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jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing Up The Wrong Fairways at Oakmont
« Reply #75 on: August 15, 2021, 11:33:54 PM »
When I have played Oakmont there is no way they stimp at 17. They are fast but so are 1000 other places. Used to be they were faster than other places, but that ship sailed. Stump readings are about as accurate as claimed carry distances on web sites.


exactly-so many other places are now fast.
Can't be any faster than barely playable.
But that doesn't mean their greens can't be diabolically /crazy/never stop rolling fast.
Just not 17.
Any green that was playable at 17 would be boringly flat.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jeff Schley

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Re: Playing Up The Wrong Fairways at Oakmont
« Reply #76 on: August 16, 2021, 01:24:30 AM »
I played Oakmont in early July again and while yes very fast greens, our host said they don't post stimp speeds. He estimated they were 12-13. As others have said, with slope in the greens you can't have the speed close to 17 and mark your ball on the putting surface with many of their slopes. Having greens with slope and character should be welcomed, not judged by how fast they stimp.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing Up The Wrong Fairways at Oakmont
« Reply #77 on: August 16, 2021, 12:27:49 PM »
Tom,
You yourself said that part of the problem is a result of the last renovation where they moved bunkers and tightened up landing areas.  As such why would you be against another renovation to maybe correct things?  I believe that is why they are talking to Gil. 


Like it or not, courses cycle through all these trends.  It is the nature of the game/industry. 

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing Up The Wrong Fairways at Oakmont
« Reply #78 on: August 17, 2021, 01:29:00 AM »
Did anyone do this in the last two US Opens there? If not, why not?


Not to just quote myself, but this seems like a significant question.

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing Up The Wrong Fairways at Oakmont
« Reply #79 on: August 17, 2021, 07:15:40 AM »
Man.


Caught up on the last 2 pages of this thread and some of the comments and posts are LOL funny.


Hit ball. Find ball. Hit ball again.


Don’t put anyone in danger while doing it.


Seems fairly easy.


WTF is a “wrong fairway?!” The only thing labeled on the golf course is the tee and the hole.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

mike_malone

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Re: Playing Up The Wrong Fairways at Oakmont
« Reply #80 on: August 17, 2021, 07:50:53 AM »
Man.


Caught up on the last 2 pages of this thread and some of the comments and posts are LOL funny.


Hit ball. Find ball. Hit ball again.


Don’t put anyone in danger while doing it.


Seems fairly easy.


WTF is a “wrong fairway?!” The only thing labeled on the golf course is the tee and the hole.


+1 ( except for the cursing)
AKA Mayday

Jon Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing Up The Wrong Fairways at Oakmont
« Reply #81 on: August 17, 2021, 07:56:34 AM »
When I have played Oakmont there is no way they stimp at 17. They are fast but so are 1000 other places. Used to be they were faster than other places, but that ship sailed. Stump readings are about as accurate as claimed carry distances on web sites.
My favorite is the guy that tells me they hit their three wood 280. I just laugh at them. That being said, I’ll trust the people I know directly as I don’t know them to be liars as opposed to the internet people I don’t. I’ve seen the course I caddy at roll well north of 13 so I can easily imagine that course being a few feet faster. Like all fast greens there are pinnable spots (sp?).
This person has played more courses than most anyone I know and I don’t know them to lie.
https://twitter.com/shistorians/status/1312160849147039744?s=21


JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing Up The Wrong Fairways at Oakmont
« Reply #82 on: August 17, 2021, 08:19:01 AM »
I am skeptical that Oakmont has any area on their greens that could actually be measured to "prove" a 14'+ stimp reading.




As to the thread topic; I fall firmly in the camp of play the hole as you prefer without putting anyone at risk. This will absolutely be a major topic in Far Hills between now and their next US Open...2025? How can you tell an entitled BDC he cannot choose a path he has calculated to be 0.043 strokes easier for him?

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing Up The Wrong Fairways at Oakmont
« Reply #83 on: August 17, 2021, 08:33:43 AM »
When I have played Oakmont there is no way they stimp at 17. They are fast but so are 1000 other places. Used to be they were faster than other places, but that ship sailed. Stump readings are about as accurate as claimed carry distances on web sites.
My favorite is the guy that tells me they hit their three wood 280. I just laugh at them. That being said, I’ll trust the people I know directly as I don’t know them to be liars as opposed to the internet people I don’t. I’ve seen the course I caddy at roll well north of 13 so I can easily imagine that course being a few feet faster. Like all fast greens there are pinnable spots (sp?).
This person has played more courses than most anyone I know and I don’t know them to lie.
https://twitter.com/shistorians/status/1312160849147039744?s=21


Jon,
I'm very familiar with fast greens, and like you regularly see 13, sometimes more.
But there is a quantum leap to a "few feet more" or the 17.5 being claimed in your linked post.
I'm confident he's not lying, I'm confident the greens were(and are) crazy fast, with the ball seemingly rolling forever.
I juts don't think he's getting accurate information,as a ball simply won't come to rest at that speed on any reasonable slope, especially on a course with such undulating greens as Oakmont.


I do know that discussing greens at 17.5(or even 15), and applauding it, is an awful thing for golf, as it normalizes such absurd speeds, and belittles 11 which is lightning on a golden age green with any interesting tilt or slope in or near pinnable areas.

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing Up The Wrong Fairways at Oakmont
« Reply #84 on: August 17, 2021, 09:00:44 AM »
When I have played Oakmont there is no way they stimp at 17. They are fast but so are 1000 other places. Used to be they were faster than other places, but that ship sailed. Stump readings are about as accurate as claimed carry distances on web sites.
My favorite is the guy that tells me they hit their three wood 280. I just laugh at them. That being said, I’ll trust the people I know directly as I don’t know them to be liars as opposed to the internet people I don’t. I’ve seen the course I caddy at roll well north of 13 so I can easily imagine that course being a few feet faster. Like all fast greens there are pinnable spots (sp?).
This person has played more courses than most anyone I know and I don’t know them to lie.
https://twitter.com/shistorians/status/1312160849147039744?s=21


Jon,
I'm very familiar with fast greens, and like you regularly see 13, sometimes more.
But there is a quantum leap to a "few feet more" or the 17.5 being claimed in your linked post.
I'm confident he's not lying, I'm confident the greens were(and are) crazy fast, with the ball seemingly rolling forever.
I juts don't think he's getting accurate information,as a ball simply won't come to rest at that speed on any reasonable slope, especially on a course with such undulating greens as Oakmont.


I do know that discussing greens at 17.5(or even 15), and applauding it, is an awful thing for golf, as it normalizes such absurd speeds, and belittles 11 which is lightning on a golden age green with any interesting tilt or slope in or near pinnable areas.


Anything north of 11 at Yale and your scorecard looks like hieroglyphics.

Jon Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing Up The Wrong Fairways at Oakmont
« Reply #85 on: August 17, 2021, 09:19:21 PM »
When I have played Oakmont there is no way they stimp at 17. They are fast but so are 1000 other places. Used to be they were faster than other places, but that ship sailed. Stump readings are about as accurate as claimed carry distances on web sites.
My favorite is the guy that tells me they hit their three wood 280. I just laugh at them. That being said, I’ll trust the people I know directly as I don’t know them to be liars as opposed to the internet people I don’t. I’ve seen the course I caddy at roll well north of 13 so I can easily imagine that course being a few feet faster. Like all fast greens there are pinnable spots (sp?).
This person has played more courses than most anyone I know and I don’t know them to lie.
https://twitter.com/shistorians/status/1312160849147039744?s=21


Jon,
I'm very familiar with fast greens, and like you regularly see 13, sometimes more.
But there is a quantum leap to a "few feet more" or the 17.5 being claimed in your linked post.
I'm confident he's not lying, I'm confident the greens were(and are) crazy fast, with the ball seemingly rolling forever.
I juts don't think he's getting accurate information,as a ball simply won't come to rest at that speed on any reasonable slope, especially on a course with such undulating greens as Oakmont.


I do know that discussing greens at 17.5(or even 15), and applauding it, is an awful thing for golf, as it normalizes such absurd speeds, and belittles 11 which is lightning on a golden age green with any interesting tilt or slope in or near pinnable areas.
Jeff,
Not arguing the merit of fast vs slow or too fast. I can tell you I have the most fun on ours when they’re as fast as you can get them. Tends to keep me engaged and thinking. The faster they are, the better I seem to read them. I love seeing someone hit it to a spot and I know in the back of mind they need to start praying to get it down in two. Never played oakmont although I figure eventually I’ll make my way out there. If I do, I’ll report back.
Played Pasa and they weren’t blazing but plenty fast, caddied at Augusta and saw them brushing them up with a broom before cutting them and the ball bouncing in the air with a wedge approach prior to the tourney, the new Bermuda greens here during the summer in VA are stupid fast but they’re so unimaginative it doesn’t really matter. I can see both sides of it. As of now, I’ll trust the devil I know as opposed to the angels I don’t. Certainly not disputing anyone’s claim and I’ll believe one or the other when I see them for myself.

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing Up The Wrong Fairways at Oakmont
« Reply #86 on: August 19, 2021, 11:26:12 PM »
PGA Tour greens average about 11. Very, very few (Muirfield Village, Augusta National sometimes) get to 12.5.

You will almost never get 13 at the pro level. You basically never see 14.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing Up The Wrong Fairways at Oakmont
« Reply #87 on: August 20, 2021, 07:29:46 AM »
Not to knock or discredit any of the greenspeeds being thrown around but comparing stimpmeter readings from course to course is pointless. I can have two people stimp the exact same spot and get two different measurements and that's not even throwing in any other variables.


No one will say a green with a stimp reading of 8ft is fast (no matter the slopes) or one with a reading of 14 is slow, but ultimately the numbers are arbitrary. It is a useful tool when used for it's original intent ie to check for consistency from green to green on the same course with the same user, but that's it.


Golf construction & maintenance are like creating a masterpiece; Da Vinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa's eyes first..... You start with the backdrop, layer on the detail and fine tune the finished product into a masterpiece

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing Up The Wrong Fairways at Oakmont
« Reply #88 on: August 20, 2021, 10:14:22 AM »
Not to knock or discredit any of the greenspeeds being thrown around but comparing stimpmeter readings from course to course is pointless. I can have two people stimp the exact same spot and get two different measurements and that's not even throwing in any other variables.


No one will say a green with a stimp reading of 8ft is fast (no matter the slopes) or one with a reading of 14 is slow, but ultimately the numbers are arbitrary. It is a useful tool when used for it's original intent ie to check for consistency from green to green on the same course with the same user, but that's it.





All of this.


Nobody pays attention to the very basic statistics concept of “zero.”
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing Up The Wrong Fairways at Oakmont
« Reply #89 on: August 20, 2021, 10:23:03 AM »
Not to knock or discredit any of the greenspeeds being thrown around but comparing stimpmeter readings from course to course is pointless. I can have two people stimp the exact same spot and get two different measurements and that's not even throwing in any other variables.


No one will say a green with a stimp reading of 8ft is fast (no matter the slopes) or one with a reading of 14 is slow, but ultimately the numbers are arbitrary. It is a useful tool when used for it's original intent ie to check for consistency from green to green on the same course with the same user, but that's it.





+1 great post


I will quibble that when I went to Long Cove in 1988, their greens which stimped 8 at the time, were the fastest I'd ever played(so they were fast THEN), BECAUSE of the slopes there were some crazy difficult putts, and that included Augusta(where I played in 1978 on freshly overseeded rye greens running about 6 in November)


I will also disagree in that a favorite course of mine that generally runs about 6, with huge slope and tilt,(5-7 degrees in places) amped their greens to 8 one season(just before losing them:) ) and they were crazy fast downhill, with the ball merely trickling until it left the green-none of the good pins were useable.

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Kalen Braley

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Re: Playing Up The Wrong Fairways at Oakmont
« Reply #90 on: August 20, 2021, 12:17:00 PM »
I'm curious as one who has never stimped a green before, much less derived a rating for a course.

But if one is looking for a valid assessment, shouldn't this consist of multiple measurements on multiple greens with at least some of those being 3-4 measurements in the exact same spot as a control?

A handful of data points can be wildly disparate, but if you have 40 or 50, that would seem to be far more statistically accurate.  I would think if I were doing it to take all the measurements, throw out the outliers, and average the rest for a "course rating".

Rob Marshall

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Re: Playing Up The Wrong Fairways at Oakmont
« Reply #91 on: August 20, 2021, 01:29:49 PM »
When I've used a stimp I've found a relatively flat spot on the green. Rolled and measured 4 balls then do the same thing in the opposite direction and averaged the results. I don't see how it could be that far off..........
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Will Lozier

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Re: Playing Up The Wrong Fairways at Oakmont
« Reply #92 on: August 20, 2021, 05:16:26 PM »
Buddy played them at well north of 17 the day he played.  Member I know that’s a member of the course I caddy at backed it up. US Open has them at roughly 13 to 14 so…


 ::)

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing Up The Wrong Fairways at Oakmont
« Reply #93 on: August 20, 2021, 07:53:00 PM »
Buddy played them at well north of 17 the day he played.  Member I know that’s a member of the course I caddy at backed it up. US Open has them at roughly 13 to 14 so…


 ::)


 ::) ::) exactly.
"Well north of 17"..
What does "well north of 17 mean?" 18?19?
each number just illustrates how silly such a number is.
That could be true,I guess, if no putt stayed on the green unless it was holed.(on a green with any sort've desireable or interesting slope)
redundant post by me, I know, just frustrates the crap out of me to read nonsense like that.
17....whatever.
just cause you can, doesn't mean you should..
« Last Edit: August 21, 2021, 12:08:39 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Anthony_Nysse

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Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Jeff Schley

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Re: Playing Up The Wrong Fairways at Oakmont
« Reply #95 on: August 21, 2021, 01:49:16 AM »
McArthur's Fast Greens - YouTube
Anthony that was so funny when their measuring tape wasn't even long enough!!!!   ;D
Since you are supposed to measure your stimps on a flat surface and go in both directions. I know they have the X2 notch for greens that don't have 10 plus feet of flat surface and you just X2 the reading. Does anyone know how often this is used and which courses if you are aware?
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing Up The Wrong Fairways at Oakmont
« Reply #96 on: August 21, 2021, 08:21:15 AM »
I'm curious as one who has never stimped a green before, much less derived a rating for a course.

But if one is looking for a valid assessment, shouldn't this consist of multiple measurements on multiple greens with at least some of those being 3-4 measurements in the exact same spot as a control?

A handful of data points can be wildly disparate, but if you have 40 or 50, that would seem to be far more statistically accurate.  I would think if I were doing it to take all the measurements, throw out the outliers, and average the rest for a "course rating".


That is how it's done. The method is three rolls in one direction, take the average and roll back from there. I just roll back from the average spot as it's quicker, but measuring it in both directions and taking the average is technically more accurate - although the difference is minor, if at all. It should be a straight roll and the balls should all stop within 8" of each other and within 16" of both directions. If using the x2 side on a shorter distance, these tolerances should be halved.


I've played with it over the years on slopes for fun and the readings are actually pretty accurate even if the difference in both directions are way off - ie a 6 up hill and an 18 downhill would average a 12, which would match the proper roll on the flat area. There is a formula out there to more accurately calculate the roll on slopes but the best way is to find a flat spot. The x2 side of the stimpmeter (which wasn't around when that video was made) doesn't need much room as the roll is halved. On a side note, if you use the x2 backwards so the ball has the longer roll down the meter, the greenspeed goes up x1.5.....


Its funny this thread went here as I spend a few weeks this summer dealing with this and working out why the readings didn't match up to the perceived speed (ie they "are not as fast as usual", even though the reading was over a ft more than normal...). The issue is that its not a very accurate device, as it relies on the users input as well as other factors. Generally, a person will use it the same every time, therefore getting a consistent result, but the issue is comparing that to another user or different conditions. Eg someone else may raise it fractionally quicker and get a slightly different reading. There's consistently a half foot difference between my assistant and my readings, on the same spot at the same time...... Even the type of ball can add an extra foot of roll.....


Jeff, I pretty much use the x2 every time as it's more accurate as it can be done on a smaller and easier to find flat spot. I don't know how many others use it but I'd say most people are in the same boat. FWIW I've seen the USGA use it also for tournaments for the same reason.







Golf construction & maintenance are like creating a masterpiece; Da Vinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa's eyes first..... You start with the backdrop, layer on the detail and fine tune the finished product into a masterpiece

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Playing Up The Wrong Fairways at Oakmont
« Reply #97 on: August 21, 2021, 09:20:32 AM »
As to the original topic of the thread: Lon Hinkle.


As to the discussion about Stimp speeds: why does anyone ever care? I would imagine an experienced Superintendent knows how to prepare greens for playability and turf health. If the club has members whose egos are invested in the Stimp reading, the Superintendent can just a sign on the first tee saying 13 regardless of the actual speed. 99 out of 100 members would have no clue if they were slower.


Ira

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Playing Up The Wrong Fairways at Oakmont
« Reply #98 on: August 21, 2021, 10:03:35 AM »

As to the original topic of the thread: Lon Hinkle.



Ira:


I do remember Lon Hinkle, at Inverness in 1979.  He was short-cutting a new par-5 that had been cobbled together from two holes by George & Tom Fazio in their 1970s renovation.  They planted a big spruce tree on the line into the 17th fairway overnight, to try and discourage him.


That short-cut took about 35 yards off the length of a par five, and it still would.  They've planted a few more trees over the years to try and discourage it, but it's still there, waiting for the next championship to come.  Lon Hinkle shall rise again!


JohnVDB

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Re: Playing Up The Wrong Fairways at Oakmont
« Reply #99 on: August 21, 2021, 11:17:49 AM »
If you have the chance to go on any green at a USGA championship, you can look for two small black Ts.  These are where the USGA agronomists stimp the green each day.


This guarantees they are measuring the same place in the same directions every day.  It is also usually the flattest spot they can find on the green so the measurement is as close as possible to the same in both directions.


I always enjoyed laughing at players in practice rounds thinking these are the hole locations we’ve chosen, even when they might only be 3 or 4 feet from the edge of the green.  Frequently they stick tees in them during their practice rounds and make it hard for the agronomist to find them in the morning.

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