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Ronald Montesano

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Merion and Oakmont - Long-Term USGA Relationship Thread
« on: August 11, 2021, 11:18:01 AM »
Here we go!!
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Merion and Oakmont - Long-Term USGA Relationship Thread
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2021, 11:21:50 AM »
I'll start. Oakmont is malleable enough to adjust to the technological onslaught, which will not abate at any moment. Are there places on holes at Merion where #USOpenTees can be dropped in? Perhaps it doesn't need as many as I fear. Again, these are tees that are not even mowed unless a bombers' championship is being held.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Tim_Cronin

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Re: Merion and Oakmont - Long-Term USGA Relationship Thread
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2021, 11:30:15 AM »
Between Oakmont, Merion and Pinehurst, the Open calendar is being filled rapidly.


The next available Open is 2028. There are only 14 open Open slots through 2048, and figure the Pebble Beach-Olympic Club-Torrey Pines trio will get some of those. Not much left for the rest of the country, especially the midwest.


Will the people who made this call be alive to see the 2050 Merion Open?
« Last Edit: August 11, 2021, 12:50:30 PM by Tim_Cronin »
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

Tommy Williamsen

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Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

MCirba

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Re: Merion and Oakmont - Long-Term USGA Relationship Thread
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2021, 12:00:14 PM »
Wow...not surprised by 2030 given the Bobby Jones Grand Slam Centennial, but 2050 as well?   Sure hope technology is reigned in or rolled back by then.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

jeffwarne

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Re: Merion and Oakmont - Long-Term USGA Relationship Thread
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2021, 12:38:03 PM »
Wow...not surprised by 2030 given the Bobby Jones Grand Slam Centennial, but 2050 as well?   Sure hope technology is reigned in or rolled back by then.


By then the $$ will be big enough to do an ANGC and buy the neighborhood and redo it again.
The message is crystal clear to older clubs who someday want to host an Open(or stay on the rota)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

JESII

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Re: Merion and Oakmont - Long-Term USGA Relationship Thread
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2021, 01:05:50 PM »
I'm curious what equipment advances have enabled any increased distance in the last 20 years?


I would wager 90+% of the distance increases between 2001 and today is optimization (launch technology supported but not created) and the intersection of strength training and instruction technique. I don't know how you could stop those two factors...

Kyle Harris

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Re: Merion and Oakmont - Long-Term USGA Relationship Thread
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2021, 01:19:42 PM »
I'm curious what equipment advances have enabled any increased distance in the last 20 years?


I would wager 90+% of the distance increases between 2001 and today is optimization (launch technology supported but not created) and the intersection of strength training and instruction technique. I don't know how you could stop those two factors...


The same way you’d do it if it were the equipment.


Rollback the equipment.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Jeff Schley

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Re: Merion and Oakmont - Long-Term USGA Relationship Thread
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2021, 01:20:25 PM »
I have played both clubs several times and there is nothing to complain about as they are very worthy venues and certain to deliver a great test. I do loathe the idea of announcing every single tournament 20-30 years in advance. I did think the USGA wants to play more public courses that aren't just Pebble and Pinehurst (i.e. 500-600 bucks a round).
I know the Open Championship has a rota with TOC as the centerpiece. I don't think the USGA needs to follow that as we have new courses being built and restored much more frequently.  Why not leave them open and add in more variety as has always happened, particularly since many northern venues can't be used for the May PGA Championship now.
For the Women's US Open I'd love to see the following (perhaps a pipe dream):
  • Pine Valley allowing one there and convince all their recent allowance of Women members isn't for show. Would be great PR for them IMO.
  • Cypress Point in their rotation as it is too short for men, but the women would be great albeit with limited spectators.
  • Use Chicago GC once every 20 years.
  • Bandon used as a site for a women's open.
  • Maidstone, obviously too short for men, but I think would provide a great setting and test for the ladies. Although not great for spectators.
A guy can dream.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Merion and Oakmont - Long-Term USGA Relationship Thread
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2021, 01:32:13 PM »
Does anyone know why Baltusrol has fallen out of USGA favor? I know they now have a relationship with the PGA.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

jeffwarne

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Re: Merion and Oakmont - Long-Term USGA Relationship Thread
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2021, 01:35:51 PM »
I'm curious what equipment advances have enabled any increased distance in the last 20 years?


I would wager 90+% of the distance increases between 2001 and today is optimization (launch technology supported but not created) and the intersection of strength training and instruction technique. I don't know how you could stop those two factors...


agree 100%.You don't "stop" them.
but that doesn't mean you can't recognize that the scale is out of whack and change things like COR, overall distance standard, or some other area I'm overlooking.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Brent Carlson

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Re: Merion and Oakmont - Long-Term USGA Relationship Thread
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2021, 01:59:32 PM »

Any predictions for 2028 and beyond?  I would think the USGA returns to the Midwest at some point.


2022 - TCC Brookline
2023 - LACC
2024 - Pinehurst #2
2025 - Oakmont
2026 - Shinnecock Hills
2027 - Pebble Beach
2028 - ?
2029 - Pinehurst #2
2030 - Merion
2031 - ?
2032 - ?
2033 - ?
2034 - Oakmont
2035 - Pinehurst #2



« Last Edit: August 11, 2021, 02:02:35 PM by Brent Carlson »

JESII

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Re: Merion and Oakmont - Long-Term USGA Relationship Thread
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2021, 02:16:15 PM »
I'm curious what equipment advances have enabled any increased distance in the last 20 years?


I would wager 90+% of the distance increases between 2001 and today is optimization (launch technology supported but not created) and the intersection of strength training and instruction technique. I don't know how you could stop those two factors...


agree 100%.You don't "stop" them.
but that doesn't mean you can't recognize that the scale is out of whack and change things like COR, overall distance standard, or some other area I'm overlooking.




It certainly sounds like Mike Whan is on board for that work.

Steve Lapper

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Re: Merion and Oakmont - Long-Term USGA Relationship Thread
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2021, 02:59:49 PM »
To a large measure, I'm not surprised whatsoever by this announcement.

Oakmont has long earned it's place as a deserved, durable and deserved venue for the US Open. It probably provides the most reliably sturdy test of the game's best, even with their massive distances and unchecked modern equipment. The club prides itself on being Open ready most any day its members are playing.

I understand the affinity and love for Merion GC. The club's pride and it's historic tally of USGA Championships is impressive, but there's little question the course is length-constrained and requires skull-trickery with ridiculous rough and pencil-thin mowing lines to stiffen it up to protect par. Shy of the USGA imposing real brakes on equipment and distance (something I think Mike Whan would like to do*, but the Executive Committee neither has the stomach nor spine for), a Men's Open at Merion in the 21st Century feels like trying to squeeze the NCAA tournament into Myopia Hunt.

Don't get me wrong. I love Merion and all of it's marvelous strategic angles and test from tee to cup. It's one of our country's finest for sure. It just seems as if the modern circus that is the USGA's Open has grown too large and too long for this Ardmore Avenue gem. The event takes a massive toll on the course and its immediate neighborhood is far from inconsequential. It may make sense for the US Amateur, the Women's Open, etc... but less so for the Men's Open. Just one man's opinion

* I really look forward to Mike Whan taking the reigns in Far Hills. Other than the abnormal conditioning issues at his new-found Hamilton Farms home, many around the parts see him as a breath of fresh air. Mike Davis should be lauded for steady progress, however Mike Whan's style of thinking-outside-the-box should prove plenty refreshing for the dandruff-on-blue crowd.

Tommy Williamson....you provided 51% of the answer to your own question. 8)
« Last Edit: August 11, 2021, 03:07:21 PM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Wayne Wiggins, Jr.

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Re: Merion and Oakmont - Long-Term USGA Relationship Thread
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2021, 03:03:27 PM »

Any predictions for 2028 and beyond?  I would think the USGA returns to the Midwest at some point.


2022 - TCC Brookline
2023 - LACC
2024 - Pinehurst #2
2025 - Oakmont
2026 - Shinnecock Hills
2027 - Pebble Beach
2028 - ?
2029 - Pinehurst #2
2030 - Merion
2031 - ?
2032 - ?
2033 - ?
2034 - Oakmont
2035 - Pinehurst #2


I like the 100 yr Anniversary hooks for Merion and curious to why they wouldn't do the same w/ Oakmont as 2035 would've been the 100 yr of Sam Parks Jr's win.


So keeping with that theme, how about:
2028 - Olympia Fields - 100 yr anniv of Johnny Farrell beating Bobby Jones in playoff. Plus has recently hosted big time PGA tourney.2031 - Inverness - 100 yr. anniv2032 - Shinnecock - Fresh Meadow on LI hosted the 1932 won by Sarazen

JESII

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Re: Merion and Oakmont - Long-Term USGA Relationship Thread
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2021, 03:09:27 PM »
Wow...not surprised by 2030 given the Bobby Jones Grand Slam Centennial, but 2050 as well?   Sure hope technology is reigned in or rolled back by then.


The Hogan Anniversary...

MCirba

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Re: Merion and Oakmont - Long-Term USGA Relationship Thread
« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2021, 03:23:47 PM »
Jim,


Yep...just looking at the incredible distance gains over my lifetime of 63 years has my worried about the state of the game in 29 more.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Brad Engel

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Re: Merion and Oakmont - Long-Term USGA Relationship Thread
« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2021, 03:58:23 PM »

I like the 100 yr Anniversary hooks for Merion and curious to why they wouldn't do the same w/ Oakmont as 2035 would've been the 100 yr of Sam Parks Jr's win.


So keeping with that theme, how about:
2028 - Olympia Fields - 100 yr anniv of Johnny Farrell beating Bobby Jones in playoff. Plus has recently hosted big time PGA tourney.2031 - Inverness - 100 yr. anniv2032 - Shinnecock - Fresh Meadow on LI hosted the 1932 won by Sarazen



I personally would love to see Inverness get awarded one of the open slots, but from what I hear, Oakland Hills has been very vocal about getting one in return for their recent work. Don't see a scenario where both courses get one as they are ~2 hours drive from each other. Any one have any other inside scoop about which way the wind is blowing?

Jeff Segol

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Re: Merion and Oakmont - Long-Term USGA Relationship Thread
« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2021, 04:08:11 PM »
Seems pretty obvious that the USGA effort to take the Open to munis has now gone by the wayside, with that effort now being ceded to the PGA, based on their trip to Harding Park. I would now expect the PGA to be the entity that looks for new sites to publicize, including public courses. I'm guessing the USGA retreat may be because of their concern about being able to control the conditions, and all the criticism of the greens at Chambers Bay. By going to sites where they've been before, they know what they're dealing with. I am surprised that cstes for the rest of the 20s are basically on the coasts, nothing in the middle. Perhaps they'll make up for that via post-2028 sites.

Kevin_Reilly

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Re: Merion and Oakmont - Long-Term USGA Relationship Thread
« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2021, 04:23:27 PM »
Today's weather delay at Oakmont (and the time zone difference) reinforces my preference for West Coast sites.  No rain/lightning/humidity, and prime time Sunday finishes for those on the East Coast.


With the PGA and Ryder Cup going to Olympic (so it is probably out of the USGA rota), the number of West Coast sites for the US Open is limited, though.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Jeff Segol

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Re: Merion and Oakmont - Long-Term USGA Relationship Thread
« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2021, 04:26:46 PM »
Is the visit to LACC a one-off, or is there some chance for an ongoing relationship if both the USGA and the club are happy with the way things go? I know it took a long time to pursuade the club to do the Open.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Merion and Oakmont - Long-Term USGA Relationship Thread
« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2021, 04:55:12 PM »
Is the visit to LACC a one-off, or is there some chance for an ongoing relationship if both the USGA and the club are happy with the way things go? I know it took a long time to pursuade the club to do the Open.


Certainly one or both sides would want to see how the first one turns out before committing to more.

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Merion and Oakmont - Long-Term USGA Relationship Thread
« Reply #22 on: August 11, 2021, 05:04:20 PM »
In some ways this is a sobering list. I might not be around after the 2038 Open. Someone will have to let me know who wins.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Wayne Wiggins, Jr.

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Re: Merion and Oakmont - Long-Term USGA Relationship Thread
« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2021, 05:22:54 PM »
Today's weather delay at Oakmont (and the time zone difference) reinforces my preference for West Coast sites.  No rain/lightning/humidity, and prime time Sunday finishes for those on the East Coast.


Agreed! I'd imagine Torrey Pines is another West Coast anchor site.


With the PGA and Ryder Cup going to Olympic (so it is probably out of the USGA rota), the number of West Coast sites for the US Open is limited, though.


Completely uneducated guess on my part, but I can't imagine the USGA, with the US Open, walking away from Olympic and vice versa. With that said, when you add in the pending renovation work to the courses, there's not much room to fit any other events until after the 2033 Ryder Cup

Dave McCollum

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Re: Merion and Oakmont - Long-Term USGA Relationship Thread
« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2021, 09:04:16 PM »
I agree with the comments about Merion, my one and only US Open experience.  Long ago when I hung out here more and made an effort to see a few of the courses discussed here, my son asked me what courses I most wanted to play.  I mentioned about 5 or so like Merion and CPC.  A few years later his father's day gift was going to the 2013 US Open with him at Merion.  He's not really a golfer and after slogging around in the rain and muck and the horrendous USGA setup, he asked me what makes this course so great?  We walked around for nine holes or so with frequent stops where I asked him to image playing the hole as I imagined it was intended to be played.  I don't know what he got out of the experience, but it scrambled some switches in my brain and I never looked at golf courses the same way as I had before.  I'm sure a big part of that was seeing a course set up for a US Open that was so antithetical, so alien, to it's evolved landscape and playing strategies as to be like a line of play spray painted (by the mowing lines) onto this wonderful canvas.  Also, having to explain to my son what I was seeing fried some other synapses.  It was a big deal for me.


On a completely OT note, we've been having a 3-day IGA/USGA (Idaho) junior golf tournament on our course.  Today is the final day.  I went out and watched a playoff for 13-14 year old's.  3-way playoff for 2nd and 3rd place.  I just felt like doing it, getting out on the course, watching some kids who could really play, enjoy watching the parents watching their kids compete, etc.  I just joined in at random, driving my 20 year old golf cart, wearing the same clothes I had on when we had to fix a major water leak at 6 AM this morning.  Day-in-the-life stuff.  No big deal.  From my point of view, it was a really fun playoff:  birdie, birdie, par on the first hole, #1 handicap; par, par on the next, #3 handicap; and par, par on the 3rd hole, a par 5 they both reached in two and three-putted. Next up a drive-able par four that Tom Doak really liked.  Both kids hit safe conservative shots, hole high, but left with tricky chips, which they both flubbed, then recovered with slightly less tricky chips and made par.  My golf course is holding up to two young studs and teaching them the respect they need to learn.  They are playing well, walking, packing their clubs, and playing quickly!  Good as it gets.  A joy to watch.  It ends on the next hole when one makes a 25 foot put for birdie on a subtle green.  The kids shake hands, hug, and act like they're mates who have played before.


The 14 year-old kid that lost the playoff--3rd place in the tournament, not bad at somewhere around even par--is a kid that might show up again, not just to give an old geezer some pleasure watching kids play his course, but when he grows a little and maybe wants to be a golfer.  His name is Cameron Kuchar.  His dad Matt wasn't here, off somewhere trying to keep his card, I think.  But I'm glad Cam found his way here and made my day.                           

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