News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.


rgkeller

Re:What Should be the Fate of the Pond on the Sixteenth at Garden City?
« Reply #50 on: November 20, 2003, 09:54:51 AM »
I do not think, have never stated and have no reason to believe that the orginal bunker was "bad."

I do believe that the current pond is "good" and offers a more penal hazard than would a bunker.

The history of that spot suggests to me that any attempt to restore the bunker would fail because of the water problem in that area. I was told that the bunker complex there was redone because it was not maintainable. I know that some years past between the reconstruction of the bunkers on that side and the construction of the pond.

I can think of ten bunkers at GCGC that have been added in the past twenty five years - bunkers that neither Travis nor Emmet saw fit to construct and that have nothing to do with length issues.

The egregious example of a hole that does not belong at Garden City is the twelfth. Restore that hole to the 1936 condition. But don't wimp out because of maintenance issues.

rgkeller

Re:What Should be the Fate of the Pond on the Sixteenth at Garden City?
« Reply #51 on: November 20, 2003, 09:59:22 AM »
"I don't think you have to tear out the irrigation system.  There is a simpler and far less costly answer -- just don't use the sucker unless there's a drought going on!!"

Now isn't that a great idea.

ian

Re:What Should be the Fate of the Pond on the Sixteenth at Garden City?
« Reply #52 on: November 20, 2003, 10:01:06 AM »
I'm abviously a huge Travis fan, possibly the only person on the site who is a Travis Society member too.

Here is my problem with this whole question. I don't have any experience with the hole other than photos. I don't have any of the old drawings or photos. I don't know what the hole used to look like 20 years ago, without the pond. Pat does, but likely nobody else her does, how do we discuss this with Pat. Was it already a bog? I don't know, but I can't offer an opinion without that knowledge firsthand (my definition of bog is likely different from yours).

Rg,

I agree with going back to 1936 because you have the evidence, but as Pat himself stated you keep new back tees because all clubs evolve with improvement in play. To Pat my question is, is that pond also an evolution that had to take place? Tree removal, restoring bunkers and bunker lines, restoring a green site, the lost strategic intent of a designer; I personally think that 1936 is your basis. Your irrigation point, while I appreciate what your saying, is sort of silly.

Pat,

Not all evolution is bad. Sometimes a bunker face is better with time, ie. Merion's white faces. I look at Pine Valley and the evolution of the naturalized areas. I have left a couple of bunkers at St. Georges in thier "new" configuration because they are really cool. You know how the additional moves happened, the faces caved in and were repaired, they look better now, why go back? Everyone had asumed they were pristine till we found early early photos. Why does that have to change?

I guess what I'm asking you is, whether the pond is origional or nor, is the hole better now with the pond?

rgkeller

Re:What Should be the Fate of the Pond on the Sixteenth at Garden City?
« Reply #53 on: November 20, 2003, 10:06:56 AM »
"I guess what I'm asking you is, whether the pond is origional or nor, is the hole better now with the pond?"

I wondered if anyone was going to raise this question.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:What Should be the Fate of the Pond on the Sixteenth at Garden City?
« Reply #54 on: November 20, 2003, 10:45:57 AM »
Tom Doak,
I stayed entirely out of this discussion because I am the consultant to the club, and I don't believe the club wants its business debated in this forum.  Patrick Mucci obviously disagrees.

How do you have the balls to posture that I brought this public ??

Go back and take a look at who began this thread.

rgkeller a member at GCGC, NOT ME

An appology is in order, and you need to amend you post to properly reflect the name of the individual who brought this public.

rgkeller

Re:What Should be the Fate of the Pond on the Sixteenth at Garden City?
« Reply #55 on: November 20, 2003, 10:53:00 AM »
"I'm looking for a presumption against activism."

Well, I'll just mark you down as one of the Apostles.

TEPaul

Re:What Should be the Fate of the Pond on the Sixteenth at Garden City?
« Reply #56 on: November 20, 2003, 11:02:22 AM »
It's funny to me listening to all this discussion about what's right for the 16th hole at GCGC--whether the recent pond should stay or whether the original bunker that was in its place should be restored. It may be fun and interesting to speculate and assume things but if the club is really interested in doing more than speculating they've got to find ways to know first. After they have the proper info to do more than assume things they can then go ahead and decide whether it's of value and the interest within the club is there to go ahead and make a change--restoration or not.

Pat said this:

"I maintain that it was the irrigation system that caused the problem in the first place.
It seems strange that at the begining and for a great many years no problem existed.  Irrigation is put in, and suddenly there's a problem."

Well, I'll tell you if I was a member at GCGC and particularly if I was somebody in a position to make a decision on this issue one way or the other and whether or not I thought a bunker or a pond was the right thing to the left of #16, the very first thing I'd do is to ask Pat Mucci or anyone else who had information on this area to not just come in with assumptions but to attempt to prove it and come up with a good conclusion about that area in any point in time!

A lot of things go awry in restorations or anything else to do with making changes to golf courses or changes back to the way things may have been because all they go on are assumptions. That's not good enough.

Unless you can come to a fairly accurate conclusion of what went on in that area at any time and why you shouldn't rush into the process of change even if it is original restoration.

Find out first if that area had a wetness problem with those original bunkers and what caused it--whether it was just a problematic area on the property from way back when or whether it was a modern irrigation system that caused it.

Unless you get real answers to those questions first you're putting the club in the position of potentially making a mistake and costing themselves more time and money to correct again.


TEPaul

Re:What Should be the Fate of the Pond on the Sixteenth at Garden City?
« Reply #57 on: November 20, 2003, 11:19:25 AM »
Shivas:

If something makes for a better hole in the opinions of a membership of a golf club then that's what will be and what will happen.

One of the most interesting, actually ridiculous and laughable presumptions on this website is the contention that something is better for a golf club and golf course and should be done even though the membership may not feel that way.

It's fun to speculate and discuss on this website what may be best for a golf course and what may not but all it is is idle discussion. If any of us or anybody else actually wants to do something about it then they have to find a way to convince that membership or at least those there that can effect decisions.

I believe a guy like Tom MacWood can be an excellent researcher but he's said over and over that he has no interest in a club's membership or in its internal politics. If that is so the very best Tom MacWood could ever hope to do is to get information he has to someone who has the ability to go to that membership or those that control the club and convince them of the reasons to do what he may believe is right.

Without that  nothing will ever happen and all this just remains idle discussion.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What Should be the Fate of the Pond on the Sixteenth at Garden City?
« Reply #58 on: November 20, 2003, 11:23:18 AM »
rgkeller -

It was Ross (I think) who said that irrigation should not be used to keep grass green. It should be used only to keep grass alive.

That was Shivas's point. One I agree with, btw.

Bob


rgkeller

Re:What Should be the Fate of the Pond on the Sixteenth at Garden City?
« Reply #59 on: November 20, 2003, 11:30:12 AM »
rgkeller -

It was Ross (I think) who said that irrigation should not be used to keep grass green. It should be used only to keep grass alive.

That was Shivas's point. One I agree with, btw.

Bob



No argument from me. But I do believethat the only way to stop overwatering at certain courses is to disable the system.

Kelly_Blake_Moran

Re:What Should be the Fate of the Pond on the Sixteenth at Garden City?
« Reply #60 on: November 20, 2003, 11:39:55 AM »
shivas,

rather than an apostle you might be more of a judge.  the last line of judges basically says that every man did as they pleased and lived by their own rules.  the judges really were moreof a precusor to kings and it was their duty to remind the people of God's rules, that living by your own rules was not acceptable.  so, to really stretch the analogy, the club members have lost sight of the original, and are now living by their own tastes and whims, despite the adnomitions of the judges.  geoffrey childs and bahto fit nicely in the judges mold.

incidently, off topic but enjoy the following link everyone.  i hope redanman finds this amusing:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/20/international/europe/20PTEX.html?pagewanted=print&position=

Patrick_Mucci

Re:What Should be the Fate of the Pond on the Sixteenth at Garden City?
« Reply #61 on: November 20, 2003, 01:34:16 PM »
TEPaul,
If something makes for a better hole in the opinions of a membership of a golf club then that's what will be and what will happen.

One of the most interesting, actually ridiculous and laughable presumptions on this website is the contention that something is better for a golf club and golf course and should be done even though the membership may not feel that way.

In light of your above statement, do you think that MERION did everything right with respect to their bunker project ???

From a Design, Construction and Maintainance aspect ?

TEPaul

Re:What Should be the Fate of the Pond on the Sixteenth at Garden City?
« Reply #62 on: November 20, 2003, 04:06:17 PM »
Pat:

No, for the umpteenth time I personally don't feel that Merion did everything right with their bunker project and you know that. I think in their larger restoration effort that's been going on now, according to the club, for about 12-13 years that they've done an awful lot right--that they've done a very good job and are continuing to. But again, as I've said so many times before, and said to some there too that on their bunker restoration project I always thought the best thing to do would've been to completely redo the drainage and the sanding in all their bunkers and to simply fix their bunker surrounds instead of taking them completely apart and starting over again from ground up.

All I said in the post above is that again all clubs should do their very best first on research and not take off down a path based on easy assumptions. I also said that too many on this site slam clubs for making what they, the people on this site, think are incorrect decisions when so many on this site do not have a complete understanding of either the architecture of many courses or it's history or evolution. And furthermore so many on this site have either no understanding of the membership of particular golf clubs or care to have an understanding of those memberhips. It just makes no sense to me to see someone on here who doesn't know a club recommending that a club do something they think is the right thing to do when they admit they have no interest in what the memberhip thinks.

I also think that it is possible to make some of these old courses better than they may have ever been. Jim Finegan believes the same thing and said so many years ago. But the people in those clubs must do the things necessary to have a clear understanding of their course, its history, its evolution, how things that have happened in golf can be accomodated within that original design framework.

I think I depart from you on this--in that it seems like you believe that all clubs must strictly restore or they'll make a mistake somehow and make a mess of things. You seem to suggest that if a club does anything other than strictly restore they'll inevitably make a mistake somehow. I don't believe that--I do not believe that's inevitable. I guess I just have more faith that people can do what's prudent and benefical and also avoid making mistakes and messing up their course.

TEPaul

Re:What Should be the Fate of the Pond on the Sixteenth at Garden City?
« Reply #63 on: November 20, 2003, 05:54:53 PM »
rgkeller said;

"What amuses me is the Apostles' refusal to admit that irrigation, maintenance standards and equipment and breakthroughs in agronomy have done more to change the playing characteristics of the "Classic" course than the addition or subtraction of a bunker or two.

rg:

Where or when did any of these so-called 'Apostles' say that?

"More classic courses have been ruined by course maintenance and agronomy than by conscious changes by green committees."

Has someone on here claimed otherwise? If so I must have missed it. How do you feel about the maintenance and agronomy of GCGC? Is it too soft for your liking? Would you like to see the course speeded up "through the green" by making the course firmer? Would you like to see the greens a little firmer? I understand your subsurface conditions are well drainng and conducive to that so it wouldn't be at all difficult to do.

rgkeller

Re:What Should be the Fate of the Pond on the Sixteenth at Garden City?
« Reply #64 on: November 20, 2003, 06:00:54 PM »
"Would you like to see the course speeded up "through the green" by making the course firmer? Would you like to see the greens a little firmer? I understand your subsurface conditions are well drainng and conducive to that so it wouldn't be at all difficult to do."

I pray for firmer conditions at GCGC every night before I close my eyes in sleep.

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What Should be the Fate of the Pond on the Sixteenth at Garden City?
« Reply #65 on: November 20, 2003, 06:09:42 PM »
TomP -
Where were you when Forrest and I (with support from Rich) were making the same assertion on the Del Paso thread last week?

There is a strict school of restoration, which finds in this chat room, a number of adherents, that discounts every possible consideration except the original architect's work, despite any consensus wishes of the membership. Often times, as the Del Paso thread regrettably illustrated, these ideas are advanced in a total vacuum of knowledge or familiarity with either the club or the course. What's more, its often done in an insulting way as if they are committing some crime by not adhering to criteria set out by the strict school. Almost as if they need approval from this band of freaks.

The strict school of restoration, to paraphrase what somebody once said about those who supported supply side economics, is a view popularized by cranks and charlatans.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2003, 06:12:50 PM by SPDB »

TEPaul

Re:What Should be the Fate of the Pond on the Sixteenth at Garden City?
« Reply #66 on: November 20, 2003, 06:50:36 PM »
Sean:

Where was I during the Del Paso thread last week? You got me but I must have been somewhere. I never read a word of that thread that I can recall, never even clicked on it that I can remember as I don't know one damn thing about Del Paso, never heard of it, don't know where it is etc. If I did open that thread and posted anything on it it must have been just another one of my totally inane posts because I can't remember a thing.

But if I happened to agree with you guys somehow or you all with me then all I can say is nice going all around!

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What Should be the Fate of the Pond on the Sixteenth at Garden City?
« Reply #67 on: November 20, 2003, 06:56:23 PM »
Sean, Sean, Sean... I realize this is in vain, since your agreement with Rich and Forrest shows we've already lost you to the dark side, but I will try anyway to bring you back. :)

First of all, I don't think there is anyone on this side who is for restoration as strict as you, Forrest or Rich (henceforth referred to as the Evil Axis, or EA :) :)) imply. I don't think even Tommy or Tom M, probably the two strongest proponents of restoration, have stated that there must be a slavish devotion to each and every blade of grass returning to its rightful place, as it were.

Second, I think that most of us on the pro-restoration side recognize the inherent difficulties in practicing "true" restoration, if there is such a thing. What most have called for is that the "restoring" architect do as much research as possible and attempt to remove his ego from the process as much as possible. I like to look to similar practices in analogous industries for examples. There are people that specialize in restoring historically valuable art, for instance. I don't think most would view their work as a success if they were modernizing features on the artwork.

Now I know the EA is going to jump in at this point and (rightfully) state that a golf course is a natural evolving entity and that it is unrealistic to ignore the changing demands and nature of the game. These are certainly valid and strong points, but they are also ones which are not ignored by the good guys. I think most of us (the good guys, that is) feel that not enough thought is being put into changes made, and that too often the changes made in fact achieve the exact opposite of their intent. Furthermore, if they are not corrected relatively quickly, they can themselves become part of the whole "what and when do you restore to" equation. I think us good guys tend to think most of these changes are simply made for reasons of difficulty, and frankly are usually worthless.

Third, I think the EA loves to try to paint the good guys as a bunch of ivory tower idealists who refuse to accept the real world. I haven't met the other good guys in person yet, but I would say that likely nothing could be further from the truth. We simply care about the historical nature of the art involved and feel that, on balance, far more harm than good has been done under the guise of "improving" golf courses.

We like to ask simple questions that are ridiculed by others (questions which to my mind remain unanswered) like:

- Why can't "restoration architects" (the whipping boys, anyway) seem to make bunkers or holes that fit in with the rest of the course? Is their intent mailicious, or simply mistaken?

- Why do people seem obsessed with score or difficulty being the determining factor of a courses greatness? Why can't members appreciate what they have? How many members are really tearing up their home courses? Does it really matter what Tiger shoots? Do they have a healthy enough ego to see that it doesn't? Some of the old guys (Jones & Mackenzie spring to mind) seemed to feel a golf course should yield low scores if played well. Food for thought for today's leaders.

Fourth, I don't think any of us feel all golf courses are above any sort of remodeling. Where we seem to differ is in our regard for special older courses. Even someone like Tom MacWood, who has done the research to back up his claims, has said a course like Medinah might benefit from someone like Rees injecting a certainly personality it might be lacking. Again, we differ from the EA in that we don't think personality should always be injected into a course.

Fifth, most of us (good guys) don't take statements like "building in the spirit of" well - I'd say history is on our side for this one, but there certainly are exceptions.

Sixth, we view this board as an opportunity to exchange ideas. I don't think any of us feel that we have a right to inject or enforce our own beliefs into a private club, but maybe we just hope that pointing out that sometimes the emperor indeed wears no clothes may help folks out. Admittedly, on this point some of us can come across too strong, but others make completely reasonable, rational comments, only to have them shouted down by others. I guess it's all in your view of the particulars.

I need to pause now because my thoughts are becoming more and more disjointed.

I will conclude by saying that most of the good guys :) feel that each situation is different and must be examined as such. It is the EA that has attempted to portray us as overly zealous in an attempt to discredit our opinions (kind of like I'm doing to the EA in this post, in an attempt to inject a little levity into the situation).

I suspect all of us could sit down over a beer or three and we'd probably find that we aren't that far apart. At least, I hope so. If nothing else, I hope we'd respect each others opinions and their right to them.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What Should be the Fate of the Pond on the Sixteenth at Garden City?
« Reply #68 on: November 20, 2003, 07:00:11 PM »

I don't know one damn thing about Del Paso, never heard of it, don't know where it is etc.

Tom -

Neither did a majority of the people participating in the thread. But rest assured, that didn't keep each of them from expounding at great length about what the club should do with its course.  ??? ;D

ForkaB

Re:What Should be the Fate of the Pond on the Sixteenth at Garden City?
« Reply #69 on: November 20, 2003, 07:14:08 PM »
Tom

You should go read that Del Paso thread if only to see the EXACT MOMENT when Pat Mucci started agreeing with Tom MacWood.   It is not a pretty sight, but we at the Evil Axis (tm) wish Pat all the best in his new life, and would like to let him know that his Cabana at the EA Temple of Doom is waiting for him if and when he comes to his senses.

PS--the answer to the central question of this thread can be easily resolved.  Did or did not the Emperor hit his ball into the pond?  If so, it stays.  If he stayed dry, hasta la vista agua!
« Last Edit: November 20, 2003, 07:29:34 PM by Rich Goodale »

ian

Re:What Should be the Fate of the Pond on the Sixteenth at Garden City?
« Reply #70 on: November 20, 2003, 07:22:57 PM »
I could read this thread all day, I'm still laughing even 5 minutes later. EA ;D ha ha ha

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What Should be the Fate of the Pond on the Sixteenth at Garden City?
« Reply #71 on: November 20, 2003, 07:24:28 PM »
George,
Like many of your brethren, you've failed by taking such a binary approach. I think you will find that the eminent triumvirate was incorporated for the sole purpose of the Del Paso thread. EA (or Elegant Analysis) merely pointed out that the cult of restoration had run its mission statement to the absurd conclusion, resulting in ad hominem attacks on 1) somebody who was looking for resources, and 2) somebody who was unfamiliar with the acceptable nomenclature of the Strict School (hereinafter, appropriately, "SS").

I'm of the mind that GCA, with its depth of knowledge, can be a very worthwhile resource for a club that is earnestly looking to restore its course to its original grandeur, relatively speaking. Yet here we have the perfect example in the Del Paso thread of the strong arm tactics of the SS. Mindy is looking for resources about Fowler, but, in the collective mind of the SS, maybe she'll accept a surgical cross-examination, forcing her to defend her very existence on the green committee?

As I mentioned to you privately, Mindy's subsequent disappearance fairly validates my point about the SS approach. A chance to help someone out and exhibit the wonderful resources GCA can bring to bear went by the board.

I can't write on this anymore, although I suspect I probably will.  

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What Should be the Fate of the Pond on the Sixteenth at Garden City?
« Reply #72 on: November 20, 2003, 07:32:07 PM »
Rich -

Its true, politics does make strange bedfellows.

T_MacWood

Re:What Should be the Fate of the Pond on the Sixteenth at Garden City?
« Reply #73 on: November 20, 2003, 07:44:57 PM »
Sean
You are really on a roll.

"Neither did a majority of the people participating in the thread. But rest assured, that didn't keep each of them from expounding at great length about what the club should do with its course."

Did anyone expound more than you on that thread?  

"There is a strict school of restoration, which finds in this chat room, a number of adherents, that discounts every possible consideration except the original architect's work, despite any consensus wishes of the membership."

This is site is devoted to architecture...no? If you want to talk about the wishes of membership, go ahead...it doesn't bother me. If it is as interesting as I think it might be perhaps we could start new site GolfClubMembership.com and really explore it.

"Often times, as the Del Paso thread regrettably illustrated, these ideas are advanced in a total vacuum of knowledge or familiarity with either the club or the course."

What ideas? There was a member or two members expressing their point of views. Weren't there were more questions asked than ideas advanced? I don't recall any ideas being explored in great deal...if there were who cares, you or anyone who disagrees with these ideas are free to respond.

"What's more, its often done in an insulting way as if they are committing some crime by not adhering to criteria set out by the strict school. Almost as if they need approval from this band of freaks."

I didn't pick on the insults, but then again I didn't read half the posts.

"The strict school of restoration, to paraphrase what somebody once said about those who supported supply side economics, is a view popularized by cranks and charlatans."

Please explain what the "strict school of restoration" is and who are the band of freaks?
« Last Edit: November 20, 2003, 10:33:21 PM by Tom MacWood »

T_MacWood

Re:What Should be the Fate of the Pond on the Sixteenth at Garden City?
« Reply #74 on: November 21, 2003, 06:49:07 AM »
Sean
"As I mentioned to you privately, Mindy's subsequent disappearance fairly validates my point about the SS approach. A chance to help someone out and exhibit the wonderful resources GCA can bring to bear went by the board."

Interesting conjecture....didn't you say something about a total vacuum of knowledge?


Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back