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Zac Blair

  • Karma: +0/-0
Great Greens
« on: August 08, 2021, 11:44:34 AM »
I have always been fascinated about what everyone thinks makes "GREAT GREENS" .... sort of like anything else in life everyone has their own opinions ... I would love to know what some people on here think.


It can be a specific green and why you like it .... or a set of greens you think are great etc.




jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Greens
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2021, 12:28:33 PM »
Having played Palmetto regularly since the late 70's it took me a long time to realize how many great greens Palmetto has, and how their variety fits into the rhythm and flow of the round.


Many are receptive to the ground game, a few are not, and a few slope deceptively away from the player, making local knowledge a must.
Controlling spin is paramount with slope and tilt often a factor, and there are multiple greens where a pretty good pitch or chip is required just to get on the green if the green is missed.
What really contributes to my enjoyment there is the fact that their "short grass" is not SO short and tight that reasonable contact is terrifying-allowing the player to absorb and play a variety of varied trajectories, spins and shots, rather than being so terrified of reasonable execution and predictability that the play is always a putt or bumbled hybrid. ::)


I've only played it once but I remember outstanding, unique greens at Cape Arundel and certainly NGLA has a fabulous set of greens.


The faster turf speeds get(both on and around the green), the less variety and uniqueness that can be designed into greens.


Honestly, I also think 9 hole SI Goat Hill has a really good and varied set of greens that require local knowledge, strategy for approach locations, skill and imagination. With a bit of conditioning(or less) around the greens, they can be as fun as it gets, and the greens make the course the gem I believe it is.


"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Greens
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2021, 12:39:50 PM »
 8)


Zac , good luck with your project many here wishing you great success, excellent story.




Greens are the key to great golf. They can be simple and accomplish this, or they can be wild and crazy. Note the setting , weather and clientele all factor in.


The second green at Pine Valley might be the best I've ever seen. So many pins, so many strategies. Fits the hole perfectly.


Also the set of 18 greens there are pretty exceptional , arguably the best anywhere. .

Kye Goalby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Greens
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2021, 01:05:09 PM »
Zac,


I’m sure I’m forgetting a few places, but  here is a quick list of courses that have some of my favorite complete sets of greens.


Where I've worked:
Apache Stronghold
Charles River
Ballyneal
Oakland Hills
Oyster Harbors
Pasatiempo
Princess Anne CC
Stonewall North ( quite wacky as a set, but fun!)
Tara Iti


Where I've played:
Barnbougle
Belvedere
Kankakee Elks
Lawsonia
Merion
NGLA
North Berwick
Old Course
Royal Melbourne
Riviera
Rye
Shinnecock
Somerset Hills













Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Greens
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2021, 01:37:31 PM »
Zac, I like it when the intended speed matches the slope and undulation. Four Streams outside DC has greens that were designed to play at about 11. When the greens ran much slower the greens didn't have much break and weren't as much fun.. At Ballyhack there is a bunch of slope and undulation. If they run at 11 or faster they are almost unplayable. At Hidden Creek there is both slope and undulation but less severe than Ballyhack. They can run and be fun at 9 or 11. Same is true for Dormie.


Hopefully, you will not have input as to how the super mows the greens.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2021, 01:58:08 PM by Tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Greens
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2021, 03:04:08 PM »
I walked the Old Course today.  Do greens get better?
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Greens
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2021, 03:43:06 PM »
For me, great greens and green complexes match and reinforce the overall character of the course.


Woking—strategy
Ballyneal—boldness
Pasatiempo—broad shouldered
Pine Needles—harmonious
North Berwick—variety
PH2–all about the angles


Ira

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Greens
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2021, 03:45:29 PM »
Mulranny.
Atb

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Greens
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2021, 03:59:37 PM »
Mulranny.
Atb


Mulranny are brilliant greens. This is a really good shout. Although they are so slopey they need to run at about 6.


From classic links courses, I like Machrihanish & Deal. From Open courses, Royal St Georges & Portrush…. Woking are the best set of heathland greens. Ganton are a really good inland set that are far more subtle.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Greens
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2021, 04:04:04 PM »
Yale-Confounding but incredibly compelling .

MLevesque

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Greens
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2021, 04:45:11 PM »
Yale-Confounding but incredibly compelling .


Large (very large) over small. Multiple tiers/plateaus.  Give the golfer the mixed emotion of the enjoy of hitting the green with the dread of a potential three putt.  A few false fronts and run offs to make those large green play effectively smaller.  The longer an approach shot, chip or putt needs to be on the ground the better. 
I am Skew!

Jim Tang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Greens
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2021, 04:51:39 PM »
I enjoy greens that have....


1.  strong internal contours rather than broad gentle slopes


2.  features that allow a golfer to feed the ball to specific hole locations


3.  slopes that generally feed the ball onto the green rather than slopes that repel shots off the green


4.  larger greens that provide many hole locations rather than smaller greens with fewer hole locations


5.  stand alone greens.  I am not a huge fan of a green shared between two holes

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Greens
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2021, 05:13:20 PM »
I’d be interested to hear thoughts on the greens and green complexes at reversible courses (but not TOC) or courses that were once reversible but are no longer played in such a manner. Also double-greens.
Atb

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Greens
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2021, 06:26:14 PM »
I’m struggling a bit with identifying a set of great greens without considering the context (the rest of the course) in which they reside. Take a great set of greens from one great course and put them on an entirely different routing on entirely different terrain, and they might not work so well.
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Greens
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2021, 06:35:54 PM »
I’m struggling a bit with identifying a set of great greens without considering the context (the rest of the course) in which they reside. Take a great set of greens from one great course and put them on an entirely different routing on entirely different terrain, and they might not work so well.


I think we have think about the entire greens complex and how receptive they are to shots, chipping, pitching, and bunkers are incorporated.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Morgan Clawson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Greens
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2021, 06:54:57 PM »
If I were in your shoes I think I would try to design the green complexes differently from other courses in your peer group / geographic area.


I’m a huge fan of Prairie Dunes greens. Ballyneal’s greens and complexes are exceptional.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Great Greens
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2021, 07:01:24 PM »
Do a 'great set of greens' make it more likely that a given golfer will shoot his typical score, or less likely?

Will that golfer shoot a higher score on a 'great set of greens' than he does at his home course, or a lower one?

Or does the quality of a set of greens have little or nothing to do with the scores we shoot?

Are a great set of modern greens different than a great set of golden age greens?

Crystal Downs has a great set of greens, and the one time I played it I took about 12-15 shots more than I usually do.

Would Zac (or any modern golf course developer) want a great set of greens that has well heeled retail golfers  shooting 12-15 strokes above their expected/typical scores?

Would such greens still be considered great?

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Greens
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2021, 01:30:45 AM »
I have always been fascinated about what everyone thinks makes "GREAT GREENS" .... sort of like anything else in life everyone has their own opinions ... I would love to know what some people on here think.


It can be a specific green and why you like it .... or a set of greens you think are great etc.

Variery and interest. Deal.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Greens
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2021, 07:16:26 AM »
 8)


Great greens blend into the design seamlessly. I'm thinking that  it's better to build them first and then work back to the tee. Just a personal thing but it seems so easy to work back..


Given the importance of the green and that 50% of the shots are generally around them they better be good!

Tim Gallant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Greens
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2021, 08:00:23 AM »
Not sure they have been mentioned yet, but Oakmont, host of this week's US Am have some of the best greens. I love how the orientation to play is so varied, as well as their internal contours, which allow for fun putts, and fun pins.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Greens
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2021, 08:08:36 AM »
Not sure they have been mentioned yet, but Oakmont, host of this week's US Am have some of the best greens. I love how the orientation to play is so varied, as well as their internal contours, which allow for fun putts, and fun pins.


Marrying the fall line and speed correctly on greens with internal contours is one of the most fun challenges of the game for me.


Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Greens
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2021, 08:25:18 AM »
I think the VAST majority of golfers, especially at their home clubs, cannot articulate the differences between:


A. Great greens
B. Great putting surfaces


I would say that 90%+ of golfers (not here) equate "great greens" with the quality of the surfaces and how the ball rolls.


Sad, but true.


In my naive opinion, aside from turn quality, "great geens" seemlessly integrate and "tie-in" with: bunkers, approaches, fairway angles and topographic placement. They appear to be naturally placed and flow with the landscape.


Others have captured the contouring, etc.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Greens
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2021, 08:41:56 AM »

I would say that 90%+ of golfers (not here) equate "great greens" with the quality of the surfaces and how the ball rolls.
+1

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Greens
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2021, 08:52:26 AM »
I appreciate that I'm speaking in a UK context and that Tim and Ian are probably speaking more in a US context but I think you've got to have a decent level of conditioning to make the greens shine, otherwise its hard to really tell if they are great or not.

That said, my criteria for great greens has to include the entire green complex as more often than not I'll have missed the green and will be chipping which is one of the most enjoyable parts of the game for me. The more variety and different ways to play a shot allied to some interesting internal contours (nothing too severe or it becomes a bit flukey) makes my day. Good examples that come to mind;

Deal
Beau Desert
Ganton (having just played it)

Niall

James Reader

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Greens
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2021, 10:08:30 AM »
Huntercombe is one that hasn’t been mentioned yet but would be on my list.

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