[Jeff_Brauer]

Tagging on the Marty Bonnar's thread on oft repeated course reviews, I think of similar things I have heard from golfers on what makes for a great strategic course (or a bad one)


I played one of my courses the other day with a buff, and relayed the story about the golf pro asking about the 9th hole....
"So you put water left on the tee shot, which tells me to play right, but then, I have to come over a bunker from that angle, and a tree if I am a bit more off line.  Shouldn't you have opened up the green from the safe side of the fw?"


Or, another classic I have relayed here, "I think it should be just as easy to reach the green on a par 5 in two shots from the fw bunker as it is from the middle of the fw, don't you?" 


Another variant from an interview at a private club (unsuccessful for me, LOL) "Don't you think I should have just as good a lie if I hit it into the woods as if I'm in the middle of the fw?"


Those three comments alone were enough to cement one of my sales codicils...don't tell the whole truth until after you have secured the project...dammit!

[Peter Pallotta]

I once had the idea (and might have even said it out loud) that flat/contour-less greens tilted back to front were the most strategic of all, and of the purest kind. I don't now remember the background to/thinking behind that idea, but it must've seemed very compelling to me at the time.

[Kalen Braley]

"If I'm on the green, I should always be able to two-putt!"

Sorry, couldn't resist! 

[Gib_Papazian]

A friend of mine at the club - a "billionaire with a B" - dismissed R.T. Jones Sr's Mauna Kea as a "strategic and aesthetic piece of shit" - and once tried to buy it and let Tom Fazio turn it into "a legitimate golf course, not an exercise in architectural self indulgence."


Walking down the 10th fairway on the Lake Course, we agreed to disagree.


But when my daughter asked if I thought applying to Brown University was a good idea (he went there), that conversation was my first thought.


She eventually graduated summa cum laude from Dad's beloved university . . . . . and thankfully, Mauna Kea still stands, mostly intact.   

[Erik J. Barzeski]

(As I'm not an architect I can only guess at these.) Do any of these make the list(s)?

• "I should be able to hit driver on every par four or par five tee."
• "I should have a flat lie in the fairway."
• "Par fives should have a good layup area at about 100 yards where everyone lays up."
• "Equality"! (What I mean by this is "the number of doglegs left should match the number right" or "the number of bunkers left should match the number of bunkers right" or whatever).

[Mike_Clayton]

This one from a British Open runner-up
''Royal Melbourne would be a much better course is they narrowed the fairways and grew the rough"


Not that we need any more proof, but it's another example of a really good golfer not knowing anything about golf. (He's a friend of mine and I think I've disagreed with just about every opinion he's had on golf courses - for 40 years)

[Kyle Harris]

Relief for divot.
Bring back the stymie.
Eliminate Stroke and Distance.


Oh. You mean golf architecture.

[Brad Lawrence]

I overheard someone on the patio say that most of the putts on this golf course break to the right.

[Joe_Tucholski]

Bring back the stymie.

I like the stymie if match play is the primary form of competition.


I've heard a variation of the following many times:
Who's the idiot that put a bunker here.  I always end up in it.

[Jason Thurman]

A buddy tonight griped as his short sided pitch ran past the hole (our parkland course has been ruthlessly fast and firm lately) about how you shouldn’t have to land the ball in the rough to get it close...

[Mike_Trenham]

“We never play ‘winter rules’ but if we get a bad lie we roll it over.

[Lou_Duran]

Covid bunker options (place on a good lie or drop out of the bunker with no penalty) should be made permanent and written into the Rule book, after all, the bunker rake is now obsolete and clubs can't find enough workers to hire.

[Rory Connaughton]

In support of flattening the 15th a Lancaster:


"Why should we care what William Flynn was thinking 100 years ago. It's our course, we can do whatever we want. If these greens didn't have so much slope in them, I would have been better at putting the greens we played (on a particular elite circuit)."

[Tommy Williamsen]

My host at Pine Valley graciously allowed me to bring a couple friends. After the round one of them, a low handicapper, said, "I don't think the course is so great. You get too many bad lies if you are off the fairway."

[Jim_Coleman]

   Our 18th hole plays as a 480 yard par 4 from the “tips,” and a 530 yard par 5 from the “whites.”  Last week, the super put the white tees at the 480 spot.  My partner, a good player, asked, “are they playing this as a par 4 or par 5 today?”

[Kyle Harris]

The only response to any of these comments is:


“Is it unreasonable to expect an expert golfer to make par from *insert situation here*.”


That usually shuts it down.

[Jason Thurman]

   Our 18th hole plays as a 480 yard par 4 from the “tips,” and a 530 yard par 5 from the “whites.”  Last week, the super put the white tees at the 480 spot.  My partner, a good player, asked, “are they playing this as a par 4 or par 5 today?”

This... seems like a fair question, at least if you're playing any sort of mixed-tee competition with strokes getting allocated. Which I get probably wasn't the case, but it's not exactly an unconfusing way of setting up the tees either on a daily basis or on this particular day.


I played with Ol' Uncle Mike at the club last night. He's a 27 handicap and only discusses his score in net terms. When he poured in a 25 footer for gross par on our 480 yard par 4, he was able to happily spend the rest of the evening telling everyone who would listen (and at least a dozen people who wouldn't) about his eagle. He would definitely have appreciated knowing for sure if he had actually made an albatross under the terms of the day's competition.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I once had the idea (and might have even said it out loud) that flat/contour-less greens tilted back to front were the most strategic of all, and of the purest kind. I don't now remember the background to/thinking behind that idea, but it must've seemed very compelling to me at the time.

I don't know about "most strategic of all" but I agree with your main point.  Of course, the "plane" green will have to tilt somewhere about 1.5% for drainage, but in reality, it should provide a proportional reward for those able to place the ball just below the hole, and closer to it.  Gentle rolls and more certainly add an element of random outcomes, which in general we accept, so I would consider this a once per course kind of feature for variety. 


Of course, we would have to convince the owners and shapers we really wanted that and it was a good idea.  I could start a thread one of the craziest things heard from clients and shapers, and among the top responses I have had is, "Um, that green is different from the rest, don't you think it should be like the others?"  One shaper on a recent project took it upon himself to build a planned 7,500 SF green closer to the "normal" size of the first three he had built, using that theory.  Since he was a shaper and not owner, I had a minor hat throwing incident   and asked him to go back home and bring me the golf architecture book where some gca told him that was a widely accepted design theory!  (BTW, not saying this is any reflection on Mike Young, but he was imported by the contractor, and has done a lot of work with him, LOL) Just saying to see if I can get a rise out of Mike!

[Jeff_Brauer]

The only response to any of these comments is:


“Is it unreasonable to expect an expert golfer to make par from *insert situation here*.”


That usually shuts it down.

Kyle,


I've heard that from many golfers, usually involving carry bunkers, as in, "if I don't clear that bunker, I'll have a much harder shot, what's that all about?"  Uh, isn't that the point of any hazard?  In the real world, it's like an axe murderer wondering why his "right" to a free life should be taken away "just because" he hacked someone up.  (Grizzly example, but the hacking part made it seem more relevant to golf, LOL)

[Jeff_Brauer]

I have occasionally built a Dell type hole, and some others with kick plates as TD mentioned.  Every once in a while, I will hear a golfer exclaim it's unfair that they don't have a direct chip or putt to access the pin, and then I drop a ball and show them how to chip well away from the hole and use the slope to get there. 


On a Redan, I once had an employee (and later a client) ask why on earth would I design a hole where the best play isn't to play directly to a pin?  Luckily, most seem to understand the concept of using slopes after getting a gentle explanation of it, but such is the mindset of many golfers raised in the over watered and aerial game era.

[Gib_Papazian]

Tommy,


Drop the mic . . . . . the PV story wins first prize.

[Jon Sweet]

My host at Pine Valley graciously allowed me to bring a couple friends. After the round one of them, a low handicapper, said, "I don't think the course is so great. You get too many bad lies if you are off the fairway."

Did you friend fall and hit his head? A person in our group said Merion as we were crossing over from the 13th to the 14th said he’d rather go sit on the patio and drink Pine Valleys and wait for us to finish. He didn’t manage to get the return invite. Called it a golf factory. Classic.

[Gib_Papazian]

Jon,


That is like paying for a Disneyland ticket and not going on Pirates (The Quarry Hole) or the Haunted House (recreating Hy Peskin's picture on #18).


Pick up the mic, that tops the topper - like playing the front side at Shinnecock and saying you're too tired to walk the back nine.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

"If I'm on the green, I should always be able to two-putt!"

Sorry, couldn't resist! 




This is essentially USGA/R&A Rules of Golf 5E (2) Selecting a Hole Location
with the second putt being a tap in on a flat lie from 2 feet.


why not just say with the second putt being a "gimme"
It would speed up the game

[John McCarthy]

On a short 4, from a 20 handicap - If I have a wedge in my hand I should have a reasonable birdie putt.

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