I played it back in 2016 in large part because like the general shaping, the bunkering was a little more gnarly and expressive than I've seen at more modern Fazio courses. I suspect Mike Strantz's involvement had something to do with it.


Now it looks like it's full of the standard-shaped, white-sand bunkers we're seeing elsewhere. I think that style works very well at Sea Island Seaside and probably Floridian and some others, but at a unique site like BDR?


Here are Google Earth aerials pre- and post-renovation. I know which one I prefer.





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MCirba

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Re: Caves Valley
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2021, 10:46:50 AM »
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz......
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Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Caves Valley
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2021, 11:21:33 AM »
I'm not sure the bunkering at Black Diamond ever really qualified as gnarly. I like the bunker on the right of the old picture because it saved you from hitting the shot into the big ravine. I think i'd prefer no bunkers left of the green.
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Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

MCirba

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Re: Caves Valley
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2021, 01:53:04 PM »
Cantlay and BD shot under par on nearly 4 holes of every 10.


Why don't the USGA/PGA make it really, really exciting and see if we can get that number over 50%?   Perhaps 75% for run of the mill smaller city tournies?  They can make the greens even flatter and faster and further encourage rowdy behavior, fan/player "interaction", and other entertaining stimuli much like professional wrestling.  I smell pay-for-view.
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"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

JESII

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Re: Caves Valley
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2021, 02:08:29 PM »
They are certainly putting traditional golf viewers on the sidelines with the evolving telecasts…
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cary lichtenstein

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Re: Caves Valley
« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2021, 03:21:43 PM »
if Bryson could only learn how to chip, he would have won going away.
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Ryan Hillenbrand

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Re: Caves Valley
« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2021, 05:20:09 PM »
I remember watching the senior event years ago and thinking it looked like a really interesting course. Now its hard to say with the ridiculous size and amounts of grandstands. I'm sure they raised a ton of money for the Western Golf Association and the casual golf fan doesn't care, but its practically like watching a round played at Top Golf
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Joe Hancock

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Re: Caves Valley
« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2021, 05:30:09 PM »
I found it absolutely captivating to not only see how many beats per minute those athletes were in control of, but also the fine analysis of the biometrics that are so relevant to my game…..I can’t wait to put my rangefinder down to check my BPM before I hit each shot……breathe…..breathe……
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