[Kyle Harris]

From Sara Mess, of all people:


“Do you think the standard ‘templates’ would be templates if Macdonald/Raynor/Banks wouldn’t have built/identified them?”


I said, “hell no.”


Your response? And justification. Mine coming later.

[Jeff_Brauer]

They would not have been templates, but some enterprising golf writer would have tracked down all XX of similar greens, and probably just called them "Mailed in" rather than an original design.  But, everything gets named eventually, and they still would have had some label, if not the same ones CBM used.

[Ben Hollerbach]

They may not have been called templates per se and may not have incorporated the "recreation" of an entire hole. But it is clear that courses built before the days of MacDonald were utilizing design features that had been inspired by those on other courses.


When Colt built Swinley Forest, did he specifically build the 4th to mimic the Redan at North Berwick? When did people start referring to that hole as a Redan style. Was Colt aware of MacDonald's use of the Redan template when he was working at Swinley Forest?

[Mark_Fine]

Kyle,
We have discussed this many times before as you know.  I believe essentially ALL architects have templates.  Some just disguise them better than Macdonald/Rayor/Banks did 


Patterns, tendencies, preferences,..., these are some of the words you could use in place of templates.  I just played a Tillinghast design out in central Pa.  Do you think Tillie didn't have "templates" that he liked to use? 
Mark

[Kyle Harris]

So the Raynor Prize Dogleg would still be the Raynor Prize Dogleg without Raynor?


Would anybody else have copied the Eden?


Built a Punchbowl?


Biarritz?!


Leven?!


Hogsback?


The question isn’t whether or not architects have their own templates… it’s whether or not those famous ones would have been identified as such!

[Thomas Dai]

Mirrored templates?
And “Inspired by..”?
Atb

[MCirba]

Kyle,

Flickr has made some changes that are vexing my ability to post pictures at the moment, but I came across a 1896 news article discussing changes made to the Aberdeen Balgownie course and each of the holes had names, some of which included "Road", "Redan", "Long", "Plateau", "Dyke", and so on, so the idea of emulating holes and/or features from other famous venues seems to have preceded the US iteration early in the 20th century.

The Redan was 305 yards long, which if memory serves may have been consistent with the original Redan being around that length before conversion to a par three.   I'm sure some good fact-checkers in here will help in that regard.

[Kyle Harris]

Mike,


Regarding the names… could they still at least be descriptions in the sense that we are copying the *name* of a hole from elsewhere because it well, played along the dyke or was situated atop a redan-like hillside (remember the military/Sebestopol origin of the term)?

[MCirba]

Mike,


Regarding the names… could they still at least be descriptions in the sense that we are copying the *name* of a hole from elsewhere because it well, played along the dyke or was situated atop a redan-like hillside (remember the military/Sebestopol origin of the term)?

Kyle,


Yes, absolutely.  I'll see if I can find further info, thanks.

[Gib_Papazian]

You gotta remember that C.B. was *usually* not trying to create identical copies, but identify specific individual elements that could be integrated not only into holes at NGLA, but beyond. Remember, for instance, there was no Biarritz at NGLA.


As far as Redan greens are concerned, not all of them were par-3s. #12 at Fishers Island is a par-4 Redan. When I was there, we noticed the Superintendent had not mowed the runup area - instead leaving it as rough - which seems to have nullified the design intent.


It all comes down to Prince Puckler's assertion (paraphrasing in "Giblish") that there are really no TRULY new legitimate ideas, just illegitimate perversions of "tried and true" arrangements.


Under that reasoning, the evolution of golf design in America would eventually have parroted the arrangements from the headwaters across the pond. If not C.B., then whoever ended up at the forefront of ramrodding the game into this country.


On a side note, I do not think Dev Emmett gets nearly enough credit as a seminal influence in assisting C.B. as another set of eyes overseas, scouting for standout design elements.


Remember, it was a long boat ride before 1927 and Lindberg's Spirit of St. Louis.     






 


   

[MCirba]

Gib,

Good post and very much agreed on Emmet.  Don't forget Mr. Travis as well, in that regard.

[Peter Pallotta]

A Hogsback by any other name would still be a pain in the ass -- but a Punchbowl would still be as sweet!

[MCirba]

A Hogsback by any other name would still be a pain in the ass -- but a Punchbowl would still be as sweet!

 

[Tom_Doak]

It all comes down to Prince Puckler's assertion (paraphrasing in "Giblish") that there are really no TRULY new legitimate ideas, just illegitimate perversions of "tried and true" arrangements.


Under that reasoning, the evolution of golf design in America would eventually have parroted the arrangements from the headwaters across the pond. If not C.B., then whoever ended up at the forefront of ramrodding the game into this country.

I was going to ask why I should listen to Prince Puckler any more than I should listen to Mark Fine today, but then it occurred to me that I didn’t know who he was, so I looked him up:


https://www.pueckler-museum.de/en/prince-of-pueckler/hermann-prince-of-pueckler-muskau/


What makes the Prince expert on the topic is lost on me (I would prefer to have heard from Prince, the musician).  But I am always suspicious when un-creative people posit that there are no new ideas, putting themselves on equal footing with those who seem to defy their premise.

[archie_struthers]

 


I can certainly agree with TD that Prince the rock star was really great.  So many fun songs and the man could play almost any instrument and dance almost as good as me LOL... a latter day Todd Rundren with soul


We could use some Purple rain here in the transition zone!

[Mark_Fine]

I think what would be interesting would be to see architects list the new ideas that they have introduced to the game and into their golf course designs that have not been done before.  I realize not many architects post here so if we know of novel ideas, we can list them for them.  Would any of Desmond Muirhead's ideas qualify?  Some of his work is way out there.  How about some of Jim Engh's work?  Was he one of the first to use black bunkers? Maybe not. What about RTJ and crushing lava to build courses on otherwise completely hostile land?  I guess that is construction novelty not design novelty. 

[Gib_Papazian]

Professor Doak,


The reason I brought up Prince Puckler (his full name was a bit ornate: Prince Hermann von Puckler-Muskau) specifically is he was a rather accomplished German landscape architect in the early 1800's. My recollection is he was quoted by C.B. Macdonald in Scotland's Gift and again, paraphrasing, that the constant search for novelty was the providence of "uncultivated minds."


My cranial functions are no longer as Aspy accurate as they once were, so when I get home later, I'll look up the specific words - but I believe that is fairly close to the substance of his point. Again, I'll have to look up the specific words, but I believe C.B. was using Puckler's words to bolster his belief in using "tried and true" arrangements in landscape architecture.


Whether this settles the argument that all possible legitimate strategic arrangements in golf (assuming equivalency between two disciplines) have been exhausted - and that everything else is either a well disguised rip-off or a legitimate epochal breakthrough, I'll leave to the Provost in the Faculty Lounge . . . . .


But the thread - since I'll concede my birdwalks admittedly often vector off into the realm of creative writing exercises - was about C.B., it seems relevant to refer to chapter and verse of the original Bible, even if there might be a discrepancy between the original scriptures and Gideon's King James version.


Anyone wishing to strike my Fishers Island comparison from the Redan has a legitimate point, because we both know Raynor (and Banks) put their own spin on the classics. Whether C.B. approved or not is lost in the ether of history.


However (not to swell your head), I've played enough of your work to recognize the inevitability that somebody might come along one day, take the iconic As My Guitar Gently Weeps - and eclipse not only the artist who wrote it, but have the balls to push an idea so far into the next dimensional plane, the original becomes barely recognizable.               


     


 


 

[Tom_Doak]

I think what would be interesting would be to see architects list the new ideas that they have introduced to the game and into their golf course designs that have not been done before.  I realize not many architects post here so if we know of novel ideas, we can list them for them.  Would any of Desmond Muirhead's ideas qualify?  Some of his work is way out there.  How about some of Jim Engh's work?  Was he one of the first to use black bunkers? Maybe not. What about RTJ and crushing lava to build courses on otherwise completely hostile land?  I guess that is construction novelty not design novelty.

Hey Mark,


Well, for starters, right now I am building three lost holes from The Lido that Macdonald himself deemed cool enough to qualify for his unbounded course:  the 6th, 15th, and 18th, designed by an amateur, Tom Simpson, and Dr MacKenzie respectively.  For that matter, Lido’s Cape (hole 5) is pretty unusual and of course even that lover of classics Mr Macdonald claimed the Cape was his own idea.


Or, you could tell us where the 13th green at High Pointe, the sixth hole at Pacific Dunes, or the 4th at Barnbougle were done before.  Or the 16th or 17th at Ballyneal.


I think all of those are better examples of original, template-worthy designs than black sand bunkers or mermaid-shaped holes, but apparently you confuse novelty with originality.

[Tom_Doak]

Professor Doak,


The reason I brought up Prince Puckler (his full name was a bit ornate: Prince Hermann von Puckler-Muskau) specifically is he was a rather accomplished German landscape architect in the early 1800's. My recollection is he was quoted by C.B. Macdonald in Scotland's Gift and again, paraphrasing, that the constant search for novelty was the providence of "uncultivated minds."


My cranial functions are no longer as Aspy accurate as they once were, so when I get home later, I'll look up the specific words - but I believe that is fairly close to the substance of his point. Again, I'll have to look up the specific words, but I believe C.B. was using Puckler's words to bolster his belief in using "tried and true" arrangements in landscape architecture.

Gib:


I’m down with the thought that attempts at “novelty” usually end badly - that’s the adjective I would use for Mermaid holes - but that does not preclude room for original designs, as Macdonald himself claimed for the Cape.


The most insulting part of the whole discussion, to me, is the suggestion that someone who managed to create an original design should then turn around and start reproducing it over and over.

[Sean_A]

From Sara Mess, of all people:

“Do you think the standard ‘templates’ would be templates if Macdonald/Raynor/Banks wouldn’t have built/identified them?”

I said, “hell no.”

Your response? And justification. Mine coming later.

Kyle

Yes, I do think essential elements of early designs would have been utilised by later archies if CB Mac never lived. I doubt an archie would have built a career around the loud proclamations of these design elements the way CB Mac did.

We essentially have Colt, Dr Mac and CB Mac doing the same thing with the Redan concept around the same time frame. I still highly doubt Dr Mac knew nothing of CB Mac's Redan, the original Redan or Colt's 4th at Swinley when he came up Gibraltar. We must remember that Dr Mac used the Redan idea at Alwoodley when more land became available and he used the Road Hole concept at Weston super Mare. He just wasn't loud about reusing concepts.


Tom


Was Cape an original CB Mac idea? I don't think so.

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

From Sara Mess, of all people:


“Do you think the standard ‘templates’ would be templates if Macdonald/Raynor/Banks wouldn’t have built/identified them?”


I said, “hell no.”


Your response? And justification. Mine coming later.

I realized I never addressed this original question.


Macdonald’s ideas were inspired by the Great Hole Discussion which took place in the UK just after 1900.  That was where the Redan, the Eden, the Alps, and the Road hole (among others) were deemed the best holes in the game.  I think if Macdonald hadn’t promoted them, other designers inevitably would have.


But the Short and the Biarritz and the Double Plateau?  No way.

[Tom_Doak]

From Sara Mess, of all people:

“Do you think the standard ‘templates’ would be templates if Macdonald/Raynor/Banks wouldn’t have built/identified them?”

I said, “hell no.”

Your response? And justification. Mine coming later.

Tom


Was Cape an original CB Mac idea? I don't think so.

Ciao

I think you could make the case that the tee shot was based on Emmet’s drawing of the 10th at Westward Ho!, but Macdonald was pretty proud of putting a green out on a point for the original 14th at NGLA (not the current green).

[Niall C]

We essentially have Colt, Dr Mac and CB Mac doing the same thing with the Redan concept around the same time frame. I still highly doubt Dr Mac knew nothing of CB Mac's Redan, the original Redan or Colt's 4th at Swinley when he came up Gibraltar. We must remember that Dr Mac used the Redan idea at Alwoodley when more land became available and he used the Road Hole concept at Weston super Mare. He just wasn't loud about reusing concepts.

Sean

I'm not quite sure that is true. On a number of articles I dug up for new courses by MacKenzie there was mention of an Eden Hole or Short Hole. Now it may well be that the writer spotted the similarities without Mac pointing them out for him but it certainly suggests that Mac was building to a fairly strong template. Also IIRC didn't Mac state in the Spirit of St Andrews that he'd never seen the Redan before he designed and built Gibraltar.

Niall 

[Niall C]

From Sara Mess, of all people:


“Do you think the standard ‘templates’ would be templates if Macdonald/Raynor/Banks wouldn’t have built/identified them?”


I said, “hell no.”


Your response? And justification. Mine coming later.

To answer the OP question directly, I think the answer is probably no. That's not to say there wouldn't be templates and perhaps even some of the same ones, but probably not all the same ideas as prominently.

Niall

[Adam Lawrence]

From Sara Mess, of all people:

“Do you think the standard ‘templates’ would be templates if Macdonald/Raynor/Banks wouldn’t have built/identified them?”

I said, “hell no.”

Your response? And justification. Mine coming later.

Kyle

Yes, I do think essential elements of early designs would have been utilised by later archies if CB Mac never lived. I doubt an archie would have built a career around the loud proclamations of these design elements the way CB Mac did.

We essentially have Colt, Dr Mac and CB Mac doing the same thing with the Redan concept around the same time frame. I still highly doubt Dr Mac knew nothing of CB Mac's Redan, the original Redan or Colt's 4th at Swinley when he came up Gibraltar. We must remember that Dr Mac used the Redan idea at Alwoodley when more land became available and he used the Road Hole concept at Weston super Mare. He just wasn't loud about reusing concepts.

I’m pretty certain that Gibraltar predates Swinley.

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